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Does it? Is it a greater chance than a tank of petrol? Serious question.
There are billions of tanks of petrol sat around (think of every engine still in use.... Not just vehicles) and bursting into flames is extremely rare.
Batteries, on the other hand, do have a bit of a rep for combustion and that's before some back street garage has "repaired" them!
So I'd say the answer is yes!
Batteries, on the other hand, do have a bit of a rep for combustion
Got any real stats though? There is a huge amount of disinformation on this, most of it is bollocks spouted by angry and idiotic petrol headed Americans.
The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency (MSB) reported 23 fires in 611,000 EVs during 2022, or 0.004 per cent in a year, which makes it 20 times less likely to happen than ICE car fires, which burned 3,400 times in 4.4 million cars, or 0.08 per cent.
There aren't many detailed studies into ev fires but the Swedish one mentioned above was apparently thorough and came to the conclusion that ICE vehicles are catching fire much more than EVs are, but that EV fires can be harder to manage. Also, the EV fleet in that survey is likely to be newer and therefore probably better maintained than the ICE fleet so there's still the question of what happens to those stats when Bob's Back Street garage has soldered in a new cell from AliExpress
loving my EV that I got in March so much that we are considering chopping in my wife’s 9 year old panda for a 500e. Her car is at that stage of bills coming in the near future so either stick with it and put the money in as the bills come in or go for the EV. She spends about €120 a month on petrol and this would be about €20 in electricity freeing up €100 towards the monthly and no bills for a few years. Was mooching at a dealer today who said they have pre registered 2023 cars sitting with zero miles on them if I was interested!!! Looks like they are really not shifting them so might get a good deal. TBH as my wife sees cars as a tool/mobile bin and not a luxury, dings every car and eats clutches etc so we have always kept away from new/nearly new cars but as EVs are so easy to drive I think it would actually help. Be interesting to see what sort of deal the garage come back with…..and more importantly, what her insurance company say.
@mboy I have a 2 week old id7 tourer (base model). It’s awesome. It’s done approx 1000 miles and averaged 3.8mi/kWh. 500 miles of that has been in dark/rain across from Chester to Ashton under lyne in rush hour - drive there was about 3.6, return journeys around 5pm in the light and not rain were up to about 4.5.
I hoped I’d get 300 miles to a full charge on average which so far seems realistic.
I’d guess 15-20 years will be more like the age current EV batteries will get to the point they’re near useless in terms of being able to hold charge and as others have said who know what tech will exist then to regen them or if governments will offer subsided replacement schemes etc.
But it seems that many batteries are designed *not* to be easily replaced or upgraded.
It seems to me that having an easily upgraded battery would be sensible and desirable.
But it seems that many batteries are designed *not* to be easily replaced or upgraded.
Really? I have seen a few tear downs, they don't seem particularly difficult. What makes you think they are specifically designed against that? I'm pretty sure most manufacturers realise they'd be shooting themselves in the foot big-time if in 10 years' time they get a reputation for being un-repairable. That would destroy their rep in a way they would never recover from.
"But it seems that many batteries are designed *not* to be easily replaced or upgraded. It seems to me that having an easily upgraded battery would be sensible and desirable."
Not sure that is much different from an engine, no? Though as I understand it the battery is more structural in some vehicles.
In terms of repairability over the longer term, I'd be more concerned about the amount of electronics in the car. Which isn't now that different between an EV and an ICE.
Car design has been a nightmare for a while now, used to be designed more around ease of maintenance, but now it's ease of manufacture, a few manufacturers also tend to design out the ability for third parties to maintain their vehicles, with technology advancing it'll not get any better in this area i fear.
As for EVs, they are the future, technology is advancing in battery, car and computing areas, i dare say the EVs of today will be outdated in 10 years, so anyone buying an EV thinking in 10 years it'll be worth much is not going to fair well i think, but that's the same with ICE now, when it comes to owning cars, we just spend x amount each year and will need to factor that in for future purchases, and just suck up amortisation on our purchases.
The amount of electronics is about the same in ICE and EV, however EVs have the inverter and associated electrics under the bonnet. However there is very little heat and vibration under there. I drove 2hrs on windy roads, then when I stopped I put my hand on the inverter engine and it was barely lukewarm. Compare that to the heat and vibration your ICE electronics have to put up with.
The battery can be structural but that doesn't mean it's part of the chassis itself, it's just a chassis member - and it can be removed. How do you think they get it in there?
This is a complete Kia EV6 77.4kWh battery listed on eBay (for £3.5k) alongside all the other car parts for everything under the sun. Looks like it's just dropped out from underneath, you can see the fixings around the edge.
A replacement engine for my Merc is £2k many years older than this battery, and considerably more work to replace. Thinking about it, someone needs to come out with a way to make this into a home battery because that's vastly cheaper than what's on offer!
used to be designed more around ease of maintenance
I'm guessing you didn't own (and try to work on) an Alfa Romeo in the 80s.!
I’m guessing you didn’t own (and try to work on) an Alfa Romeo in the 80s.!
hah yes - a friend had an Arna back in the day (a joint thing with Alfa and Datsun IIRC). In-board disk brakes and a weird upside-down engine that made getting to the spark plugs almost impossible.
But it seems that many batteries are designed *not* to be easily replaced or upgraded.
My ID3 had battery module 10 replaced, so I would assume that the VW MEB platform does have replaceable battery sections. possibly 10 or more. The only downside was it had to go to a main dealer in Leeds (rather than the local skipton one)
anyone buying an EV thinking in 10 years it’ll be worth much is not going to fair well i think, but that’s the same with ICE now
Not always the case.
Test drove a new Model 3 and was massively impressed. Man maths sums reckon I'd save near on £150 a month on fuel costs, so off to look at a 2020 Dual Motor with the sport wheels this morning. Monster depreciation has happened and it's a lot of car for 24k
a 2020 Dual Motor with the sport wheels this morning.
Lease company gave me a purchase price of £20k on my 2021 Model 3 LR with enhanced autopilot, so £24k is a rip-off. You can pay Tesla £1000 to get the performance upgrade on a dual-motor, so unless you're particularly tempted by giant wheels this is the easiest and cheapest way.
Try to find a 2021 or newer if you can, as they have numerous improvements over the previous generation including the heat pump. The sweet spot would be a late 2022, as this gets the AMD Ryzen infotainment but keeps ultrasonic parking sensors.
Got the price wrong it's 22k, it's a LR with the optional sport wheels and grey paint. Budget will stretch to a 21 car, but with 45k+ miles and I'd rather have the lower mileage as this one is 25k. Late 22 cars are way out of my budget
I would much rather have a more modern car with significant upgraded features than a lower milage one. In ten years' time the difference between a 120k car and a 140k car will be insignificant but you'll have had the better features for all that time and still have them.
If the 2020 and 2021 cars are physically the same then you could go by mileage. But the 2021 is significantly better with improved interior, soundproofing (eg double pane front windows), efficiency, and the heat pump makes a huge difference in the winter.
So what's the going rate per month on salary sacrifice these days - seems £400 plus on ours at work, and can't be justified as I cycle to work. I am looking to spend £30-£40k on a van next year that I will keep for leisure - the equivalent electric version is much cheaper but range is useless - 120 mile - won't work to get us into Wales over big hills.
Big hills don't make a lot of difference to EV range. And you know, you can always stop and recharge. But yes, £40k is a hell of a lot of money for a vehicle with 120 mile range. I'd rather have a car with a bike rack tbh but that's another argument.
So what’s the going rate per month on salary sacrifice these days – seems £400 plus on ours at work
I’m not sure what you mean? Salary sacrifice will be a % off whatever the lease price is. Mrs dd’s last employer used Octopus to run the scheme as it was hundreds of cars. It was handy in that insurance, maintenance, tyres etc was included in one monthly fee. My present employer is doing a straight 1 + 36 and administering it for employees through HR/accountant (we’re an SME so not that many cars to administer). The savings are quite a bit better without outsourcing it to a 3rd party provider.
i agree with molgrips. £30-40k for 120 miles is a bit rubbish.
Just been looking at teh smart Brabus stats...
3.7 sec 0-60.. faster than my P2 as it looks lighter!
It makes me chuckle that a Smart car is faster (accelerating) than the entry level (£90k) , and POSSIBLY the next level Porche Taycan!!!
DrP
It makes me chuckle that a Smart car is faster (accelerating) than the entry level (£90k) , and POSSIBLY the next level Porche Taycan!!!
Yep - but the entry level [Porsche] Taycan is RWD and can't get the power down that well.... next up is the 4S which is AWD does 0-60 in 3.5.
Frankly they're all fast but it's not just about speed is it?!
Which would you rather be in? If I was spending £45k I'd rather buy an 18 month old Taycan with 15k on the clock.
I think you’d rather an ICE @sharkbait. Unless you’ve checked what Porsche will do if your Taycan battery fails in twenty years time?
Taycan 4s, AWD, is 0-60 of 3.7, so the same!
Anyway, my comment wasn't about which is more luxury etc etc (obvs the porche), but that nowadays, with EV power, you could out 'drag race' a high spec Porche in a basic(ish) family car!
No need to mod, boost the turbo, or remap!
Sorry that was lost on you!
DrP
Taycan 4s, AWD, is 0-60 of 3.7, so the same!
3.5s with Launch Control
nowadays, with EV power, you could out ‘drag race’ a high spec Porche in a basic(ish) family car No need to mod, boost the turbo, or remap!
You make that sound like the Taycan is an ICE but they're both electric soooo [shrugs].
The base Taycan is hardly 'high spec' - hence why it's the 'base' model!
Ah, yes, I was looking at the 0-62 times...
You make that sound like the Taycan is an ICE but they’re both electric soooo [shrugs].
Not really my intention - historically the powerful and fast [ICE] engines really were 'reserved' for supercars or highly modified versions of basic family cars (M5, RS6 etc)...
As a not - Deadlydarcey's Smart car will out accelerate all 718 Cayman & 718 Boxster, all Cayenne ranges, many 911s etc etc... Even the highest spec/trim..
Nowadays you can get supercar acceleration in a basic family car (thinking P2, brabus smart, tesla M3 DM etc) that you can get on salary sacrifice etc etc...
I can't recall my dad saying "son, my Volvo could out accelerate that Ferrari"
Anyway.. I'msure you get where I'm coming from (that EV motors can now be whacked into any old car, and make them go fast)
DrP
Without wishing to probe too deeply into anybody else's finances, I'm also interested in how these salary sacrifice schemes work out overall.
I'm a simple fellow and have always just bought whatever I can comfortably afford with what I have in the bank. Originally that was old bangers, more recently it's been new cars, but always with an eye on the total cost and what else I could do with that money.
In principle a salary sacrifice scheme sounds like a great deal. Buy a car with your pre-tax salary. Sounds great. But when I try to look a bit closer it seems that you are not buying the whole car with you pre-tax salary at all as there is usually a deposit and a final lump sum to pay in order to actually own the car. So really you're just getting a discount on the depreciation, which for EVs is still pretty steep.
Take the Smart # 1 Brabus mentioned above. You can pick up a one year old model with around 10k on the clock for around £27k. What would the total price of buying one outright on a salary sacrifice scheme be?
Take the Smart # 1 Brabus mentioned above. You can pick up a one year old model with around 10k on the clock for around £27k. What would the total price of buying one outright on a salary sacrifice scheme be?
I view any money spent on a car as money down the drain, that is rather not spend. If I’m going to have car, then I’d like a nice one please. Even if I have to burst into tears every time I see Nige pull alongside me in his Taycan.
The Smart Brabus is a pre-registered sat-in-a-UK port-somewhere car so is being offered at a good discount. The Lease is around £420 on a 1+36 contract. No, I won’t own it. My employer will pay the lease and insurance, apply all discounts and I end up with a net deduction of around £215 plus insurance (which I also pay before tax, etc) but will be around £35 pm.
split between mrs dd and me, that’s not much more than £100 per month each to have a nice, but admittedly way less erection inducing than a Porsche, car.
the last car we owned ended up costing us a fortune in timing belts etc (scheduled) just to try and sell the ****ing thing.
this car will be fully covered for the 3 years we “have” it. The only thing we’ll have to pay for is one maintenance and maybe some new shoes. I imagine with the (less luxurious, less prestigious) acceleration, and mrs dd’s heavy foot, we’ll probably get through a set of those.
all £ on cars is throwing it away. I’ve “owned” cars for years. They’re a pain in the arse.
as above, the salary sacrifice schemes are generally a lease, but more cost effective than a personal one as tax is deducted from it at source, so your net payment in a month is lower than doing it privately. Some include maintenance and tyres and servicing, some don't, depends on the scheme provider and the deal that the employer sets up.
Thanks both, yes I get the theoretical advantages of buying stuff with your pre-tax income, I'm just wondering how that actually works in practice.
If I've done my maths right the Brabus will actually cost you (after tax) around £8k over the three years. So what would it then cost to keep the car? Also, are there any limits on how far you can drive it in those three years? I typically do around 20k per year.
@Roverpig I can only discuss my Salary Sacrifice scheme. I have no idea if they are all the same.
I have a 7 month old Audi Q4 eTron Sportback Black Edition. Book value is £67k (with a few upgrades).
No deposit required. Over a 4 year term and 15,000 miles a year.
This is a cost of approx £520 a month. (Difference between my pre car bring home and current bring home)
I installed an EV charger at my girlfriends, cost £1000.
Charging is pennies. Our electricity bill has actually gone down, we’ve moved washing, dish washing to all be at the same time as the car charging. The charger has paid for itself now, my old fuel bill was £60 a week approx.
I don’t have to pay for servicing, insurance or new tyres.
My previous car was a Cupra (Leon model) 2 litre petrol (300 hp, same as the EV). The Cupra was a great car, absolutely loved it. But it was 4 years old and while it had no issues the fuel bill, insurance and tyres added up. I paid monthly for the car on PCP.
For me, I’m not paying any more than I was previously. At the end of my PCP deal I could have bought the car outright (balloon), but I wanted a shiney new car….
I get I’m fortunate enough to be in this position. I know I could drive a cheaper car, pay more into my pension l, retire earlier…. However, this works for me.
I've had my Smart #1 Brabus for 8 months now, it has been a while since I've had anything that I've not played the "what would I swap it with" game after 8 months but there is genuinely nothing I'd swap it for right now. Boot is tiny, lots of other EVs have better range, that's pretty much my negative list. Usually just me in it, golf clubs fit with one seat forward and tilted. It has done 2 trips into the office this week and some general running around and I'll charge it overnight tonight. Overall running costs are same or slightly less than an Octavia estate on previous very cheap lease deal.
They were 3.9 to 60 when I got mine so not sure if re-tested or power increased but it is plenty quick. Lovely place to sit, had loads of comments how nice it is and how Mercedes like. With the power it has in Comfort (RWD until AWD needed) it'll twitch at the rear before the power is cut or front wheels join in, that mode is limited power and is still quicker than most cars around. Overall it is a fantastic cruiser into work, inside lane dynamic cruise, decent stereo, good controls and Apple car play etc, then turns into a proper quick car when needed. I absolutely love it.
Oh and it has a super annoying rattle behind the screen but with something playing I can ignore it easily enough not to take it back. Actually add in the black paint is properly soft, came with swirl marks and difficult not to add more. Benefits of a lease not having to care that much I guess.
Also, are there any limits on how far you can drive it in those three years?
yes, and the cost per mile over is punitive. You’ll find that, I think, it’s annual mileage that affects monthly cost most. 20k pa will easily lob £150-200 onto whatever lease deal is showing on screen (which always look like bargain because they’ll be a 9/12 month down, +48 etc; so ignore those.)
as for owning the car afterwards, I haven’t checked. Some lease companies want them back and won’t sell. Some will.
maybe in three years, I can get the Taycan. :o)
Anyway.. I’msure you get where I’m coming from (that EV motors can now be whacked into any old car, and make them go fast)
100% agree.... it's almost the new norm!
Deadlydarcey’s Smart car will out accelerate all 718 Cayman & 718 Boxster, all Cayenne ranges, many 911s etc etc… Even the highest spec/trim..
Absolutely - but it's not all about the speed obvs.
[True story]
We were pottering [50mph] down the road in MrsSB's 718 Boxster with the roof down on Monday and I was thinking how lovely it was to just listen to the gentle thump, thump, thump of the boxer engine right behind us. They're probably going to make the 718 all electric and it just wouldn't be the same without that background beat. You don't have to go quick!
[/True story]
just wouldn’t be the same without that background beat
many EV's can have a background beat of your choice coming through the loudspeakers ...
They’re probably going to make the 718 all electric
Pretty much guaranteed for launch next year - boxster version first then cayman. Watching that with interest...
Absolutely – but it’s not all about the speed obvs.
Agreed..despite loving the #EVlife...
I still really enjoy watching YouTube videos on ICE tech, and car modding/racing!
I very nearly bought a dihatsu copen, just for fun..!
DrP
Thanks for the details of the salary sacrifice schemes. It sounds as though, despite the tax advantages, it still tends to end up costing a fair wack. But it's all relative and depends how keen you are to have a new car and what else you could do with the money of course. There are no wrong answers really, as long as the kids aren't going without food 🙂
The Smart Brabus mentioned above comes with a choice of two engine sounds if you really want it to fart when you put your foot down. Thankfully you can switch it off though 🙂
Thankfully you can switch it off though 🙂
oh I’m very much having it on. I’ll close my eyes and dream I’m in a nice, slow Porsche.
(I won’t close my eyes, promise!)