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EV's aren't as environmentally guilt free as you might think at first impressions. The CO2 in producing a new one isn't insignificant; volvo's analysis of the EX30 suggests about 14-18 tonnes [1]. By my calculations that is equivalent to about50 000 - 70 000 miles in a diesel car doing 45 mpg. So for folks cranking up really high mileages, it is a definate environmental win - although the practicalities may be limiting for some use cases. However, for people doing lower milage, keeping an old petrol or diesel running is likely better.
There also isn't zero environmetal impact from running an EV. The UK grid relies on a significant amount of gas generation. When I did the sums comparing an ID buzz to a diesel caddy for motorway usage, for a given journey the CO2 for carging the buzz would be around 1/4 the diesel in the caddy. So, a lot better, but still not entirely guilt free. I really want an excuse to get a buzz but running the caddy until it dies is the lower CO2 option. As ever, the environmentally best solution is to sit at home not going anywhere!
This has been done to death - the delta from an ICE to an EV of equivalent size is around 8t of CO2. This assuming an 80kWh battery and as such there’s only around 55-70kg of lithium in a 400kg pack.
That 8t delta will be offset in the first 10-15k miles on the UKs current electricity mix which is around 71% renewables and climbing annually.
This doesn’t even include the carbon footprint associated with the extraction, transportation, refining and further transportation of the fuel you need for your ICE. The only way an ICE does not make sense is if you’re running an old car already and doing tiny mileage.
I can’t justify replacing my 330 petrol touring as I only do 1000miles a year and the sunk cost of an EV would be almost 20y at that mileage.
Difficult to know longevity as it's still quite new tech but I've seen estimates of 1500-2000 charge/ discharge cycles before being significantly degraded. A fairly average sized car will probably have a say 200m range, so that is 300-400,000 miles potential lifespan (of course other parts will wear too, possibly faster)
So the 50-70k break even point vs keeping an existing diesel running isn't a fair comparison, as after that 50-70k that will be someone else's second hand car, etc., and creating further credit. Even if the car is eventually scrapped at that point, there will be a second hand market for the battery in eg: home power walls.
No, because it already exists, which is my point: Running an old ICE vehicle for longer is lower CO2 in a lot of cases than replacing it with a new car
We now run two second hand (both 3yo) EVs, didn't create any CO2 building them. Just saving CO2 vs another pre-existing pair of ICE cars.
Point taken on electricity not being CO2 free - currently - but it will largely be eventually, whereas ICE cars will still be burning fuel (maybe biodiesel) but still not avoiding the emission issue.
finally got round to sorting out a new car for my wife. Started looking before Christmas and nearly bought a 1 year old Fiat 500e but it fell through. Today she decided on a Hyundai Inster. You get much more for your money with the Inster plus it’s a bit like a tardis inside for such a small car. Due for delivery start of May. Guess we will be fighting over the home charger now!
However, for people doing lower milage, keeping an old petrol or diesel running is likely better.
That old diesel was new once. So your personal carbon footprint might be lower but this isn't about personal totals it's about the entire world collectively. We can't all buy old cars, someone has to buy new ones so that they can become old, and replace the ones that are being scrapped or crashed.
Of course, keeping cars for longer does indeed reduce emissions of a sort - but also increases other pollution in the air that we breathe in our local environment. So if you are going to buy a new car, make it electric. If you weren't going to buy one - well that's a trickier question. If you buy a new EV then at some point you'll sell it to someone else, so you are increasing the supply of used EVs to people who need a new car but would not otherwise being able to afford an EV...
Anyway. I answered someone's post on an Ioniq Electric FB page about their new car and only after she replied did I realise it was my cousin. Not sure if my posting on the group had raised the profile of EVs with her or it's just a coincidence.
I'm always baffled by the "the most ecologically friendly option is to continue running an older car" as an argument against EVs.*
There is no plan to force everyone to buy new cars and scrap old ones at any rate other than the natural one that already existed.
This is all about displacing new ICE car production with EV car production. EVs should last just as long as ICE cars or not a bit longer as the battery & motor should last longer then an IC engine, however what finally kills off most old cars isn't a.catastrophic engine failure but the increasing bills due to rust and worn parts & some of which are engine related but a lot are suspension, brakes, car electrics etc which are the same for both. So my guess is on a average EVs will be on the road for about 20-30% longer than equivalent ICEs. Only time will tell though.
* The most environmentally friendly option is no car at all, however that is a very different discussion involving lifestyle and societal changes. Arguably EVs are a facilitator / greenwashing perpetuating car use when actually we should be moving away from cara full stop.
The most environmentally friendly option is no car at all, however that is a very different discussion involving lifestyle and societal changes. Arguably EVs are a facilitator / greenwashing perpetuating car use when actually we should be moving away from cara full stop.
Maybe, but not having cars would require VAST infrastructure changes or would consolidate people into cities, whereas spreading us out a bit enables distributed solar and other forms of power generation, which is beneficial.
This is all about displacing new ICE car production with EV car production.
That is one argument - if people are buying new cars anyway, then they should be electric. The other argument is not to buy new cars at all - and fix old ones. Yes, it might be expensive to fix an old car, but it's never as expensive as a new one. The reason people stop fixing old cars is because it's more expensive than changing it - but if fewer new cars were bought, older ones would become more valuable and therefore more likely to be worth fixing. That's the argument being made here.
Persuading everyone not to buy new cars is a really hard sell however, but persuading them to buy an EV should be a lot easier. And an electrified national fleet has many other advantages. There is a long term ideological goal here and a pragmatic short term one.
Anyway - speaking of new cars, the Volvo ES90 looks mint, this might have gone straight in at no 1 for me.
(well done mert)
When it comes to environmental arguments, I find it's quite easy to argue myself around in circles. So, let's take a real-world case. Mine 🙂
I have a 7 year old car (which I've had from new) that has done 150,000 miles. Is it better environmentally for me to keep it for another (say) three years and 60,000 miles, or sell it and buy a second hand EV?
We can assume that, if I sell it, the next owner will probably do a lot less than 60,000 miles over the next three years. I think the average annual mileage in the UK is something like 7,500 but a look at the online MOT data for the last two cars I sold (both around 7 years and 150,000 miles) suggests that they do a lot less than that. I guess a car with a high mileage for its age tends to appeal to somebody who doesn't drive many miles.
I'm currently torn between quite liking the idea of an EV and quite liking the idea of driving a car to 200,000 miles, so this could help to break the tie.
I have a 7 year old car (which I've had from new) that has done 150,000 miles. Is it better environmentally for me to keep it for another (say) three years and 60,000 miles, or sell it and buy a second hand EV?
Given that both cars currently exist then any environmental impact from the manufacture of them has already occurred so, from your perspective, are neutral . Same goes for the ultimate disposal of them at the end of their life, that's going to happen to the environment no matter which you choose.
Which means that it's only the ongoing impact of running the car which counts for your decision... so electric is the environmentally sounder choice, no? Especially if you're planning on doing big miles in it.
You can't really base a decision on an imagined usage by a subsequent owner. It could be a granny going a mile to church once a week or it could be used as a pool car by a county lines drug gang, you have no way of knowing or controlling that.
Given that both cars currently exist then any environmental impact from the manufacture of them has already occurred so, from your perspective, are neutral
Is that true? Surely, if I buy a car off somebody then they have to go and buy a new(er) one. Similarly, if I sell mine to somebody then they probably pass theirs on too. Whether it is me buying (or scrapping) the car, isn't the net result of my decision still that a new car is bought and an old one scrapped? You are right that I have no control over either, but if I don't sell mine (and buy a newer one) then the person above me in the chain won't have the money to buy a new one.
Just dipping in here and not a current EV driver.
So, what is the current used EV equivalent of a used skoda octavia estate please? So cheap, reasonably efficient, massive boot, lob bikes in the back with seats down sort of thing? Ideally proper estate, not rakish hatchbacks or SUVs?
You are right that I have no control over either, but if I don't sell mine (and buy a newer one) then the person above me in the chain won't have the money to buy a new one.
If you can buy a car then someone else has already made the decision to sell it. It doesn't matter if you buy it or not, it'll still get sold regardless and they'll still buy a new one anyway.
If you want to sway someone else's buying decision up the line do you think that someone who's selling a second hand EV is more likely to buy a new EV or a new ICE?
So, what is the current used EV equivalent of a used skoda octavia estate please? So cheap, reasonably efficient, massive boot, lob bikes in the back with seats down sort of thing? Ideally proper estate, not rakish hatchbacks or SUVs?
On paper - MG5
In reality - Kia e-Niro or Hyundai Kona
In reality - Kia e-Niro or Hyundai Kona
Quite a lot smaller though. https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/kia-niro-2021-suv-ev-vs-skoda-octavia-2019-estate/
So, what is the current used EV equivalent of a used skoda octavia estate please? So cheap, reasonably efficient, massive boot, lob bikes in the back with seats down sort of thing? Ideally proper estate, not rakish hatchbacks or SUVs?
Because people = idiots, nearly all larger EVs are SUVish things. I think an MG5 is probably the only used option. There are some new estate options coming through now (VW ID7, a beemer or two), in case a salary sacrifice lease deal is an option.
Ok thanks. No lease or anything. Just sell the van eventually as it's not really used well nowadays and get a used ev estate. So nothing premium, just decent space and cost effective. Will look at the options above, but only the MG5 is an estate by the looks of things.
Does that size comparison above compare internal width as well? My old Qashqai carried one XC 29er better than the Octavia that followed it because it could go in both wheels on and seat post still extended. The Octavia was one wheel off and seat post removed
Surely the EV equivalent of an Octavia is an Enyaq?
Because people = idiots, nearly all larger EVs are SUVish things.
I'm not even sure what counts as an SUV these days. Very few EVs match what I would think of when I think SUV. They are mostly just estates that sit a bit higher due to having batteries in the floor.
Size is a funny one with EVs though as it is also linked to range. Personally I'd be happy with something the size of that Inster above. Reminds me of the Suzuki Ignis in some ways. But I couldn't really live with a WLTP range of 229 miles.
If I do go for an EV I'm probably going to end up buying something much larger than I actually want just to get the range I (think I) need.
Hmm, the MG is still a fair bit smaller than the Octavia:
I’ve gone for ID7 estate. 605 litre boot and Passat size passenger space. Range appears to be excellent judging by forums etc. mine not arriving til June.
ID7 looks great. Probably too new/premium for a viable used buy though. The e308SW/Astra estate looks a bit bigger than the MG5 but again probably too new for the used market. Could be a contender in a few years? Seems like the EV world is a few years off a ubiquitous and functional used estate.
Surely the EV equivalent of an Octavia is an Enyaq?
Just no. Ones a proper estate. The other is a oversized jacked up tank (sadly as someone already pointed out a lot of EVs are).
The height isn't so the batteries can go under the floor is because people are idiots and want taller cars so they can own the urban jungle. Batteries fit just fine under the floor of normal sized vehicles.
Seems like the EV world is a few years off a ubiquitous and functional used estate.
There's an Audi A6 estate in electric coming soon but its not cheap
A6 electric estate now has a 505 litre boot. Absolutely mental. Don’t know why but Audi seem to be chopping the boot size on a lot of cars. Madness! The new ICE A6 has a similar small sized boot (70 litres down on the outgoing model).
The height isn't so the batteries can go under the floor is because people are idiots cyclists* and want taller cars so they can own the urban jungle. fit their bikes** in without having to turn the handlebars.
* or parents
** or buggies
FTFY.
Almost everyone I know who drives some sort of crossover / SUV type vehicle is not an urban warrior. They just like having better visibility or more boot space or like the slightly higher seats because it's easier to get little kids or aged parents in and out.
Car manufacturers know this and that's why old school saloons / estates are increasingly rare.
The urban junglist drives a double cab pickup these days. They wouldn't be seen dead in a Quashqai
Hold on. I have just seen there is an E-Berlingo ! Yeah not an estate, more small van/car, but not to be mistaken for an urban junglist warrior vehicle. So then, what's wrong with these? 50kWH battery/ 174miles though. Is there a long range one? hmmm.
I think the e Berlingo s use the same motor and battery as the Corsa e? If it has 100kw charging like the Corsa then longer trips shouldn't be a problem.
It probably has a lower range due to it looking line a brick 😉 but a useful shaped brick.
That's not too bad then. 30mins break in a long journey for a charge and a coffee seems fine.
That's not too bad then. 30mins break in a long journey for a charge and a coffee seems fine.
Depends how often you have to take them and how far you have to go I guess. Remember that 179 mile range is a fantasy number. Probably more like 120, maybe below 100 on the motorway in the winter. Then you don't want to go down to nothing and wont want to charge beyond 80% on the move (too slow) so on a long trip you could be taking those 30min coffee breaks every 80 miles. Hope you like coffee 🙂
Ah, shot down with plans of the e berlingo sticking it to the premium jungalists tanks. My regular(ish) long journey is 200miles and it's a 460miler to see family in Scotland.
A great lease deal on a BMW i5 M60 touring…
https://www.rivervaleleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/bmw/i5/442kw-m60-xdrive-84kwh-5dr-auto-105016
The new ICE A6 has a similar small sized boot (70 litres down on the outgoing model).
A whole rucksack! OMG! 🙃
ID7 is not a ‘proper’ estate - it’s noticeably taller. When I get back in my Mazda 6 it feels like I’m sitting on the tarmac. But it’s not as tall as your typical SUV by a long way. I love it. With such a short bonnet, there’s tonnes of passenger space and a huge boot. Did I mention I love it?
In reality - Kia e-Niro or Hyundai Kona
The interior space is good on the e-niro but the boot is merely adequate. An electric Octavia estate would be ideal for me, I think the ID7 is the nearest equivalent but they're too new for my budget.
Anyone know how VWs battery care mode works with IOG? Battery care mode supposedly resets the charge target to 80% after each charge so you don't have to remember, but IOG charges in several different chunks overnight. So if you set the car to 100% does the battery care mode reset that to 80% after the first chunk of charging or only when the car reaches the 100% target?
With our Ohme/Octopus combo if you want to get the VW to 100% you need to turn off battery care and set the charge target on the car to 100%. Otherwise it will just stop charging once the car reaches 80%, no matter how much further charging is scheduled.
ID7 is not a ‘proper’ estate - it’s noticeably taller.
Tell me about it. They managed to make it look like a normal estate in the publicity photos. First one I saw in the flesh was such a disappointment. 🤢 🤮
As tenuous stated I had to turn off the 80% on my ID3 to get it to charge to 100%. You can easily set the charging capacity on the VW app on your phone on a slide bar from 50% to 100% but I’ve never bothered and just let it charge.
Thanks both - bigger trip coming up and that 20% would be the difference between needing a top up stop or not.
Also note that setting it on the phone app isn't fully reliable as it doesn't necessarily sync across properly, if you want to ensure it's set to 100% go out and set it on the dash 🙂
After a post a couple of pages ago, we did look at some 2nd hand EVs, but ended up with a newer/posher version of what we had. All the things my better half wanted- Heated seats/Rear Camera/Rear wiper/1 foot driving (and another 30 BHP 🙂 ) at a 0% 3 year deal pretty close to that sticker price. Just could not be a***d to go car shopping as she likes her current MG4.
Sales Fella showed us how much 'negative equity' was in her current car. Just coming up 2 years old and 6k under mileage and it was still over 3k! I bet Santander (finance comp) or equivalent must have loads of these to sell as they come off leases but they are still silly money on auto trader.
Pick it up in a couple of weeks so we'll have 2 MG4s for a month or so. I intend to make good use of the old one 🙂
Yea, the VW app is pretty crap at connecting to the car. Only really use it to pre warm the car then it’s hit or miss if it connects.
Yes I got burned at Christmas waking up to an 80% charged car. I’d set it to charge to 100% on the next charge but as said, IOG splits the next charge into several sessions. I don’t really see any need to have the car limited to 80% - I do that through the octopus app, and when I’m out and need to charge I’m either going far and want a rapid charger to go past 80, or I only stop briefly and it doesn’t get a chance to go higher.
@alex is that a 0% HP deal i.e will you own the car outright after 3 years?
Also, what range do you get on your current MG4 and can it take roofbars and a towbar (for bikes not towing)
Thanks
the VW app is pretty crap at connecting to the car
The VW app is pretty crap, full stop. It will stop working soon as the car needs a 3g signal to connect and 3g is being dropped in UK. After 3 years from new they want £90 a year for the app, which I sort of understand as the mobile connection does cost them (why didn't they give it WiFi?). The pain for me with an eUp is there are things (like preheating the cabin) that you can't do from the dash, it's app or nothing.