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Surely this is an issue that many countries will face - revenue from fuel tax will be lost and so that will need to be found somewhere (unless you subscribe to certain economic theories). How are they doing this in places where EV adoption is ahead of the UK?
Yeah one way or another it was always going to happen.
Shame they didn't make the possibility for reporting the VIN of the car and the number of KWH a requirement of the smart charger spec (or maybe it is? I don't know).
One nice thing about charging per KWH is that it automatically charges more per mile for inefficient cars.
Of course 3 pin changers would be a loop hole, but it's a start.
Other than that I suppose the easiest way is with ANPR but as I pointed out on the gov thread, it could just drive traffic off the main roads onto rat-runs.
I understand the need to tax electric cars somehow.
However, what I do not understand is *how* mileage will be taxed.
Will this ignore it for 3 years then a bill attached to your MOT?
What about a black box tracker for all cars? We know how well acquainted IT problems and UK Govt are, let along mission creep when they realise the same black box can track your speeding or parking on double yellows outside the kebab shop...
What about self-declaration?
(etc)
You couldn't check against MOT mileage as those miles might not be in the UK. Allowing non UK miles to be removed would leave a loop hole you bet people would exploit. I suppose the other way would be to make you pay for non UK miles as well.
Some of my car mileage every year is driven on a circuit. You aint taxing me on that.
There are so many holes in this scheme...
Yes couldn't is too strong a word and non-UK miles will probably be a varnishy small amount of the total anyway. I'd go down the line of making it a tough shit your paying anyway rule. I bet in reality the amount it effected anyone individual would be tiny.
If you take it abroad, you'd need to self certify the non UK mileage.
Welcome big loop hole. Self certifying is just asking for abuse.
I am a recent EV driver and have been a bit shocked by the price of charging on motorways and at other public chargers. This will be a relatively rare thing for me as I do less than half a dozen long trips a year but for those that have to use them it seems pretty crazy. How can it cost more to do say 100 miles with public electric than diesel or petrol considering as how a massive chunk of the latter is tax?
Re the per mile tax will it just be a flat fee? Not sure a Citroen Ami should be paying the same rate as an Audi Q8
There are so many holes in this scheme
There isn't a scheme yet in which to have holes, is there?. The concept is just being discussed.
Welcome big loop hole. Self certifying is just asking for abuse.
Only if you always charge at home.
To charge at home you need to own it, have a driveway, and the money to pay for a charger. Which leaves the majority on the public network, which is already considerably more expensive than petrol or diesel. I'm not sure why French public charging is so much cheaper.
It doesn't help that the VAT on public network charging is a 20% and currently the VAT electricity on domestic electricity is 5%.
Some of my car mileage every year is driven on a circuit. You aint taxing me on that.
If it was an ICE, you'd be paying fuel duty(tax) on the petrol consumed on the track....
You couldn't check against MOT mileage as those miles might not be in the UK.
Couldn't this happen with fuel duty anyway? Fill up, get the Ferry... do miles in Europe with fuel you've paid duty on in UK. And of course the other way around.
Not sure a Citroen Ami should be paying the same rate as an Audi Q8
I suppose "keeping it simple" is going to be such a challenge, that flat rate for milage paired with a fixed yearly fee based on vehicle weight might be the compromise. The Ami could be zero rated for the later. Or both. Vehicles with such short range and such minimal road damage could be exempt. We need changes in UK law to fully make use of these super light electric vehicles anyway... they shouldn't be treated the same as a "car" in my opinion. They aren't elsewhere.
Re the per mile tax will it just be a flat fee? Not sure a Citroen Ami should be paying the same rate as an Audi Q8
Seems that is the proposal.
Of course a flat mileage rate also costs any rural dwellers more to simply do the weekly shop or hospital appointment etc.
New Zealand do it on a mileage basis, you buy RUC upfront as multiple blocks of 1000km and get a sticker showing what odometer reading you're paid up to. Used to be for diesel cars (no red diesel for off-road use) but they extended it to EVs and a lower rate for PHEVs. Sub 1000kg EVs don't pay it though, so an Ami or Microlino wouldn't pay.
There's roadside checks, and when the car gets the equivalent of an MOT. Of course, mileage blockers and easy odo correction make defrauding the system pretty easy for those who want to.
Implementation issues aside, I do think some sort of per mile taxation makes sense, people doing 30k miles a year should pay more than those doing 5k. So much of the running cost of a car is annual bills that don't discourage you from using it for everything. I'd rather a universal per mile system though, with (as in NZ) heavier stuff paying more, and if you choose a petrol or diesel you just pay more in running costs at the pumps.
I'm not sure why French public charging is so much cheaper.
France is mostly nuclear powered, with a good chunk of hydro and a growing bit of solar and wind. Small but shrinking gas part to top that up. So they have cheap base load and if it's particularly sunny or windy, plenty of spare power to get rid of. They also have a regulated tariff set by the state as EDF is state-owned.
Of course a flat mileage rate also costs any rural dwellers more to simply do the weekly shop or hospital appointment
Isn't the same true of fuel duty? Rural folk tend to need to travel further for such amenities so will use more fuel, and thus pay more fuel duty than their suburban counterpart.
Couldn't this happen with fuel duty anyway? Fill up, get the Ferry... do miles in Europe with fuel you've paid duty on in UK. And of course the other way around.
Yes but only at most 1 tank's worth of fuel duty. This proposal would count all mileage done out of the country.
My Mrs has family in France so we do quite a few miles in Europe.
Also it applies in reverse - this proposal would mean that foreign cars pay no duty for the energy the use to charge their car while in the UK.
So how will this work with PHEVs?
From the BBC article on this....
According to the Telegraph, EV drivers could be charged 3p per mile, on top of other road taxes, amounting to an extra £12 on a journey from London to Edinburgh. Drivers of hybrid cars would also be charged, but at a lower rate.
TWINGO IS GO !
I'm back thinking my old smoker Volvo 5cyl diesel is a better bet for the future now.
This year 3p, next year £3?
If/when it comes in, be prepared for fuel duty to also increase to maintain a differential tax benefit for those dropping diesel/petrol.
France is mostly nuclear powered, with a good chunk of hydro and a growing bit of solar and wind. Small but shrinking gas part to top that up. So they have cheap base load and if it's particularly sunny or windy, plenty of spare power to get rid of. They also have a regulated tariff set by the state as EDF is state-owned.
I'm not sure supply cost is the driver though: French tariffs aren't much cheaper than the UK and certainly don't account for the 30p or so difference in rapid charging costs. I feel there must be a different regulatory framework as you suggest.
My 5000 miles a year will cost me £150. I'm hoping this will be offset by cheaper fast DC charging when the new offshore and onshore wind comes online in the future 🤔.
My local pub might take the £150 hit as I try to balance my car expenditure against my luxury pub pints 🍺🤔😭🍺
This year 3p, next year £3?
Eh? Why would you think it'll go up? Anything could go up. What if there's a £200/l tax on diesel mmm? Makes you think...
They also have a regulated tariff set by the state as EDF is state-owned.
Only for members of the public up to 36kVA. Companies negotiate with suppliers of which EDF is one of many like anywhere else in Europe. As the capacity of the European grid increases and sellers become more international prices around Europe are equalling out. In France that has meant some big increases.
I think the reason that charging in the UK is so expensive is simply profiteering due to a lack of real competition. The arrival of Tesla has resulted in Total Energy reducing their prices at the same sites in France, and both know they are competing with cheaper public charge networks, supermarkets etc..
The number of SM posts I see saying people will go back to petrol if there's a mileage tax is insane. You liked paying 2p a mile, but 5p is too much. So your solution is to pay 15p? What?
I'm hoping this will be offset by cheaper fast DC charging when the new offshore and onshore wind comes online in the future
Until there is change to the UK wholesale marginal price policy that effectively pegs all electricty prices to the most expensive being produced at any given time (usually gas) it won't make much difference.
I’m a bit in two minds on the mileage tax. On the one hand there is a lot of revenue generated by fuel duty and whatever you think about the need to balance the books, it was always obvious that this chancellor (like most of them) was going to want to recover that lost revenue from somewhere. EV drivers being the obvious choice. So I can’t really complain as I knew it would happen. By the same token I don’t really expect those cheap (7p/kwh) overnight deals to last much longer either.
On the other hand it feels as though the transition to EVs, while possibly unstoppable now, is happening more slowly than we would like. There is a lot of push back from obvious sources and it does feel as though things are somewhat in the balance. So this feels a bit too early.
Of course, this is classic treasury kite flying (“leak” a policy to test the reaction) and they may feel that they have to bring this in early or risk not being able to do it at all. Currently most people do not drive an EV and everyone thinks someone else should pay more tax. So it’s politically fairly easy to bring it in now (petrolheads will love it I’m sure). Wait a few more years and the number of people affected will increase making it politically much harder to introduce. Establish the principle now while it is popular may be the treasury thinking on this one.
Re the per mile tax will it just be a flat fee? Not sure a Citroen Ami should be paying the same rate as an Audi Q8
Instinctively seems right to me.
Anyway, just came to post this https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-could-cut-prices-4-5-twingo-if-eus-e-car-class-approved
Re the per mile tax will it just be a flat fee? Not sure a Citroen Ami should be paying the same rate as an Audi Q8
Instinctively seems right to me.
Anyway, just came to post this https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-could-cut-prices-4-5-twingo-if-eus-e-car-class-approved
Ugh, post disappeared
There's some stuff about a proposal to make a new small cars category https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-could-cut-prices-4-5-twingo-if-eus-e-car-class-approved
Ugh, post disappeared
There's some stuff about a proposal to make a new small cars category https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-could-cut-prices-4-5-twingo-if-eus-e-car-class-approved
Ugh, post disappeared
There's some stuff about a proposal to make a new small cars category https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-could-cut-prices-4-5-twingo-if-eus-e-car-class-approved
I like the idea of a protected cheaper small class of cars. It would help stop car size inflation I think.
i reached 125mph.... the 'chicken foot' kicked in and I had to hit the brake before flying off the corner!
DrP
Nice....they are limited to 127mph/205kph (as I found out in Germany)
What a great job Renault have done on their range of smallish Evs, those all look brilliant and recognisably Renault just at a glance.
Love the idea of a European 'kei' car category.
Just clicked over 1000 miles in the Scenic. It's a really solid car, if not exciting. Quick enough, smooth and refined, and the interior is really nicely designed and screwed together. I'm averaging about 4 m/kW with a mix of motorway (50%), A and B roads, and some city driving. I love Google Automotive built in, it just works. The single button for all the ADAS systems is really easy, and for the base spec car, the Techno, it's really well spec'd.
As a dyed in the wool German car fanboi I love the Renault offerings at the moment. I suspect a 5 if not the Alpine version will be coming to casa OTS in the new year
We also have a 5 at top of the list when replacing our A1 at the end of next year. I am a real fan of my EV3 so will be interested to see how the EV2 compares to the 5 when it comes out next year.
Definitely not one for a small cars category but this was delivered yesterday. Proper luxobarge with delightful levels of waftage. Base spec but, unusually for a German car, they come loaded with toys as standard
Apologies for my duplicate posting flusterpuck up there /\/\