The Electric Car Thread

I'm pro EV and I don't consider the potential fire issues to be a deal breaker. I think the negative press is a problem though. 

Another EV fire took place in Spain recently, near Madrid where a driver crashed his Porsche EV in an underground carpark and the battery went up (probably along with other parked cars). 2 firefighters died during the response. 

Whilst these events are rare I wonder if carparks and ferries will impose restrictions on EVs in the future?

Posted by: retrorick

↑

I'm pro EV and I don't consider the potential fire issues to be a deal breaker. I think the negative press is a problem though. 

Another EV fire took place in Spain recently, near Madrid where a driver crashed his Porsche EV in an underground carpark and the battery went up (probably along with other parked cars). 2 firefighters died during the response. 

Whilst these events are rare I wonder if carparks and ferries will impose restrictions on EVs in the future?

Yep, similar.

I think the main problem with EV fires isn't so much the frequency, but the difficulty in managing them, e.g. my cursory Google turns up this list of observations https://www.evfiresafe.com/post/ev-fire-incident-management-case-study-from-prague . As far as I'm aware ultimately (if possible) the vehicles have to be fully enclosed/immersed and left to cool down/burn out. Quite different to your standard vehicle fire.

You are right @retrorick that it is the perception that is the issue. Human beings are pretty rubbish at dealing with risk. That's why I'm still scared getting on a plane 😀 

Cars have always caught fire. Every Hollywood car chase used to end with a fireball. Faulty or damaged electrics can lead to fires. That's why some folk wont run the washing machine overnight. So, of course there is a risk of EV fires and it's easy for anybody who is anti-EV for any reason to jump on the cases that do happen and try to whip up more anti-EV sentiment. But as the number of EVs in your town, work car park etc increases and people walk past these day after day and month after month they will start to realise that the risk is small enough that it can be placed alongside all the other small risks that we ignore every day. 

I am slightly concerned about an EV fire breaking out on a ferry or the tunnel - yes, its less likely to happen than an ICE fire but if it did it would be a disaster surely? If it ever did happen then I can see EVs being banned from cross channel travel or at least charged a lot more. That would be a massive issue for us as we use the tunnel 3 or 4 times a year.

There's been a lot of talk about alternative battery chemistry for a long time now that solve a lot of problems for EVs - more energy density so potentially either lighter cars or greater ranges and hopefully less problematic from a fire perspective - with a huge amount of R&D.....you would think/hope we're close to that becoming a production reality in the not too distant future

Sodium batteries I think have less flammability when damaged but a lower energy density at the moment. BYD are using them in their smaller cars. 

I think In India there is a programme of swapping out lithium ion scooter batteries with newer tech lead acid batteries which are less prone to combustion. 

This is a link to the YouTube ev fire site I occasionally watch. 

https://youtube.com/@stachedtraining?si=DFYgNfiC0rKRIfQh

Has everyone else on Octopus Intelligent Go been offered the chance to move to a 12 month fixed rate?

Current price is 28.96p/kWh during the day, offer is to fix for 12 months at slightly lower day rate of 27.88p/kWh. Night rate is 7p/kWh on both. Seems like a no-brainer to fix for 12 months, or is there really the possibility of rates falling over the year?

There was also a new option to pay a fixed add-on of £20 a month for all-you-can-eat night time charging. I'm not tempted by that as I do 90% of my charging for free at work. 

The biggest new hope for batteries is solid-state batteries.  The issue with lithium isn't the lithium itself, necessarily, it's the organic liquid electrolytes they use which are highly flammable. Solid state batteries have some sort of ceramic matrix instead which not only doesn't burn, but it means that you don't need a separator layer between the electrodes and you can therefore pack more charge carrying material into the same battery pack.

Posted by: timmys

↑

Has everyone else on Octopus Intelligent Go been offered the chance to move to a 12 month fixed rate?

Had the e-mail last night but when we tried to switch it said we don't qualify for the offer!

Posted by: timmys

↑

There was also a new option to pay a fixed add-on of £20 a month for all-you-can-eat night time charging

Have put my name down for this, but there's only 8888 people at sign up so not sure if I'll get it. Do all charging at home so £20pm for essentially unlimited petrol sounds ideal.

Seems like a no-brainer to fix for 12 months, or is there really the possibility of rates falling over the year?

1/ If you look at the trend graphs, and ignoring the high rates in 22/23 which were due to other factors and the gov underpinned us during, the price tends to drop in summer and increase in winter. So I think there's a fair chance it'll go down in the next cap and then up again next winter. Of course, we tend to use more in winter so the surety against that increase in the winter vs the possibly smaller amount you'd lose thru summer is your call.

2/ ML suggests similar in his latest forecast https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/energy-price-cap-prediction/

3/ Cynically, if they're offering you to fix at a lower price that indicates that prices will decrease by more than their offer.....they're not a charity and have people being paid to do these calcs.

And for me the bulk of my usage (kWh rather than cost) is in overnight EV charging which doesn't change so effect on my bill of this fixed decrease would be about £3/mo against current cost, so I'm waiting to see if other offers come in the summer.

Irish Ferries are so worried (not) about EV fires they have charge points on the boats. Both the ferries and Eurotunnel are used to HGVs with 30 odd tonnes of flamable load going up, I reckon they'll cope with an EV battery fire.

I don't know how accurate ABRP is, but they claim to have a database of different cars so I thought I'd do some virtual testing of my 500 mile edge case. The results were a little surprising and make me question my assumption that I "need" a longer range car. 

According to Google maps it should take around 9 hours of actual driving to do that journey. Sounds about right. We did once do it under 10 hours, but that was back before we had kids or dogs when we would just stop for fuel, snacks (to eat in the car) and the odd toilet break. These days 11 hours would be a good run and 12 is the average. Maybe 13 on a slow run. So it looks as though we are actually stopped for between 2 and 4 hours, which is more than I thought to be honest.

I've been looking at the Renault Scenic. It is a bigger car than I want day-to-day but I feel I need that 350+ mile range for these odd long trips. According to ABRP I would need to stop 3 times in a Scenic for a total charge time of one hour. The stops it suggests are pretty close to where we would stop anyway (for twice as long as it suggests) so the car really wouldn't be an issue. 

I also tried the Renault 5 as a car that I'd much prefer driving for most of the year but which clearly isn't up to doing a long trip like that. ABRP suggested that I'd need 4 stops with a total charge time of 1:30. OK we'd have to change our routine a bit and go for more but shorter stops than we usually do. But the total charge time is still well below the time that we are usually stopped for anyway and in theory it would still be possible to do the journey in the same overall time.

I guess all of this relies on actually being able to get on a charger when and where it suggests so the longer range car would still be less stressful and give more options. 

The me from 20 years ago who would drive 500 miles in a day with very few stops and just live off coffee and snacks in the car probably would need the longer range car, but maybe the me from now doesn't.  

What is your 500 mile journey and when will you be doing it, Roverpig? On a school holiday weekend you can expect 500miles to be a right royal pain in the arse especially if you are heading the same way as everyone else. However most of the time most journeys go just fine. 

I find the app journey calculators run the battery too low for comfort and do my own planning. Running down to 10-15% when there isn't another charge point within range with that charge isn't sensible. It only takes rain/a headwind/Madame turning on the heater for 10% to become 3%

I've got a Zoé with similar range to the Renault 5. 5 stops for 500miles on motorways IME unless you drive at truck speed when it becomes 3 or 4. So I drive at truck speed. 🙂

Posted by: Edukator

↑

What is your 500 mile journey and when will you be doing it,

I think you've found the flaw in my calculations 😀 

My "edge case" is the trip from Aberdeenshire to Norfolk that we do at Christmas (i.e. winter conditions and busiest time of year). An EV that can cope with that trip is going to be able to cope with anything I would want. 

I've been thinking that I "need" a car with a WLTP range of over 350 miles to stop that journey from being a total pain. I guess what surprised me is that a shorter range (250 miles WLTP) car only actually requires one extra stop and an extra half an hour of charging time, which isn't that big a deal on a trip I only do a few times a year. But if it's two extra stops in reality and each one involves a fight (or at least a long queue) for a charger then that could get annoying. 

If I actually wanted to drive a big car it wouldn't really be an issue, but I much prefer smaller cars most of the time. My ideal car is basically something around the size of a Suzuki Swift with a decent stereo, wipe clean seats, rock-solid Car Play connectivity and bomb-proof reliability. Reliable adaptive cruise control with lane keeping on the motorway and a 360 degree camera system would be nice too if Santa is listening, but pretty much everything else is gravy. 

Dropping the range criteria down a bit also brings in lots of older and cheaper cars and since I don't really care much about cars that's quite appealing too. 

So, on the one hand I don't want to spend thousands more on a car that is bigger than I want just to get the range. But at the same time I don't want to spend what is still a decent wedge on a shorter range car only to find that it's a pain and I regret not spending a few grand more on something that is actually up to the job. Especially is smaller cars with longer range are just around the corner. 

Like lots of people contemplating a switch from ICE to EV, I feel that I need a car than can do 300 miles between refuelling stops (and then refuel quickly) as that's what I used to. So I'm thinking that battery technology isn't quite there yet. But I'm starting to question that view. I wonder whether battery technology is fine and what we really need is for prices of existing 250 mile WLTP range cars to drop below the equivalent ICE car and for the charging infrastructure to improve to the point where finding a charger stops being an issue. At that point I think people might start to realise that there isn't actually any point paying a premium for a car that could travel further. But it's all just conjecture until I actually pull the trigger and try living with an EV myself, which is why it is great to hear the experiences of people who have lived with these cars for a while. 

If I had your "edge trip" to do I'd do it between 7pm and 8am. Have a look at the Tesla app which has little graphs to show charger use over the day. It's pretty obvious when you should avoid trying to charge on busy days. Sometimes a route change that adds very little distance will take you past a low demand charge point. South of Berlin for example.

OK, seriously speaking 350 miles is 500km, and I've done a lot of 500km trips in EV's. Some it's hard, modern cars it's not, and I'll likely do one in the next few days.  My plan is to set off, drive 300km, and recharge it while I eat, then finish

If your expectation level is that it needs to do 350 miles and be small , or it's a failure you're looking forward to a life of disappointment, and if you're only doing that trip once a year (I'm not) then you might want to have a think about that.

I did 200 miles in my 40kwh ioniq (my20) the other day. Started full with around 190 miles expected range. Motorway driving for 33% of the trip, hilly A roads for 33% and flat A roads for the rest. Cool temperatures and wet for 50% of the trip. 

I charged for 20 minutes and added 12kw (slow ioniq charging speed) and arrived home with 35 miles off range after a reasonably quick final motorway sprint (knowing I wasn't going to run out of battery). 

Would I like a 50kw battery in the ioniq? Yes, so I could store more cheap power in it. If there was extra battery size and it cost a few thousand quid more for that version (there isn't) would i buy it for at the increased interest cost? Probably not. 

It's easy enough to plan trips where stopping around every 125 miles isn't a problem for me. 

I managed the nc500 last September in the ioniq (1600 miles total) with no major issues even with the sparse infrastructure along the Scottish coastline. Saw a few other EVs , mainly at the Tesla chargers. 

Thanks for the real world reports folks. Very helpful. 

Re the 500 mile trip - if it was me I'd just plug it into a fast charger each time I stopped to pee or for a leg stretch, which would be around every 2.5-3 hrs (ish) - in the 15 mins it takes to walk across the carpark, into services, pee and walk back again is enough for a decent addition. And assuming you're stopping for an actual proper break / meal (30 mins?) at some point during this 10 hr+ drive just plug it in then, that would be enough to get most cars back from 20-80% ish, so looking at 2 x 15 min "quick" stops and one 30 min stop.   With sufficient forward planning that you're targeting chargers with plenty of availability the journey should be quite stress free and not really any longer than in an ICE.   Oh - just to add, target these charge stops for when the battery charges fastest - in most cars that's in the 10-50% ish range - a 15 min charge starting from 10% will get you a lot of range very quickly, whereas at higher %ges it's pretty slow, so don't bother trying to get it back to 100% unless you happen to be stopped anywy. 

I’ve done a couple of 400 mile trips and as above, use the satnav and onboard tech to let the car direct you to regular food/comfort break 15 min stops every couple of hours and it stays topped up between 20 and 50% pretty much throughout. 

Planning a trip to Rutland Water and noticed that the Normanton Car Park map indicates they have EV charge points but can't find any details about the. Has anyone got any info about them ?

I'm loving the EV concept...but I think I'm now very bored with driving.

I've found my driving is now a bit slower and as such, journeys take longer and I'm bored. Been many years since I enjoyed a drive drive, but I normally happily jump in the car and drive where I need to go.

Nowadays, I get in and go, but I'm bored by halfway through the journey as I'm driving slower and watching the battery charge drop.

I'm driving a bit slower to eek out battery, but driving is now incredibly boring, so whilst completely sold on the EV concept, my own take on it is turning it boring!

A positive - my annual mileage is down slightly so I'm not driving as much as I was.

I know cars are different but unless it's the last charge before home I charge to at least 85% at which point it's still taking 60% of its max charge rate and usually 90% charge when it's still taking 50% of max charge rate. That's nearly double the range compared with 10-50%. The extra time charging is under 15 minutes. Now consider how long it takes to go off route to the charger, find the thing, plug in and start it etc. at best, and queue up or find the charger won't start at worst. If I were trying to optimise time I'd probably stop around 80%, but stopping at 50% charge when it's still taking over 80% of max charge rate makes no sense. 

Some cars reach their peak charge rates at quite high levels of charge, notably the Mini Cooper 2020 at 75% and BMW i3 2020 at 85%. In both of those charging to 85% is the most time efficient.

........ Ignore

Edukators post on considering how / when to charge especially when compared to mine is a great example of the thought process needed when planning trips on an EV. Each person will end up with a different approach depending on their specific cars range and charge.characteristics, their type of journeys and preferences. A key thing he said was "unless it's my last charge before home" - for me it is vanishingly rare to do more than one charge on any journey (maybe once a year on summer holiday?) so for me it is almost always "the last charge before home", - so don't copy exactly what anyone says, but work it out for yourself following that thought process.

Posted by: binman

↑

Normanton Car Park map indicates they have EV charge points

Type 2, 22kw, 2 chargers. Alfa power. According to charge finder. 

Lots of interesting and useful input above there.

The difference in mentality between EV and ICE (with regards to 'filling up') is akin to what @whatgoesup posts - jsut top up whenever you stop..

We did a trip from Hove to the Netherlands.. 320 miless, with Le Shuttle. Leave home with 100%. Plug in at le Shuttle whilst waiting to be called...add 20% or so.. plug in after a few hours to pee and eat..add 40% or so..then arrive at the destination with 15% or so, and plug in there (and leave car in car park, charging on slow charger, but it DOESN'T MATTER, because we don't use the car for a week anyway!)

This is in a polestar 2 with about 240miles of range

DrP

Hopefully one day this will be the norm for EV's

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/byd-battery-charge-tesla-b2731603.html

Posted by: StuE

↑

Hopefully one day this will be the norm for EV's

As far as the car is concerned, maybe, but you need some serious infrastructure to make it work.  And how many millions would it cost to upgrade everything just to save people the occasional ten or fifteen minutes?

Exactly my thoughts - the biggest gains will come from things like improving availability of affordable overnight charging for those without off street parking, slow charging wherever people spend time (tourist attractions, restaurants, hotels etc) and filling in the places where infrastructure is weak eg mid Wales. That'll do for 99% of journeys leaving outliers like weekly commuters who drive from Aberdeen to Zurich nonstop while towing a caravan.

The on-street charging is a much bigger problem you're right.  Mid Wales is a harder problem to solve though - I think the reason there are no chargers there is that there's not enough electricity supply, so it might need new grid cabling. That would get expensive.

Re caravan towing - honestly that would be a cinch if they just put in pull-through charging bays at motorway services. Most cars have enough charge to get off the motorway network to the caravan site even when towing.  Then when you get to your site you can run out for a charge afterwards. Of course it's not that convenient to stop every 150 miles but caravan towing isn't convenient anyway so that would probably be ok.

Given the output of theWest Wales hydro stations I used to monitor there's enough grid to get lots of leccy in or out, Molgrips. A few car chargers are insignificant. Wales produces about twice the electricity it consumes and demand has fallen in line with UK demand since 2007. Demand is down about 25% since then mainly due to the reduction in lighting consumption. The grid currently has plenty of capacity for EV charging and heat pumps

Posted by: DrP

↑

The difference in mentality between EV and ICE (with regards to 'filling up') is akin to what @whatgoesup posts - just top up whenever you stop..

That does require being able to get onto a charger whenever and wherever you stop though. 

Cars like that BYD show that manufacturers still think that they need to produce cars that can travel as far between refuelling stops as ICE cars and refuel almost as quickly in order to tempt people out of their gas guzzlers and I'm sure they know their market. 

I do wonder whether that's just a temporary thing though and if/when the infrastructure improves to the point where getting on a charger stops being an issue we might see a shift in mentality. 

I'm guessing that few people would be prepared to pay the premium to buy an iphone that lasts twice as long as that's just not a feature that most people need. In fact, I have no idea how long the battery lasts in my iphone. I plug it in when I get in the car (to use CarPlay) and I stick it on a charger overnight. All I know is that it never runs out of charge so whatever the battery life might be is irrelevant as it is long enough. If you could plug an EV in whenever you stopped then I expect most people would soon realise that they don't actually need that much range and the focus would probably shift to something else. But for now, range seems to be the number one issue for most people contemplating a move to an EV. 

@Edukator - isn't that the transmission grid (overhead high voltage lines to take it from generating sites to around the UK) you're talking about though rather than the in the road grid to enable 100-250kw ultra rapid chargers? That last point has always been what I have read is the issue with getting more put into rural wales.

So site them near transformers just like IECharge do in France. They're usually a few minutes off route but at 25cents people are prepared to go out of their way as posts on this thread demonstrate.

Given the economies in streetlighting in recent years adding a 7kW type 2 or even a 25kW CCS is possible in just about any village that has street lighting. I've used 25kW CCS in France, clearly limited to the power available at the site.

Given the output of theWest Wales hydro stations I used to monitor there's enough grid to get lots of leccy in or out, Molgrips

Yeah that's West Wales, all the infrastructure is about getting to and from England - rail, road and electricity; and historically minerals and things heading to or from Ireland. Same is true in North Wales. That's why you have two main communication channels in the far North and far South of the country, and very little joining the two together.  There are positives and negatives to this, of course.  This map shows what I mean - see the big gap in Mid Wales:

Almost every map you can draw of Wales looks the same.  And it's debatable whether or not this will ever change - you'd need millions spent on upgrading the network just to serve people (like me) who want to drive up the centre of the country. There aren't many of us so the money is clearly better spent elsewhere. From my point of view I love driving to North Wales on the A470 but it's about the same distance and time to go via Shrewsbury on a route that passes many more chargers.  It'd be a different story for people going from West Wales to North Wales, for sure, but they'd end up going through Aberystwyth probably anyway where there are chargers.  So it's a questionable business case.  Perhaps they could put in a battery storage site with chargers near Rhaeadr fed by some turbines and solar - that would help.

Interestingly - the dead spot on that map extends into Herefordshire, and Hereford severely lacks EV chargers as well.  Shrewsbury seems to be covered though and the A5 towards North Wales, and there are chargers along that route including a lovely 8-charger hub near Corwen. So clearly the proximity to the grid backbone has an effect. Probably on more than just EV chargers though as I expect it affects industrial demand as well which would also affect residential demand and end up becoming self-fulfilling. As most infrastructure, really.

Some of you have very weak bladders and seem to love dawdling around service stations! - Whenever I have a long journey which seems to be all the flippin time at the moment unfortunately, I just get in and don't stop till I get there or need fuel....I absolutely hate stopping enroute. About 4 times a year we drive to the north of Holland from the tunnel (about 300 miles each way not including the 80 miles on the UK side) and as I can do door to door with one tank we rarely stop unless we have a specific reason. Same goes for UK trips.I know I'll have to modify my behaviour but its annoying no matter how many EV evangelists tell me it isn't!

I think I would be fine with regular ev charge stops. I break long journeys down to 2hr legs anyway. Can't go more than that without getting out and running about a bit. Can't be good to slog it out for the length of a tank (550 miles for me) sat in one position. 

Posted by: acyclist

↑

Some of you have very weak bladders and seem to love dawdling around service stations! -

It's not just about needing a pee - HSE recommend a break after 2 hours of driving because your attention and reactions start to deteriorate beyond that. 300 miles will likely be closer to 5 hours and you certainly won't be driving the same when you finish as when you started. One or two short stops to reset would make the trip safer for you, your passengers and other road users.

I understand what you are saying @winston and go back ten years and that would be me too. I used to think nothing of driving across the country with barely a stop. But these days I tend to stop a bit more. Not the bladder really, just don't enjoy driving as much. @DickBarton mentioned that an EV had made driving boring. For me it's no the EV, just age. I used to drive around on the edge much more than I do these days. Now I'm happy to just waft along and prioritize comfort and a good audio system over performance that I'll never use. Maybe age has brought a bit of wisdom. Maybe I've just got boring. Probably a bit of both. 

Posted by: acyclist

↑

.I know I'll have to modify my behaviour but its annoying no matter how many EV evangelists tell me it isn't!

Why? Just stick with ICE if it works for yo. I really don't think anybody is going to force you into an EV until there are EVs that can do what you want. Just look at the recent watering down of the ZEV mandate.  

Just stick with ICE if it works for you

But no - there is more to this than our personal preferences. The decisions we make have consequences.

I don't think I'll be going back to ice...I'm very much sold on the idea of EV.

I'm just finding it boring...I tend to view driving now as just a means to get me where I need to be to do something. I've clearly no patience and the driving isn't what I'm going to do. I think as my car journeys are now taking longer (depending distance, not by a lot of by a while) I'm getting bored as it means doing my thing doesn't start as it soon as it used to.

I reckon Builth Wells would be a good place for a charging station. Population 2 500 so there will enough surplus power available on local transformers. 

Yes - the WG want there to be strong links between North and South, and the road that links them is the A470. You'd ideally want them at Builth and Dolgellau. There are (thankfully) now two at Dolgellau, but that's not enough. As discussed before two banks of 8 or more is far more useful than eight sets of two.

But for now, range seems to be the number one issue for most people contemplating a move to an EV. 

The issue for me isn’t range but the availability of chargers at peak time. I specifically bought a Polestar long range to reduce how often I needed to charge away from home for those outlier journeys. Mostly my trips are 2 x week to office 75 miles each way mostly motorway. Free charging at work so saving a chunk of change and I’ve got home charging for rest of the week. Almost perfect use case right?

If I only had 150 mile range that puts me on the edge of range and if I want to drive to Cornwall on an August Bank holiday the nervousness would be around availability of charges not being occupied. That’s not range anxiety but a convenience one.

I’d be saying the same if I had an ICE car with a very small petrol tank BTW.

There will be a lot of EVs doing 50mph on the way down to Cornwall so they don't have to charge on route next August bank holiday. 😉 That's tongue in cheek but I've sometimes driven to the coast on the route nationale because the car does the return trip without a charge. If I take the autoroute I know it's going to be a pain charging on busy days.

Posted by: Perchy Panther

↑

But isn’t really an issue at all for people who have already made the move. 

 

Weird, huh?

I take your point and it is a good one but I've had a fair few conversations (online and in-person) with EV owners now and there are some who will say that if they had their time again they would buy a car with a longer range. Usually that turns out to be down to a specific journey that they make where charging is an issue. So, gain, it might be the infrastructure that is the issue rather than the range itself, but the two are quite closely linked. 

Leaf owners…

How do you get on with your CHAdeMO sockets? Are there less charging options?

 I’ve talked my mum in to at least taking a test drive in an EV to replace an aging Kuga.

I think the Leaf looks a good option then realised it still uses CHAdeMO.

 Issue or not?