The Electric Car Thread

I agree with w00dster, but would add that for most journeys that stress can be allayed with apps like Electroverse that 'should' give up to date availability, and also having a willing and pro-active co-pilot doing the checking whilst we drive!

I would stop off at Charnock Richards on the way back and top up...only 2 working chargers both in use.

That's your problem. Why stop at Charnock Richard with 2 chargers when there's a bank of 8 just off J27 and another bank of 8 just off J28?  15 at a public Tesla at Preston too. You drive past hundreds of chargers.  I mean it's not particularly onerous to plan, but you do have to have a look if your car doesn't do it for you. I just let the car tell me where to stop.

On that point, how good is Google maps (as part of google automotive) at telling you which chargers are working/free ?

I don't know tbh. I know there is good data out there and not every provider has it. Last year my Hyundai said one thing Zap Map said something wildly different.  The car was right.  Clearly Hyundai are just using a data feed from the operator, which suggests it's a premium feed they're paying for, and free Zap Map is not.

Did my first fast charging last weekend, 400 ish mile round trip. arrived with 20% battery left, charged to 80% at an Instavolt at a Sainsburys Local down the road from the hotel and had my first taste of 165kw DC charging which is awesome and had me at 80% in less than 25 mins.

Having pootled around over the weekend I was never going to get home on the charge I had left. The car suggested a stop towards the end of the drive but as the Nav shows chargers and their availability I picked one earlier on the route and we stopped for a quick sandwich. Topped up back to 80% in less than the time it took to eat said sandwich and had more than enough juice left when I got home.

Overall very happy with how it went, 'on the road' leccy is pretty pricey (spent £65!) but considering it's a tiny cost at home and free at work, it's hardly an issue once in a while.

I'm hopefully going to get a test drive in one of these over the next couple of days.

Unfortunately I don't think it's got a decent enough range for us but it's the most interesting EV I've seen since the i3. 

My current ID3 is up for replacing at the end of the summer and it's very practical and comfortable. It does everything it's supposed to, I just find it so boring.

I saw one of those in yellow at the Renault dealer the other week. Went in to look at the more practical Scenic but was very tempted to just order one on the spot. 

Annoying that you can't specify the upgraded (HK) audio in the UK as you can in the rest of Europe though and then, as you say, there is the issue of the range. 

The problem with range is that it is linked to infrastructure and they are both changing all the time. Few of us actually drive more than (say) 150 miles without taking a break. So, if there were lots of chargers everywhere so you could plug in whenever you stopped, a 250 mile WLTP range would probably be fine and you could argue that there would be no point having a heavier and more expensive battery. But we are not there yet and it's not clear that we are going to get there. 

I can see two scenarios for the mass adoption of EVs (if that is actually going to happen):

1. Charging becomes ubiquitous and the mindset of drivers changes to one where you just plug in whenever you are not using the car. Similar to the way phones evolved. I remember when the battery life (measured in weeks) was a selling point for a mobile phone. Now we just want something that will last for the longest spell that we we would use a phone for and just plug it in (or put it on a charging pad) when we are not using it. If that's the future for EVs then I can see the focus switching to cheaper/lighter cars with "just big enough" batteries. 

2. Battery technology improves to the point where charging on the road stops being an issue as the car can go for pretty much a whole day (say 500 miles) on a single charge and charging is just something you do on your "home charger" (whether that is actually at your home or just  the one you use most often).

I think option 1 is the better option for the planet but the fact that option 2 is still a possibility makes option 1 less likely. Would you invest millions in setting up a charging hub that might become obsolete because hardly anybody is charging away from home?

I don't really think that any of this matters if you are happy to pay the premium to lease a car for a couple of years. A Renault 5 will be fun for a couple of years, no doubt about that. But if you are looking to buy a car that you would keep for much longer it gets much harder to accept that range I think.   

Posted by: Andy Welch

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A Renault 5 will be fun for a couple of years, no doubt about that. But if you are looking to buy a car that you would keep for much longer it gets much harder to accept that range I think. 

It’s not to buy (although it would be tempting to buy one), it will be ordered on my work scheme and kept for 2 years.

Most of our journeys the range is absolutely fine but occasionally we “need” to go to Edinburgh and back visiting family and being able to do that without charging at the moment is great. It’s 160 motorway miles return so would probably be right on limit of the R5. Our iD3 does it comfortably.

The majority of our actual long journeys are done in a campervan and we do have another car. But it seems a bit silly to compromise on range just because I think it looks fun 🤔

Few of us actually drive more than (say) 150 miles without taking a break.

Range just isn't the problem people think.  As I've said before, I went to Scotland in my slow charging short range car, charging about every 2 hours 15% ish to 80% ish.  It took 14.5hrs, having done an extra stop not to arrive empty, it might've taken 13.5 hours in an ICE because I was just casually driving, eating, peeing, resting and so on.  You can easily deal with this.  And that Renault has way more range than mine and charges twice as fast.  And there are way more chargers now than there was even a year ago.

Have a look on ABRP - if you select a long trip such as Cardiff to Mallaig, 537 miles, it says 1h44 of charging if you drive a Renault 5 in 4 stops for a total time of 10h37.  I'd be fine with that.  If you choose a long range car like a VW iD7 the total time goes down to 9h14.  So you could save 90 mins on that long trip in theory, but bear in mind it'd cost you £26,000!

I've heard similar from various friends and neighbours with EVs @molgrips i.e. you learn to live with whatever range you have and it isn't that big a deal. But range us still right near the top of the list of issues for people (like me) thinking of making the switch to an EV. If we want to get the mass of drivers to adopt EVs then we either have to convince them that they don't actually need a car than can go 300 miles between refuelling stops or the market needs to provide cars that can at a price they can afford. I'm not sure which of those it will be though and I reckon there is still a decent chance that it is neither and people continue driving ICE cars for longer than many would want.  

I like to think that I'm fairly logical and open to arguments, but I've still talked myself into thinking that any car with a WLTP range much below 350 miles is a purchase I'd regret in a few years (when that becomes the minimum for new cars). So, I find myself looking at cars that are bigger (and more expensive) than I actually want, which probably explains why I haven't actually bought anything yet. 

My logic goes something like this (and feel free to pick holes in it):

My edge case is a 500 mile drive at Christmas. Any EV is probably going to require me to change my habits on that drive. For example, I currently tend to stop in the middle of nowhere to walk the dogs for half an hour and then refuel a bit further down the road. With an EV I'd need to combine the two, but I can live with that. I have (once) done the drive with a single stop, but that was extreme and two stops is more usual. So, an EV that can do 200 miles on a full charge and then 150 miles on 80% (after the recharge) then another 150 miles to complete the journey should work. So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.   

500 miles in a single day is far more than the vast majority of people will do every year. Sure, if you're not prepared to stop a bit more, that's going to be an issue for you, you'll either have to pay more for a top of the range car, or stick with ICE.

OTOH if you're prepared to modify your habits a little more, you can buy a significantly cheaper car from a wider range of options. Up to you.

So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range. 

My car, Kia EV6 single motor with a 77kwh battery has a quoted WLTP range of 319 miles. In summer, I can, without compromising my driving experience, get 300 real world miles. In winter, again without sacrificing normal heating etc It’ll do absolute worst case real world 250-ish. 
Previous car, Genesis GV60, same platform, same numbers. 

The gap between WLTP and real world range is not, in my experience, always as wide as you imagine. 

…and none of that really matters because it charges quickly enough anyway.

Posted by: Perchy Panther

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My car, Kia EV6 single motor with a 77kwh battery has a quoted WLTP range of 319 miles. In summer, I can, without compromising my driving experience, get 300 real world miles. In winter, again without sacrificing normal heating etc It’ll do absolute worst case real world 250-ish. 

Does your EV6 have a heat pump? They seem to be quite a rare optional extra.

My edge case is a 500 mile drive at Christmas

To me that sounds like the person who 'has' to buy a 7 seater mpv minivan for their daily commute  because once year you 'might' go on a lads MTB holiday and they all prefer to have their bikes inside the car. Or you 'have' to buy a 6 bedroom house because once a year your in-laws visits and sometimes bring great aunt Maud....and your FiL's snoring is so bad your MiL prefers her own room and your son gets surly if he has to give up his room for the night. 

Efficiency is obviously good but throwing in and carrying around even more heavy batteries (at extra cost to buy, less efficiency to run and extra environmental damage to manufacture and dispose of) so that a once a year trip can be done without changing your habits is daft. 

For context we had guests of our holiday let come up and stay from Norfolk (600 miles each way) in a VW id3. 4 in the car and did it in one day each way. Apparently the sky didn't fall down. 

No heat pump. The GV60 had one as standard but only really noticed the difference on long drives.  
Day to day the difference is negligible. 
Use the heated seats / wheel for the first ten minutes of a cold drive and the car is plenty hot after that. 

have to pay more for a top of the range car

And even then it seems I have to live with a car that is much bigger than I want for 360 days of the year just to get the range I want on those other few days.

OTOH if you're prepared to modify your habits a little more, you can buy a significantly cheaper car from a wider range of options. Up to you.

Well when you put it like that 😀 

The other option is, of course, just to wait a few more years when small cars with 400 mile ranges will probably be the norm. 

I have a varmepump in mine, I'm getting a range of about 380km in a Norwegian winter

Posted by: Perchy Panther

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No heat pump. The GV60 had one as standard but only really noticed the difference on long drives.  
Day to day the difference is negligible. 

Interesting. Thanks. Living in the north east of Scotland I've been working on the theory that a heat pump is an absolute must, but relaxing that does bring a few more options into the equation. 

The heat pump is, for me, a “nice to have” but I wouldn’t spunk a grand of my own money to option one. 
The extreme conditions in the chilly bit of North Lanarkshire just don’t warrant it. 

Posted by: Convert

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To me that sounds like the person who 'has' to buy a 7 seater mpv minivan for their daily commute  because once year you 'might' go on a lads MTB holiday

I get what you are saying and it's a fair point. The problem is that I am looking to move from a car that can do that journey so spending a fair amount of cash on something that can't still seems like a backwards step. 

In over 40 years of driving, whenever I have looked to replace a car I have always just looked for something that does all the things I like about the current car and fixes/improves a few things I don't like. This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things. 

You can lead a pig to a jewellery shop but it really needs to try the pearls on for itself. 

…or something. 

Never was any good with proverbs. 😁

we either have to convince them that they don't actually need a car than can go 300 miles between refuelling stops

We're trying 🙂

So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.

No, I don't think so. My car does 200 miles in summer and 175 in winter.

There are a few issues here.  When you search for 'real world winter range' you get loads of American content where people are looking at -35C and snow on the road.  There are a few things that affect the range in winter:

1.  Ambient temperature affecting battery temperature

2.  The air is colder and hence denser

3.  Rain on the road and in the air also affects efficiency, but this is the same in winter as summer and also the same for ICEs

4.  The energy cost of the heating

There's not much you can do about most of those, but they aren't dramatic. The rain on the road seems to be the biggest issue.  Also lots of cars have battery heaters but these tend only to be for extreme cold to protect the battery not optimise efficiency.

BUT

There is a huge difference between short trips in winter and long ones.  When you are on a motorway, for example, you're drawing more current, which heats the battery itself.  My Leaf had a noddy on-dash temperature display, and you could get it to move quite a bit with three or four hard accelerations.  I haven't tried this with an OBD2 on my current car but perhaps I will next winter.  In any case, we scored 5.0 on our trip to Scotland which is above our long term average. We were 4-up with luggage, it was only about 14C and it rained very heavily for part of it, so I was surprised to do that well.  I suspect the fact it was a long fast trip helped.

Also, the energy cost of heating in the UK is pretty small with a heat pump, once you are up and running.  Even in winter it's about 5% of the total energy usage of the car.  Turning it off adds ten miles at most, usually 5 or 6.  But to get up to temperature, it draws much more power and if you are using less power to drive i.e. you're driving around town, that can be 30-40% of the total.  So when people say their range goes down by a third, you need to know if they are doing short trips around town or long motorway ones. I suspect the former as if my old-tech car only loses just over 10% range, I can't see how a more modern one does far worse unless the above factors are in play.

And of course, if you can charge at home, then having your range slashed in winter for urban driving doesn't matter much unless you are a taxi driver or something,

The other option is, of course, just to wait a few more years when small cars with 400 mile ranges will probably be the norm.

You must have a better crystal ball than me then. Smaller/cheaper cars are tending towards same/lower ranges but (slightly) faster charging. It's *very* expensive to add battery capacity right now, and they are heavy. Quickly makes your small car either compromised on space, stupid tall or into a medium sized car. Bigger/more expensive cars seem to be going either 800v or rapid charging. Capacity is going up, but only slightly. (This is across the entire global market. There are local variations.)

So i wouldn't count on a golf size car ever having a 400 mile range, not with current and upcoming tech anyway.

This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things. 

The way i look at it is that for the 360 days of the year you'll save a fortune on fuel, my current hybrid saves me about 2/3rds on my fuel cost compared to the last diesel i had, if i run exclusively on electric, charging at home or relatively low cost at work. On long journeys it costs about the same as the diesel did.

Then for the 5 days you need to drive 500 miles (then 500 more), it takes a bit longer and might be slightly compromised. Think how many hours of work you'd have had to do to pay for the extra fuel...

And FWIW, if you get the car preconditioned while finishing off your charge, so battery and cabin are at perfect temp before you even leave, you can get quite close to claimed range. Even when it's -10. I've been getting high 70s all winter on mine (between 77-80) driving drastically faster than WLTP. It's motorway all the way to work pretty much. I don't have battery conditioning either. I just have to take whatever temp it's at when i get to it (do have cabin preheating though). Trying to get it to finish charging as i leave for work does give me an extra 4-5 km though. Rated electric range (WLTP) is 92 km

So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.   

I got 235 miles range out of my e-niro on a long motorway trip, compared with the official range of 280 odd. I doubt it would go below 200 even in the depths of winter. I would add that I'm saving over £1k per year in fuel.

Posted by: molgrips

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When you search for 'real world winter range' you get loads of American content

Yes, fair point. I noticed that ev-database defines winter highway range as doing a steady 70mph at -10C, which is cold even for Scotland 😀 

Posted by: mert

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You must have a better crystal ball than me then.

No, you are right, there is a lot of guesswork and my guess could be way off. There are two things happening at once; improvement in battery chemistry (plus lower price per kwh) and improvements in charging infrastructure. Both are good but they are kind of in competition. If batteries get so good/cheap that hardly anybody charges on the road then we don't need so many chargers. But if charging improves enough then who would pay for extra battery that they don't need. 

Maybe you are right and small cars will always be sub 300 mile range even when solid state technology makes a 500 mile range small car a possibility. I just don't know. 

Posted by: Perchy Panther

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You can lead a pig to a jewellery shop but it really needs to try the pearls on for itself. 

Oink 😀 

It does demonstrate the scale of the challenge though. I'm pretty keen on EVs really but still find it hard to commit to switching. Imaging how hard it is going to be to convince the EV-haters who think it is all a big conspiracy anyway. 

I just don't know.

Neither do i, and it's my job.

Posted by: Andy Welch

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This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things. 

My problem is that Roofboxes, Bike racks, stuff on the roof all massively kill the range, especially at motorway speeds. 200-250 real world miles is fine but not if it translates into half that with two kayaks on the roof. No I don't drive around with kayaks on the roof all the time but when I've spent 30k on a car I want it to do as much as my current 15k car can do. They can't tow either - another negative.

I'm a massive EV fan - I've had a Leaf for ages, its been brilliant for local journeys and I'd love a 'proper EV' as my main car but i can't bring myself to push the button. I think I'll reluctantly but inevitably buy another hybrid to replace my aging Toyota.

Ah, I forgot about the roofbox. That 500 mile Christmas trip usually has one of those on the car too. Still, if I talk myself up to a bigger car than I want just to get the range maybe I won't need the roofbox 😀 

I'm beginning to think that, instead of spaffing £30k on something that might still not be able to do everything, I could just spend £20K on something that could handle the day-to-day stuff and accept that longer journeys will take longer. If all else fails I can spend some of the £10K I've saved on renting an ICE car. 

They can't tow either - another negative.

Many can, some have lower limits but a 1200kg limit is common and there are a fair few that can do 1600kg.

As for roof boxes - replace that with one of those towbar mounted boxes.

Posted by: molgrips

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Many can, some have lower limits but a 1200kg limit is common and there are a fair few that can do 1600kg.

Try pulling into a charging bay with a 1600kg trailer and let me know how it goes…you’ll probably have to remove the trailer to even get most EVs into a charging position even if there was all the space in the world as the cables are so short on most fast chargers. Imagine doing that every 150 miles which is what your range would be down to.

@winston 

I've had this same discussion on this thread before.  Towing  any distance + EV is just looking like a rubbish combo.

Deal breakers for me are

• Range impact both in terms of journey time but also actually finding suitable chargers in charger desert zones. 
• An almost complete absence of pull through charging.  

I would love an EV and it would be perfect for about 80-90% of my driving.  The problem is the remaining 10-20% would be a complete pain in the arse. Not mild inconvenience but a proper disruptive and time wasting headache.  Since that minority use comes out of my very limited leisure time it makes it a completely unacceptable compromise for me. 

Last car swap I actually contemplated an EV for the 80% and keeping the old SMax as a tow/bike car but lack of drive space and the (then) spike in EV insurance premiums stopped that in its tracks.  We tried to find a PHEV but all the hybrid Skoda estates needed a factory fit towing pack and couldn't find a second hand one. The EV plus older tow car may be the next move if we are still towing regularly in 3 years. 

Try pulling into a charging bay with a 1600kg trailer and let me know how it goes

Clearly there are several issues with EV towing, but the cars can tow. There's a FB group for EV caravanners, most people only drive short distances to local spots.

Imagine doing that every 150 miles

I intend to as soon as I can afford an EV towcar. Yes, it'll be a pain, but paying £1.40 to drive 50 miles the rest of the time is a much bigger pain, not to mention spraying pollution everywhere you go.  I'm beginning to understand how vegans feel.

actually finding suitable chargers in charger desert zones. 

So for me the charging desert is Mid Wales.  Thing is, I would be able to drive across that desert on a full charge, even with a caravan, because it's only about 60 miles across.  Driving up the A470 to North Wales is a problem, for sure, but I don't have to go that way, I can go up the A49 and across on the A5 or even use the A55 if needed.  In most cases I am on the motorway network so it's a case of drive to the caravan/HGV spot at the services, unhitch, charge up and then come back.  That wouldn't take that long, really. Yes, a bit of a pain, but like I say the other 49 weeks of the year I really want to be driving electric so I'll put up with it.  A longer trip on the continent would be more of a pain.

I guess, when you are thinking of switching cars, it is natural to look at your edge-cases and be concerned that the car you are about to spend a fair bit of cash on can't actually do what your current car can. For me that is the occasional long trip and for @winston and @garage-dweller it is towing. Of course, you also need to look at the advantages you may get the other 90% of the time, but they are a bit harder to quantify. 

There is the cost argument. I've run the numbers and for my 20k miles per year I could currently save around £2,500 a year in fuel costs if I were able to do most of my charging on a cheap (7p) overnight tariff. Sounds good, but there are at least two problems with that. First, a lot of my petrol cost is tax and the government will need to get that back off me somehow. Maybe they will lump it all onto VED, but some way of charging per mile travelled does make sense. So, the significant cost savings are probably only temporary. Then there is the fact that a new(ish) car is probably going to depreciate by far more than £2,500 per year. So, on a pure cost argument, keeping my current car running a bit longer is probably the best of all worlds. 

There is the environmental argument as well. Instinctively I find it hard to believe that the problems caused by over-consumption can be mitigated by buying more stuff. Again, keeping my old car running just feels as though it should be better for the environment. I accept that on a pure CO2 basis that probably isn't the case. The CO2 I "save" with an EV at 20k miles a year is big enough to pay back the CO2-cost of building that new EV fairly quickly. But there is all the other stuff that goes into making a car and the question of how much of my current car and any new EV would actually be recycled (as opposed to what theoretically could be recycled). I think that overall I have just about convinced myself that there probably is a net environmental benefit to me selling my old ICE car and buying a newer EV, but how much of that is just me wanting to justify buying something shiny is hard to tell. 

If anyone is brave enough to go down the EV van route for local use of say 80-90 mile range we have some silly priced Mercedes Vitos and Sprinters in stock at present.  72 plate Sprinter L2H2 example with less than 11,000 miles on it.  £11250 + VAT.

I have been tempted to get one myself and see how it would go as a camper.  At least you would be able to have  a coffee & dinner etc whilst you charged to do the next leg.  

We are selling them to companies who they are now starting to stack up for.  Low mileage, local driving.  Wanted to go electric but the new price of £40/50/60k scared them off.  But now they are £10-15k they can take a punt and see how it works whilst making fuel savings too.  We dont get many issues with them but i must admit when there is an issue it takes a while to sort as the network of dealerships is still playing catch up with the technology.  They cant take a guess, they have to follow the manufacturers process to the letter which can result in delays.

I live within 50 miles of the lake district and when i had my last camper that was my main destination when i could avoid the masses.  I think it would work for me as a camper.....

Posted by: Andy Welch

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but how much of that is just me wanting to justify buying something shiny is hard to tell. 

Shiny you say?

Had a little test drive and I like it. The range thing is niggling but I spend 90% of the time driving it back and forward on the same road, 60 miles a day with very cheap charging at both ends.

If I decide to take it on a longer journey I can stop & charge, it will be rare.

In a few years the Golf GTI will need replacing and that’s the time I’ll look for something a bit bigger that can go further.

The R5 seems like the perfect second car at the moment, it’s a nice place to sit, it’s not fast but it’s quick enough, rides nicely, feels light compared to the lumbering tank that my ID3 is.

A bit like BMW did with the i3, I think they’ve made something interesting that stands out from everything else out there.

We are selling them to companies who they are now starting to stack up for. 

Stacking up didn't work out two well for this EV van owner

The owners of a small family-run business say they have been left £40,000 out of pocket after their van became trapped in a mechanical stacked car park in central London more than two years ago.

I like the look of that.  I am tempted and my wifes car would be ideal to be replaced with one.  We were looking very closely not so long ago.  I have the EQA and it is doing amazingly for my company car.  Its saving huge amounts towards fuel and i love to drive it.

But.....I didnt pay the nigh on £60k purchase price for my EQA.  She loves her petrol mini cooper but an electric small car of similar or newer age is likely to be quite a premium on it.  The biggest issue i had was if we wanted to sell it we would either lose a huge amount or have a very limited market to sell it to.  I work in sales, i know that its a fledgling market and its being undermined by governments every few months making decisions that effect new sale but also residuals.  In the end i decided not to get her one but in 3 years time, with a huge chunk of depreciation these may just stack up as a used purchase.

Meant to ask, has everyone with EV's noticed a considerable increase in range now that the weather has improved?  Its been a welcome improvement.  

Meant to ask, has everyone with EV's noticed a considerable increase in range now that the weather has improved?  Its been a welcome improvement.  

Yup..now getting just over 3miles/kWh! Which isn't great, but is good for the car with a roof rack on all the time.

RE the 500 mile journey thing - you'll be fine. Stop twice, walk the dog ina  different spot and THAT charge won't even impact your journey..

Or just rent a caravelle once a year for that trip.

Range isn't really the issue people think it is!

I'm doing a trip to teh Nurburgring in a few months (yep..all planned and booked!) and that will involve a few stops on the way down, which will be a non issue as I'll stop every 3 hours anyway. Then i'll just plug into the Tesla Superchargers next to the ring for a bit, whilst looking at the museum etc etc!

DrP

Posted by: TheLittlestHobo

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In the end i decided not to get her one but in 3 years time, with a huge chunk of depreciation these may just stack up as a used purchase.

That's basically where I got to with the R5 too after checking one out at the dealer. It's a lovely car but I couldn't make the new price work. In a couple of years when my wife's little Ignis needs replacing and you can pick up second hand versions for well under £20k this may well be back on the list. But if you can make the numbers work then it's undoubtedly a lovely thing and it's possible that the loony in the white-house messes things up enough that used car prices skyrocket again like they did after Covid anyway. So maybe you'll be able to sell it for a profit 😀 

I don’t notice too much if I am (I guess I am) as most of my driving is short trips and I only plug the car in every few days to take it from 40/50% to 80%. The whole range thing, while it was a concern buying the car, is not something I bother about now. I did my usual, occasional, 400km round trip last week and did my usual pee/charge break up and down, didn’t compare it to the last time I did it in jan/feb. But I was not really someone who paid much attention to mpg when I was driving an ICE either.

Again, keeping my old car running just feels as though it should be better for the environment. 

You can solve that problem by waiting until you would've replaced your car anyway, and then buy a used EV. 

a lot of my petrol cost is tax and the government will need to get that back off me somehow

Not off you.  Off someone, or something.  They will want to incentivise EVs as much as possible for emissions reasons, yes, but also because they are trying to get on the EV manufacturing train and for energy security reasons.  So the tax will fall elsewhere probably.

There is the environmental argument as well. Instinctively I find it hard to believe that the problems caused by over-consumption can be mitigated by buying more stuff.

You will need a new car eventually. When you do buy one, get electric.  Remember that most of the time you aren't scrapping your old car, you're passing it on to someone else.  The way to look at it is that there is a supply of new cars coming in, and a supply of old cars coming out of the national fleet.  If you buy a new car, that results in an old one being pushed out of the other end (sort of - there is probably a lot of elasticity in demand at the lower end).  If you buy a used one, you are taking it off the market - so either ultimately (at the end of the chain) someone will repair their old car instead of binning it, or someone else will go new instead of used. It's hard to tell which.  However, if you buy a used EV then that either forces someone who wants an EV to buy newer, or it forces them to buy ICE.  Since EV manufacturers slowed down their plans, that suggests if you buy the EV then someone else would be buying an ICE instead.

Really, unless you're a high mileage user it all comes down to whether or not you want a new car or were going to get one anyway.  My diesel does pretty low miles, and whilst I want to change it my daughter pointed out that if I were to sell it it would most likely go to someone who would drive more miles in it and therefore the car itself would produce more pollution.  The next EV off the production line should go to a higher mileage driver than me.

The other thing is that the tax break for new EVs is skewing the market. They are selling at higher prices to corporate lease customers because the monthly salary sacrifice is a lot lower along with the fuel costs.  So buying your own new one is a mug's game since you can't take advantage of it.  So.. I forgot where I was going with that argument.

In a couple of years when my wife's little Ignis needs replacing and you can pick up second hand versions for well under £20k

Used Ioniq Electrics are amazing bargains currently for far less than that.

Posted by: molgrips

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Not off you.  Off someone, or something.  They will want to incentivise EVs as much as possible for emissions reasons, yes, but also because they are trying to get on the EV manufacturing train and for energy security reasons.  So the tax will fall elsewhere probably.

So that's why they have increased the VED on EVs from 0 to £190 and retrospectively applied it back to cars registered years ago (something they have NEVER done with a VED change before) then added EVs into the 40k luxury car tax bracket........My colleague runs a 66 reg pre adblue diesal Kia that get taxed at £30!!!

Don't look for logic in the VED system but you can bet EVs are right in the firing line

I've run the numbers and for my 20k miles per year I could currently save around £2,500 a year in fuel costs if I were able to do most of my charging on a cheap (7p) overnight tariff.

Remember to include maintenance costs too.   Even with the silly 10k service intervals on my Ioniq, the amount spent on servicing has been quite reasonable over the 80k miles I've done so far.  Last service was a 'big' one at around £500, but that was similar to my mums petrol A1 normal service.  

No cam belts or chains to replace. Pads and discs are still original with lots of meat on.  DId have to clean up the rear brakes though as they dont really get enough use (hence why some have drums). 

So that's why they have increased the VED on EVs from 0 to £190

Thats nowhere near as much as they were getting from us in fuel.

Drove a 140 miles today in my ID3, mostly up and down on the A3 with some city driving and country lanes. Achieved 4.5m/kwh so even though it is not actually that warm, range is definitely going up. I wonder if it is also connected to a SW update I have recently done?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/neighbours-flee-fire-crews-battle-31392050

Not many details other than the amount of time that the fire service remained at the scene, 14.5hrs.

Yet at another EV fire that has been discussed on the forum the fire service left after a few hours. 

Not a great advertisement for potential ev buyers so hopefully the investigations are detailed enough to quell any myths about EV and battery safety. 

I'd be surprised if anyone considering an EV decided not to because they spontaneously catch fire all the time, as it doesn't take much research to come to the conclusion that's simply not true

Probably another half dozen ICE fires across the country while they were on scene putting that one out.