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Ask what 'battery' those Genesis battery tests are 'seeing' as , as a user the 0 and 100 on a kia/Hyundai and Genesis arent the real battery numbers. There's a buffer at each end to stop the user damaging the battery
All cars have that buffer. It might be different sizes in different cars. And the reporting is certainly different across different manufacturers, or it was in the past.
Apologies it was the i4s with the 94% battery scores. The car360 website only sells EVs and gives a Aviloo battery score for every car they have for sale. BMWs and Volvos generally have a poorer battery health score than similar age E-GMP cars (Kia/Hyundai/Genesis)
Yes, it's not clear how the reporting varies. People have calculated how much charge cars accept vs what their SoH says, and they get pretty different results. And whilst we know the claimed nominal and usable capacities of a car's battery - in my case it's usable 39kWh, nominal 40.4kWh, we don't know if the true capacity is higher still. I think that when cells are made they vary, some have more capacity than others, which is why cars have balancing algorithms. Depending on how conservative this is it might vary i.e. if you are advertising 40.4kWh nominal you might be saying that it needs to be at least 40.4 but if you are being conservative your car might really have 41 or 42. If your car's BMS is settling on 37kWh of real usable capacity, is that 37/38 = 97% SoH, is it 37/40.4 = 92% or is it 37/88 = 88% SoH? If the latter, then your car would be showing 110% or something when new but they would probably cap that at 100%. Or they could report the percentage loss which would be 42-37/40.4 or.. 87% We just don't know 🙂
It's also clear that one manufacturer's 50kWh isn't the same as another's. When the Peugeot e208 was launched it boasted 50kWh battery. People asumed that would be the equivalent of the Zoe 52kWh but the Peugeot had 55km less range and they were disappointed. Peugeot/Opel then upgraded to 52kWh and gained 60km from the 2kWh announced increase in battery capacity. The Zoe 40 and Zoe 52 have the same battery pack but the electronics limit the 40 to 75% use of the battery's total capacity with the aim of making it bomb proof. IMO better buy a 52 so you have the capacity if you need it but avoid using the top 15% and bottom 10%.
If any petrolheads are still following this thread have a read through this, it might convince you to buy an EV:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adu4132
Along the same lines re battery health - we know that lithium ion batteries degrade a bit early in their lives then it flattens out. We know this scientifically and it's also borne out in the stats from Telsas that were published a few years back. But most people's Hyundai cars stay at 100% for years so it's clearly not the true battery capacity. But they aren't lying as such, because the predicted range numbers stay consistent throughout that period. So you are still getting 100% of what the car let you use when it was new - even though the battery cannot truly be 100%.
I've found the same with both Zoes I've owned. The battery must be losing capacity (at five and a half years old) but because it's only the headroom it makes no difference to predicted or actual range.
All cars have that buffer. It might be different sizes in different cars. And the reporting is certainly different across different manufacturers, or it was in the past.
Oh no they don't. 100% in some cars really is 100%
Anyone had a good look at the BYD and Jaecoo offerings. I dont like the big electric cars but the Jaecoo's seem to be fantastic value for money if you want a Kia Sportage type vehicle.
More interested in the BYD Dolphin. It looks to be the small electric car i think is going to be the bigger market for evhicles. Might see if they will do an extended test drive for me to check it out.
Such as, wbo?
Actually, just checked out the BYD dolphin Surf. Once all the deposit contributions and dealer discounts are done on their 0% offer you are paying £16,500 for a brand new car with 5 years servicing.
I recently skimmed through auto trader to see what electric cars are on offer. I took a look at the Jaecoo 5, byd atto 3, dolphin surfs, kgm torres evx and the maxus pickups. I think I'll look every 6 months to keep on top of current 2nd hand pricing. I'm not in any rush to change from my ioniq but probably would consider an offering from a less well known manufacturer next.
I've found the same with both Zoes I've owned. The battery must be losing capacity (at five and a half years old) but because it's only the headroom it makes no difference to predicted or actual range.
What mileage have you done? Stuff I've read says battery degradation on EVs is much less severe than was expected. Tesla's have the most data and have been around the longest but they're showing close to 90% capacity at 10 years/200k miles.
5 years and low mileage deterioration could be really minor.
Yes, low mileage, 47 000km IIRC.
How are you measuring degradation on the Zoe, be interesting to see what our 19 plate with 12k miles is saying.
Same journey, same optimum Summer conditions, same percentage remaining. Not the most accurate measure I know. I was expecting some decrease in range by 5 years even on a low mileage.
It's the same with my solar panels, I send a bill off every year for the production and was expecting some long term decline over the 16 years but production just reflects annual variations in sunshine.
Ah ok, no secret menu option then. We are still on a battery lease (not worth buying out) so shouldn't be an issue anyway for this car.
Anyone had a good look at the BYD and Jaecoo offerings. I dont like the big electric cars but the Jaecoo's seem to be fantastic value for money if you want a Kia Sportage type vehicle.
Seeing loads of these about now. They look pretty decent, it will be interesting to see how well they hold up.
I was watching a video about why Audi's EV growth in China has tailed off and they said part of the reason was European cars are generally designed/built for a longer expected lifespan, therefore are much more expensive to design/manufacture than Chinese domestic cars.
Audi have a sister brand for China (confusingly called 'A.U.D.I' but without the four rings logo) which is produced in partnership with a Chinese manufacturer (SAIC IIRC) to Chinese longevity standards and is therefore far cheaper than the real VAG designed Audi cars. Wonder if they will sell that here at some point...
Also did anyone manage to snag the £139/pcm Puma deal, gutted I missed it, nowhere local has them any more.
5 years and low mileage deterioration could be really minor.
Mileage has very little to do with it or actually it can have an inverse relationship. A traditional ideal secondhand ICE (especially petrol) purchase could be an immaculate ultra low mileage 'granny' car that has sat on the drive for most of its life. An EV that has been in this situation (especially if stored fully charged without use for days on end as many are) will almost certainly have a higher battery degradation than a car with average miles that has had its battery cycled repeatedly on a regular basis.
Whilst I agree that leaving stored fully charge will cause degradation, cycling also results in quite predictable degradation as we discussed on this thread some time back. I mentioned the oft quoted 1000 cycle battery life and backed it up with graphs but that damage can be limited by charging and discharging in the middle of the charge range rather than using in the ends - it's what I do when I can.
5 years and low mileage deterioration could be really minor.
Mileage has very little to do with it or actually it can have an inverse relationship. A traditional ideal secondhand ICE (especially petrol) purchase could be an immaculate ultra low mileage 'granny' car that has sat on the drive for most of its life. An EV that has been in this situation (especially if stored fully charged without use for days on end as many are) will almost certainly have a higher battery degradation than a car with average miles that has had its battery cycled repeatedly on a regular basis.
Maybe, I genuinely don't know. But battery degradation was one of the major concerns about EVs for many people and theres increasing evidence that it doesn't seem to be a major issue either with age or heavy use. More than that, few people are using the max range of their EV's on a regular basis - average UK annual mileage is c7500 miles - <150 miles a week - so they're only going to need to charge about once a week.
cycling also results in quite predictable degradation as we discussed on this thread some time back
The concept of a 'cycle' seems meaningless to me, because whilst we are told that any switch from discharging to charging constitutes a cycle - i.e. even if you don't charge or discharge fully - this happens thousands of times on any trip because you brake and accelerate all the time. So that doesn't apply to EV batteries really. There was also a study recently that showed that exact duty cycle - charge and discharge all the time with a middling SoC is actually much better for longevity than traditional lab based tests which may not reflect EV usage.
The concept of a 'cycle' seems meaningless to me, because whilst we are told that any switch from discharging to charging constitutes a cycle - i.e. even if you don't charge or discharge fully - this happens thousands of times on any trip because you brake and accelerate all the time. So that doesn't apply to EV batteries really. There was also a study recently that showed that exact duty cycle - charge and discharge all the time with a middling SoC is actually much better for longevity than traditional lab based tests which may not reflect EV usage.
Yeah sometimes you see they use 'equivalent full cycles' to attempt to account for this.
Re e-bikes are the chargers and battery management systems as sophisticated as EVs? - in terms of reducing the charge rate as the battery fills and in overly cold or hot conditions, I doubt it. In which case like my mtb lights, I suspect the degradation of the battery could be significant over a short period relative to whats's being seen with cars.
Re e-bikes are the chargers and battery management systems as sophisticated as EVs? - in terms of reducing the charge rate as the battery fills and in overly cold or hot conditions, I doubt it
I can't speak for every single e bike system, but the battery/charger on my ebike (with the tq system) does take account of the state of charge of the battery and slow down the rate of charge as it gets near to 100%,it also changes the rate of charge depending on temperature, and prevents charging if too cold/hot etc.
I'd imagine most of the big motor systems are similar.
After 4 years of pain free owneership, the eTron is going at the end of the month. It's the launch model, 55 basic spec and been pretty faultless, in fact the only thing I can remember needing on it was a new gps sensor.
Looking at options, there are some great deals on a Hyundai Ioniq 6 (Ultimate, AWD, Long range) and a Polestar 4 (Dual motor 100kw). At the moment, the Hyundai is edging it on price and the bad feedback I'm reading about the tech in the Polestar.
Thoughts? I am VERY tempted to just buy a Renault 5, but the price difference doesn't justify the lack of space that I occasionally need.
I love the Ioniq 6 but of those two I might choose the Polestar. Both awesome cars, just test them out.
There still seems to be an ICCU issue on Ioniqs, but not sure how prevalent it is on recent cars or on UK models.
Renault 5 is certainly easier to look at than an Ioniq 6. A mate's got the 5 and is very pleased with it.
Polestar 4's the one with no rear window isn't it? Don't know anyone with a Polestar but was wary of the Google OS when I was looking, but that's mainly because I'm not an Android OS person.
Renault 5 is certainly easier to look at than an Ioniq 6
100%
I prefer the Ioniq 5 to the 6, but the deals aren't as good and not worth £100 a month extra.
Completely different cars though. Renault 5 is a small cheap car, Ioniq 6 is a pretty nice and a decent size, a Polestar 4 is a luxury car.
As usual Molly your laser like logic cuts through the crap.
I'm just at that point where I don't really know what I want or actually need tbh.
An Ioniq 5 N Line looks good, but my midlife crisis is on the wane thankfully.
Re. the Renault 5, cheap?
Not really
If you buy an Ioniq 6, you will have to look at it. So my answer would be literally anything else.
After 4 years of pain free owneership, the eTron is going at the end of the month. It's the launch model, 55 basic spec and been pretty faultless, in fact the only thing I can remember needing on it was a new gps sensor
Good to hear, I have killed a the parking sensors on mine but otherwise generally reliable (other than frozen mirrors).
If you buy an Ioniq 6, you will have to look at it. So my answer would be literally anything else.
It's hard to argue with this view.
Skoda Enyaq Coupe vRS?
Re battery life - I posted an article a few weeks ago about a long term battery test in an ID3 where it lost 9% capacity over 4 years and 107,000 miles of ownership....but that equated to only 8 miles because at the same time software updates were increasing efficiency of how the battery was used.
Of course I don't know how inefficient battery-drivetrain systems are and as more is learned then there is less efficiency to be improved - diminishing returns, etc., but equally as battery tech continues to evolve I suspect there may be degradation and efficiency offsets for some time yet as it goes from new tech into understood into 'we've eked everything there is to know out of it'
Edit - found it
I'm just at that point where I don't really know what I want or actually need tbh
At the risk of banging on the same old drum, in your position (which I will be next year) I’d be getting a Genesis GV60. (Which I will, again)
I’m biased though… and can’t wait for the spicy Magma edition to be released.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92e6XM0kqRE
It's hard to argue with this view.
It is my speciality though so I will. I love them.
Renault 5 is certainly easier to look at than an Ioniq 6. A mate's got the 5 and is very pleased with it.
Polestar 4's the one with no rear window isn't it? Don't know anyone with a Polestar but was wary of the Google OS when I was looking, but that's mainly because I'm not an Android OS person.
me neither, which is a bit of a worry. test drive booked for Saturday though 🤞
You can buy three basic spec R5s for the price of a top spec Polestar 4, not sure why they're on the same shortlist 🙂
The Google OS is Android Automotive. This just means Polestar have bought the infotainment off Google rather than developing it in house, which given the inevitable shitness of all car infotainments at some point seems like a great idea. It's customisable by the car vendor though so should be just like any other infotainment but better. One would assume that if you're already a Google user it integrates with your other activities but one would hope it's not mandatory.
I've got a mate who changes his cars more often than I shave because they always piss him off in one way or another. He now has a Polestar 2 and seems happier with it than at any previous point. Early days though!
Wouldn't bother with the vRS coupe if you want space, just go for the regular Enyaq vRS. I've got the VW ID5 so same shape etc and same silly glass roof that isn't loadbearing. Skoda doesn't even have a retractable shade I don't think.