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"That makes no sense. How can an 11kw charger be 3-4 times faster?"
11kw 3 phase is not just 3.8kw more than 7.2kw single phase, its a lot more.
The left cable in the picture is charging a 67 plate Mitsubishi PHEV, the driver lives further away than the battery range so the vehicles battery is fully discharged when he arrives in the morning, when he goes for lunch at 1300 the battery was only 65% charged on the 7.2kw charger - now its 90% (but as charging rate reduces as the battery gets full its difficult to calculate how much quicker)
The right cable is charging a 19 plate Merc EQ diesel hybrid E class & the driver lives within the vehicles battery range.
From the drivers app, the data shows:
7.2kw single phase charging from 12% to 90% takes 4h56m
11kw 3 phase charging from 10% to 90% takes 1h36m
7.2kw single phase charging from 10% to 90% takes 4h50m
11kw 3 phase charging from 11% to 90% takes 1h39m
I still don't understand that - surely you can't cheat physics.
What size battery is it charging and is that 3 phase charger 32A?
Merc EQ diesel hybrid E class
From the drivers app, the data shows:
7.2kw single phase charging from 12% to 90% takes 4h56m
11kw 3 phase charging from 10% to 90% takes 1h36m
11kW 3 phase is a 230V ac 16A charger, 7.2kW single phase likely a 230V 32A charger. The 11kW really is 2.8kW more.
So I think that’s a 13.5kWh battery no?
So in both instances it’s putting in around 10.9kWh.
So the 11kW charger has an effective charge rate of 6.8kW across 96 minutes.
And the 7.2kW charger 2.2kW.
Something other than the charger is throttling that process.
I suspect the car’s on board charger (AC/DC conversion etc) can’t handle 32A of input on a single phase (probably not on 3 phase either).
A 10A onboard capability in the 3 phase AC bit of the car’s charger, would give roughly those charge times.
Bigger chargers are not always the answer.
More phases? Possibly.
More convenience? Almost definitely
On my eGolf it cant charge faster than 7kW unless you use a DC connection then it will go up to 50kW so for us it would be pointless getting a faster charger installed at home. Take about 3 hours to charge though (the range isn't great compared to other electric cars mind) unless you are really low on battery and then the first 20% or so is at about 3.5kW rate. We have a 32a breaker for the charging point.
but as charging rate reduces as the battery gets full its difficult to calculate how much quicker
In a big way on 100kw+ DC, sure, but not really relevant on 11kw (or whatever speed) AC.
As above, something else is throttling the single phase example. If a car's on board charger limits single phase to 2.2kw (so essentially 3 pin plug speed) for the whole charge that would be potentially seriously limiting, although less so for a hybrid sized battery.
There are a few cars that can only charge at 3kw per phase, so they will charge at 11kw on a 3-phase supply but only 3kw on a single phase supply; they are fine in Europe with more common 3-phase supplies but pretty pointless in the UK. The skoda citigo-ev is one of them; might the car above be another?
Most cars with a 7kw single phase charger will charge slower on an 11kw 3-phase supply than they will on a 7kw single phase supply. Trying to charge a pure EV at 3kw is something I'd do only if I had no other options, it's veeeeery slow indeed.
Order placed for my VW ID 3 this afternoon. Delivery date requested for May 21 when my current contract expires.
I think the ID3 is a great car. My SiL has just got one in white and it looks fantastic in the flesh. Her husband picked it up from St Albans and drove it home to Northumberland with 1 splash and dash at a rapid charger halfway up. I’m trying to convince my wife to get one.
It’s what I was going to go for but they were delayed, they then released just before my E-Tron arrived. They do look good but I’m not sure about the interior, need a proper look at one.
@nickewen @luket thanks chaps, really enjoying the car so far. Mind bendingly fast, and I come from a background of riding superbikes, so that’s saying something!
Lost my supercharger virginity this evening. So easy, it’s how all charging networks should be. Although it’s going to cost me a fortune in Costa hot chocolate.
(ID3) Drum brakes on rear (! Didn’t we get told 30 yrs ago disks were far better?)
Must admit, I thought that when I watched a review of the car.
But then I thought, given the regen of the electric motors, drums are probably more than sufficient at the back so why carry the expense of disks?
Mind bendingly fast, and I come from a background of riding superbikes, so that’s saying something!
I think the biggest noticeable difference is they don’t pause at any point, they just seem to accelerate faster the quicker you go.
@bensales welcome to the future!
Since my 6 months free elapsed I've barely used a supercharger. In about 20k miles over mainly 200 mile journeys. Unless you're doing seriously long journeys you might be the same. So you might get away with only very little money spent on shit coffee.
Don't tell anyone we don't much rely on charging networks though. Motoring journalists' brains would explode.
But then I thought, given the regen of the electric motors, drums are probably more than sufficient at the back so why carry the expense of disks?
Given how little the brakes on an EV actually get used, could drum brakes be better in terms of maintenance? I can't imagine disc brakes being very good if they don't get used much, whereas drum brakes are more enclosed and might not mind so much.
Don’t tell anyone we don’t much rely on charging networks though. Motoring journalists’ brains would explode.
My next car will be electric and I can't see me ever having to charge it away from the house based on the driving I do.
However, there is still a BIG problem to solve for those people who don't have a drive and for example live on a terraced street where their car could be parked 50 metres away from their house. And millions of people are in that situation.
I can’t imagine disc brakes being very good if they don’t get used much, whereas drum brakes are more enclosed and might not mind so much.
that makes sense yes.
Since my 6 months free elapsed I’ve barely used a supercharger. In about 20k miles over mainly 200 mile journeys. Unless you’re doing seriously long journeys you might be the same. So you might get away with only very little money spent on shit coffee
I didn’t really need to use a Supercharger last night, just there’s one close, I’ve got some free referral miles, and it was an excuse to drive the car! 😉
But that said, the Supercharger network was one of the key reasons I picked the Tesla. My job requires me to work away from home, stopping in hotels. So my driving is either tooling around town, or it’s long distance on a Monday, stay away, then long distance back home later in the week. The superchargers take all worry and hassle out of this kind of driving.
I think the ID3 is a great car. My SiL has just got one in white and it looks fantastic in the flesh.
I went for the standard grey as it was free. I opted for some alloys though:
However, there is still a BIG problem to solve for those people who don’t have a drive and for example live on a terraced street where their car could be parked 50 metres away from their house. And millions of people are in that situation.
Yeah this pops up ever EV thread, charging stations will help, on street chargers will be easy enough to install and then charging on route or destination.
@bensales the supercharger network should sort you out no trouble at all. However with your usage you might find quite a lot of AC options incidental to your parking/overnight stays.
I work 200 miles away a fair bit too, for a few days at a time, but it's always the same location and I can charge there. I now spend less time in service stations than I did with a diesel.
I don't think it makes a real difference unless you're a really heavy user but worth bearing in mind that super fast DC charging is worse for batteries than AC over the long term.
Re id3, I think it looks like a great car too. I don't read much but after seeing fully charged's glowing video of it I'm interested to see what the motoring journos dislike. And a little skeptical since they have a track record of rather missing the point on EVs. There were views that the software isn't great though, which would be annoying.
I would imagine the use of drum brakes is because on the rear in an emergency stop, which is pretty much what they're for assuming it's got decent regen, there isn't enough down force of tyre on road to make use of more stopping power. A lot of folks' experience of EVs is the friction brakes just don't get much use. I think this is my experience too although only 30k miles in so it'll be a while before I know anything about brake parts longevity.
I went 10k miles before I had to do a hard stop. I had it in the back of my mind til that point that my brakes felt a little rough. Turned out they just needed to see a bit of action and have been smooth since then.
Mine doesn’t use the brakes until it reaches .3G of force, or does seem to periodically apply the brakes at slow speed perhaps to clean the discs. It is disc all round but does weigh over 2 tonne.
The iD3 reminds me a bit of a Ford Focus, but it is nice looking and I do like the grey.
I've only had to charge my car a couple of times at home as I normally do it at work. Looks like i'll have to do it maybe once or twice over the Christmas period at home. I still haven't done a long enough journey to use a public or garage charger. Still hoping to get a 22kw charger fitted at work next year in our depot and not use the 7kw charger at the main office. Not as if there is a queue for them at the moment.
3G? Are you sure?!
Ooops! .3G that should read.
Agree with the comments about brakes, you don't need fancy ones because you don't use them very much! I sometimes amuse myself trying to complete a journey without touching the brake pedal. I'm also fun at parties.
I think with all the hype around the ID3, new bespoke platform, etc some people were expecting more wow factor. The new software is rolling out now too, journos will have driven much earlier cars with more bugs. It seems to just be a competent family hatchback with a few nice design touches and that’s ok really.
If anyone is interested in one and can move quickly, VW are desperate to get ID3s sold before the end of the year. Just over £25k will get you in a mid battery Life spec (lowest but decent spec) if you do it on VW finance.
Prossibly swapping my old model 3 for an ID.3 in the new year, I want a hatchback. Altho I have managed to get two medium MTBs into a model 3 with just the front wheels off, but I'd rather have a hatchback.
This looks very nice
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-5-reborn-electric-supermini
Doesn't it? I clocked that earlier. Long way off though and no specs. Assume it's more of a "concept".
Looks interesting.
Electric Berlingo later this year.
Just commercial one announced (including a crew van), really hoping I can get a passenger one by the time I change - perfect family/MTB/camping wagon.
Now that I have the PV installed its soon time to get my first EV. We will get an EV in the Spring/Summer to replace the, now too small because of my toddler, Panda 4x4. Also the second car will be replaced in the next couple of years if it starts to leak money.
So the question is: Which home charger for 2 cars? I understand that we likely only need to connect 1 at a time and the second could just be connected by a normal plug but what options are there for a dual connection charger.
We are lucky enough that we already have a 3 phase connection in the double garage.
Podpoint do a 22kW solo charger that requires 3 phase (as you note) which apparently is good for 90 miles of juice in the battery per hour. It is however twice the price of the nearest model which is the 7kW solo. I imagine the install and planning would be more involved too with more engagement with your DNO, but I have no direct experience with the faster home chargers. We do however have 3 phase coming into the house (our house services 4 semis in a block).
We have the 7kW solo and it gets 28 miles per hour into the battery which means I can get wake up to a full charge in my Model 3 regardless of state of charge when I plug it in. The slight complexity is that I only get cheap electricity (5ppkWh as opposed to 15ppkWh) between 0030-0430 so I need to plug the car in when it gets down to about 160 miles range to get it back up to 280 miles range (~85% in 'daily' rather than 100% 'trip' mode) to charge most cost effectively.
It looks like we will be getting an ID3 in the near future so this further complicates things.. and depending on mileage could quite easily end up having one or the other plugged in every night to ensure we're making the most of the cheap overnight rate.
It's crazy cheap in terms of fuel mind, a few quid and that's the Tesla charged!
Which apps bundled with chargers allow you to time when you want to charge?
Which apps bundled with chargers allow you to time when you want to charge?
I would imagine all of them do now as they have to be smart chargers (certainly to get the olev grant). Also most EV cars have that capability within their display menu and / or car app. Some of them ie my ohme charger / app can even do cheapest half hour segments for Agile Octopus leccy tariff
I don’t really touch the Pod-Point app. Just tell the car via the in-car functionality to only start charging at 0030. I can override it on the car app if I want it to start charging immediately.
I'm starting to window shop for the future.
Needs:
-seating for two.
-internal bike carrying for one and occasionally 2.
-150mile actual range - winter motorway.
-sub 8 second 0-60 (thats what my current car does and I'm loathe to go slower)
Wants:
-fun to drive (because life is too short do drive crap cars or ride crap bikes)
-4 wheel drive (not a deal breaker)
-fastback rear end (not a deal breaker)
sub £40k but lower is fine 🙂
Dislikes:
-stupid "crossover" ugly things. Hateful uncomfy seating position and wallowing in ICE iterations I have driven, maybe having all the weight in batteries under the floor will reduce this.
How are the e-trons so cheap on a big company scheme and so horrendously expensive for the private user?
Are BMW going to drop anything soon?
Are Leafs enjoyable to drive (do I just think they are going to be dull based on appearance?)
Have I talked myself into an ID3? (4wd and fastback excluded)
Do I really want a Tesla?
Re 22kW charge points, it's worth checking what your car's on-board charger capacity is. Mine is max 17kW so the 22kW charge point capacity is not my limiting factor. Still fast though - better than double 7kW. Most of the time it doesn't make a practical difference because I have all night, but on the occasion I want it faster it really seems like the thing is charged in no time.
If you have a 3 phase (and therefore higher capacity) connection won't the DNO be comfortable with a correspondingly higher charge point capacity?
Regardless, I'd certainly be looking to use 3 phase if you have it. When I did it the hardware was the same. Installation not, of course, but it's nice to have and would I guess be more than doubly so if we had 2 EVs.
ID4 is looking promising, and some VW discounting going on already. Looking at under £36k for 1st edition, 310 mile range. Can have the really neat foldaway towbar as a £850 option, can tow a ton.
I’m not a fan of SUV/crossover things but for roomy practical family cars these days it limits your options a lot to exclude them. Estates have become a much smaller niche these days.
Many (particularly EV ones) aren’t actually that tall, they’re just styled to look chunkier than they are. Conversely, the non-SUVs end up a bit taller than you’d expect to give room for the batteries in the floor. There’s only 44mm difference in height between a ID3 and ID4. A Leaf and eniro are only 5mm different.
Do I really want a Tesla?
Well, if you don't like crossovers (I don't either) then your choice is narrowed somewhat.
What are the negatives of a Tesla? There are some things that aren't as good as they should be but I wouldn't overplay the point. Some aspects of autopilot can be annoying. The auto wipers are below average - worse than on my old Mondeo. For an expensive car the headlights are also crap and the overall build quality is middling, but not awful. And just like every bloody one else they don't make a sensible estate car or hatch that would take bikes easily without spending ££££.
Oh, and it is galling that every new software update releases some new game you'll never play but doesn't fix the existing niggles.
The main positives for me are: I really like how it drives, in particular genuine one-pedal driving, and on motorways I really do use autopilot a lot. And of course range.
On autopilot, the negatives are almost entirely in the category of "should be better", not in the category of "makes the car worse". Overall it's made a real difference to my life to have it because I do a lot of long journeys. An example is it loses some functionality in the wet, which is a negative because you've paid for it and it should work, but it's still a lot better than not having it.
Folk get frothy about touchscreens but I don't, so long as they're good ones. there are pros and cons. Overall I think i prefer it.
Not unique to Tesla but a mistake I feel in EVs that don't take this approach, there's a sort of design ethos in that they pointedly have not tried to force things to mimic ICE, which means how the pedals work is a result of how the car works, i.e. accelerator pedal is motors - accelerate and regen, brake pedal is friction braking, which is powerful enough for nearly everything outside of an emergency. You know what you're getting and it leads you to drive as efficiently as you can, which is coincidentally also comfortable. Also no "start" button (or indeed any procedure on getting in at all).
I'd like to try a VW though.
I'm glad it's not just me on the lights and wipers. The very early SR+ came with fog lights and I've got into the habit of using them at night for a bit of extra light.
I’m not a fan of SUV/crossover things but for roomy practical family cars these days it limits your options a lot to exclude them. Estates have become a much smaller niche these days.
Many (particularly EV ones) aren’t actually that tall, they’re just styled to look chunkier than they are. Conversely, the non-SUVs end up a bit taller than you’d expect to give room for the batteries in the floor. There’s only 44mm difference in height between a ID3 and ID4. A Leaf and eniro are only 5mm different.
good to know, although I think that does put a halt to my shopping until I can do actual test drives and what not.
"practical family car" at the moment holds no interest to me. I'm all for electric cars for everyone eventually, but from both an environmental and financial perspective it makes more sense to run my current german diesel to its death.
If I did splurge a huge sum of money in the immediate future (most I've ever spent on a car is 8k) it needs to be a fun early-midlife-crisis-mobile that can snap my neck back and be a bit silly in on occasion (while also being able to take a mountain bike to fun places).
What electricity supplier/tarif are folk using?
We have an iD3 on order and a charger, but are currently with Bulb who don’t do cheaper power overnight.