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Like I say it uses different regen rates.
Rate meaning what, exactly?
Braking force is provided by the motor generating current OR the brake pads. If you slow down at 2m/s/s then it will generate X amount of current, regardless of how you signal to the car that you want to slow down - lifting off the accelerator or pressing the brake pedal. All changing the regen setting does is change how much braking is applied when you lift off.
Selecting a higher regen rate doesn't mean more energy is recouped over the course of a journey if you are slowing at the same rate. All it changes is how frequently you need to touch the brake pedal.
All changing the regen setting does is change how much braking is applied when you lift off.
Would more engine braking not mean there is more regenerated too?
Not for the same rate of deceleration no.
It never uses friction brakes unless you need them i.e. you are braking hard. If you slow at a normal speed it's regenerating the same amount, regardless of which pedal you are pressing. Cha ring the regen setting just changes the pedal behaviour not how much energy you actually get back. If you put the regen setting to zero, the car coasts when you lift off; but when you press the brake pedal it regens just the same.
Also, they faster your road speed the more current the motor can generate which means the more regen force is available. Therefore at low enough speeds there is hardly any available. So when you leave your car for a few days so the discs get rust on them, and you set off, the first time you slow for the junction at the end of your road you don't hear rusty disc noise until you get almost to a stop then you hear them cut in.
Shouldn't the question be, does the more aggressive regen result in a better mpg?
No, because if you slow from 60mph in say 250m it makes no difference if you are pressing the brake pedal or lifting off the pedal. The car is doing the exact same thing.
There’s a definitely a noticeable amount of how much it slows in the different modes, something I never noticed as much with the Golf. It makes a huge difference though, descending Glencoe added 20 miles of range. I’m still experimenting with manual vs auto though. I do know I use regen way more that the Mrs and I get far better miles per kw.
Shouldn’t the question be, does the more aggressive regen result in a better mpg?
M pet KW but yes.
There could be other reasons you get better m/kWh than your wife of course.
You would have added the same miles descending Glencoe if you'd had your foot on the brake pedal as you did with higher regen settings. The regen setting isn't .ore regeneration overall, it's just more regen when you lift your foot. If you get less regen when lifting your foot you apply the rest of the available regen with the brake pedal instead.
Yes, if you lift off it apples more braking force via regeneration; but if you want to slow at a gentle rate you end up not lifting off as much, you feather the pedal. Net result is identical to if you set no regen and just touched the brake pedal lightly.
Pressing the brake pedal in an EV or hybrid activates regen first, and only activates the friction brakes if you brake hard.
I reckon yes, Shinton. Using mode B I almost always slow with regen to 7kmh when the service brakes take over anyhow. Using D I'd have to back off so early to avoid using service brakes it would annoy other road users or the passengers who wouldn't appreciate regen braking + service brakes just before the junction. I find mode B ultimately smoother as it avoids needing to brake hard enough to activate the service brakes.
Regen braking is progressively less efficient as you slow so using it fully as soon as you want to slow down will get the best recharge and reduce service brake use.
M pet KW but yes.
I'm in hybrid mode 😉
Using D I’d have to back off so early to avoid using service brakes
No, pressing the brake pedal doesn't activate service (friction) brakes unless you brake hard. It's still regen.
I know, Molgrips. Thing is the car is far better at calculating how hard it can brake without the service brakes than I am -especially as it's variable being highly temperature dependant. If I try to do it myself I'll either have to back off earlier or judge exactly how hard to brake without activating the service brakes.
In mode B I can get down the Col d'Aubisque without the service brakes in mode B. In mode D I can't calculate as well as the car and invariably end up on the service brakes at some point.
B mode might mean something different in a hybrid. In my Prius, B mode meant that when coasting down a hill it coupled the engine and wheels so that actual engine braking slowed you down rather than friction or regen brakes. This was meant to assist you if you were coming down a long hill so you could avoid riding the brakes all the way down. Because it had small motor and small batteries there wasn't a large amount of regen available. It was plenty for normal driving but not for big hills. And by big I mean Alpine etc not most of the UK.
In mode D I can’t calculate as well as the car and invariably end up on the service brakes at some point.
How do you know you're on the service brakes?
Because the blue line stops moving. The Zoé has a big circular display. If additional braking doesn't make the line swing anti-clockwise you're on service brakes. And you can feel the difference.
Mode B on a Zoé is just a different programme to mode D which increases the level of regen at a given speed. When the battery is warm at 70kmh or over it'll go to 47kW before the service brakes kick in and give about 30kW without touching the brakes. Slower and colder and you get lower numbers. In D in theory you should get the same maximum regen but I've never seen it. You get what feels like about half the regen you get in mode B when not using the brake pedal.
I can't imagine any reason for the computer deciding to use friction brakes when regen would do. Provided it's not icy and the battery's not full etc.
X newtons of braking force at Y speed should always result in Z regeneration current regardless which pedal is in use or not.
There could be other reasons you get better m/kWh than your wife of course.
Yup but that is the one thing she doesn’t use. I’ve set her profile to use the auto regen to at least get some from that breaking.
I never used the brake pedal down glencoe as there was no need. There’s some very geeky Norwegians on one of the groups I’m on. They’ve crunched some huge data for all sorts on the E tron. I may see if they have any on the regen comparison.
From Renault
The driver can engage B mode on demand with a simple push on New ZOE’s electronic gear lever. Returning the engine brake to normal, unlocking the car’s inertia, is as easy as switching back to D mode. In both cases, New ZOE still converts as much kinetic energy into electricity as possible through regenerative braking.
I never used the brake pedal down glencoe as there was no need
Yes, and you would have used it if you'd been in a different mode BUT the end result would have been the same.
Ioniq 5 – Swiss Toni salesman, really quiet to drive, infotainment system not very good, boot is small. Looks stunning though.
Funnily enough went to look at one today too. We have a TM3 Performance and are at the point of looking for a replacement to the other car. I haven’t been in a car showroom for about 10 years - doesn’t look like anything has changed, we had Swiss Tony on ‘roids, which put me off from the word go 🤦♂️
Looks. Diversive. In white it looked turd. They had a matte grey one which looked better, but not great.
Interior - looked really cheap, which is saying something as the Tesla isn’t exactly premium quality, but it was still a significantly better place to be. The infotainment system was especially bad.
Have been playing the game of planning routes with the normal ICE car alongside the Tesla & suffice to say if you need to be out and about a bit for work, it’s a total pain in the arse. For that point alone, I think I’m just going to stick it out and wait for the Model Y. The supercharger network is a massive positive, still.
Ioniq 5 interior gets rave reviews from the press.
Ioniq 5 interior gets rave reviews from the press.
Which just goes to show, it’s important to go and see one.
I get all you're saying, Molgrips. What you're failing to see is that in mode B the car automatically often gives you max regen the moment you lift off a lot of the time. There are many temperature and speed situations when pressing the brake will get you no more regen than you have in mode B and simply add service brakes. In mode D it's almost impossible to replicate that level of regen without tipping over onto the service brakes sometimes.
It's getting a little frustrating but I'll find a way of explaining it that you understand eventually. Does everybody else get the point I'm trying to make? : The car is better at slowing down at the maximum level of regen than I am in many situations - that means less use of the service brakes during the stop.
It’s all opinions I guess but I’ve sat in both M3 and now ioniq 5 recently. Much prefer the feel and build of the latter. That’s coming from VW and BMW last two cars.
Tesla have the charger network advantage but ioniq the looks and imho the interior too.
Small range win for Tesla but (given the right charger) a charge speed advantage for ioniq 5.
The cost for a model3/y with the performance of the dual awd ioniq will be ~£150 a month more by my reckoning.
It’s getting a little frustrating but I’ll find a way of explaining it that you understand eventually. Does everybody else get the point I’m trying to make? : The car is better at slowing down at the maximum level of regen than I am in many situations – that means less use of the service brakes during the stop.
What I'm saying, on the other hand, is that a normal level of slowing down would easily be covered by regen regardless of whether or not that's activated by lifting off in B mode, or depressing the brake in D mode. Or in my car, regardless of what level of regen you have set. If you want to ride the limit of max regen for some reason, which would require a fairly high level of braking in most cases, then yes the car would be able to find that line better. But that would be fairly marginal. If you brake hard habitually, but are instead prepared to let the car take over by changing mode/settings, then I can see how you'd gain better economy by doing so. Or I guess if you have lots of big hills.
is that a normal level of slowing down would easily be covered by regen regardless of whether or not that’s activated by lifting off in B mode, or depressing the brake in D mode.
Come back to us once you've driven through the Winter, Molgrips. There are three months of the year when I'd piss other drivers off if I drove only using regen. I try to use as much regen as possible but not at the expense of driving in an unpredictable or unduly slow manner. Mode B makes best use of whatever regen braking is available - D doesn't.
Today was Tesla Model 3 test drive day. Paint, panel gaps etc as good as the Skoda and Hyundai.
Test drive was from West Drayton and the M4, M25 and M40 were stuffed so the drive was on local roads and dual carriageways around Heathrow. Not the most exciting area.
Tesla's infotainment system was fast and natural. One pedal driving likewise after about 5 minutes. Adaptive cruise control was great.
Only thing that let it down was back seat room for adults - floor is high so knees a bit uncomfortable.
Roll on the Model Y!
Paint, panel gaps etc as good as the Skoda and Hyundai.
Must have been faulty. 😉
Roll on the Model Y!
The only negative I've found with the Model3 is the boot, it's big enough for what it is but getting 2 bikes in is just such a faff and you've no chance of taking anything large to the tip or whatever.
I've just worked out today that following the recent OTA update you can now play video games whilst driving, so expect a whole new level of tesla crashes.
Drac's Tesla hate is a tedious lowlight to a good thread. Our Tesla is faultless but apparently that's just me being a short sighted fanboy. 🙄
The only negative I’ve found with the Model3 is the boot, it’s big enough for what it is but getting 2 bikes in is just such a faff and you’ve no chance of taking anything large to the tip or whatever
That's why we're waiting for the Y - need a proper hatchback as the dog isn't a fan of being shut in a saloon boot for obvious reasons & taking bikes anywhere on the odd occasion we need to is a pain. If they made the Model 3 as a hatch, we would probably have a second one by now.
Then in a few years time when Porsche bring out the GT version of the Taycan & the charger network is actually suitable for someone who uses a car a bit for work & doesn't want to be crippled, I can get what I really want & use it practically.
Drac’s Tesla hate is a tedious lowlight to a good thread. Our Tesla is faultless but apparently that’s just me being a short sighted fanboy.
It looks like it ruined your humour chip. Yes, I don’t like them, I don’t buy it into the chargers are amazing hype and I’d not buy one. Plenty people do like them as seem pleased with them.
Then in a few years time when Porsche bring out the GT version of the Taycan
It's out now. Saw one in a Waitrose (natch) car park on Saturday.
I'm also not a fan of Teslas. They look great from the outside (maybe not so much the model 3) and they drive great (I've even had the pleasure of a Model 3 Performance at Castle Combe), but I really dislike the interior. The big screen always seems like an simultaneously a design centerpiece and an afterthought. In the Model S/X it felt like they'd gone "right, we need a 17" touchscreen right in the middle - move everything to make it fit, I don't care how" and so you get this MASSIVE square plug in a curvy hole. In the model 3 it feels like they get to the end of the design process and went "drat - we forgot the screen - ah, just bob it on the dash, it'll be right" (I have similar thoughts on the last C-class WRT to the satnav), but in focussing all attention on the screen, they've managed to make a cabin that actually makes a Skoda/VW look exciting, it's just soo bland.
I feel like it's the interior Tesla envisions when cars are merely robotic taxis and you pay no attention to the interior other than a comfy seat and a TV. But at the moment, it's still a car first and foremost and, for me at least, it doesn't feel like it.
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo etc are a really nice, tactile place to be, everything to hand, no need to take your hands off the steering wheel for most functions, and when you do, you don't need to look (BMW I drive), it just falls to hand and the palcement and feel of the buttons and controls intuit what you should do.
I watched the Tesla AI Day presentation last night and came away extremely impressed (if you discount the mad bit with Musk and his "robot" at the end.
An educated guess says that they're several years ahead of their closest competition from an AI point of view and this will accelerate with their new supercomputer. This is the first time I've got the impression that the software might work in the UK*.
The thing that struck me is whether there's actually any demand for self-driving. I hate driving and would happily pay a premium to absolve myself of the job, but I think I'm in a minority.
* 99% of the time but the occasional "please help, I'm dealing with an idiot" message from the car.
Numpty basic question here from someone just starting to think an electric car in a couple of years could be brilliant. What is the infrastructure like in places abroad that you might take a car on holiday? France and Spain I guess I'm most interested in.
The thing that struck me is whether there’s actually any demand for self-driving. I hate driving and would happily pay a premium to absolve myself of the job, but I think I’m in a minority.
@flaperon - I think It's going to be one of those things like smartphones - only a small minority of people actually needed them when they were clunky things like the big Nokia and Ericsson ones, but as soon as Apple made it slick and easy, everyone realized how useful it could be. "Your phone can connect to the internet? Download songs? Upload Pictures that I've taken on it? What?!?!? Why am I carrying around 4 different items and then having to cobble them all together to make stuff work????
If you can use the time to your advantage (sleep, breakfast, TV, work, etc) not many people will care if it takes a few hours longer, the ease and simplicity will make it the go-to option.
I think self driving cars will hammer any potential for mass transit Urban Air Mobility (too complex, too inefficient, too clunky) and may even kill some short haul, intra-country flights. General Airport turnaround for a point to point journey and a 1 hour flight is ~4 hours. and you can go about 400 miles in that time. A self drving car would likely take about 5-5.5h to do the same assuming similar, unproblematic conditions.
What is the infrastructure like in places abroad that you might take a car on holiday? France and Spain I guess I’m most interested in.
Not an issue with Tesla. Eg https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/trips#/?v=M3_2020_LongRange&o=London,%20UK_London%20London%20Greater%20London @51.5073509,-0.1277583&s=&d=Madrid,%20Spain_Madrid%20M%20MD@40.4167754,-3.7037902
Can't speak for other networks. Quentin Wilson published a short video on YouTube chronicling his drive through France in a Model 3. Looked pretty idiot proof.
The thing that struck me is whether there’s actually any demand for self-driving.
There is, huge demand, but it has to be absolutely bombproof for people to have confidence in it, or it's no good at all. All-or-nothing scenario.
I've just ordered an eTron to replace the A6 - that's us fully electric with a Zoe for shorter journeys. Exciting times!
Chargemap.com covers France, not sure how good it is mind the map is quite densely populated.
I’ve just ordered an eTron to replace the A6|
You’re going to be pleasantly surprised. They're really nice to drive, huge amount of space and very comfy.
@Drac sounds good 👍
I test drove one about a year ago which was stunning. My trusted car salesman friend (yes, I know) rang me about an ex demo car that’s just come available - the 55 model which also already has a tow bar for my bike rack at a price that would be rude not to take him up on.
Besides, I secretly looking forward to the slightly raised ride height, for my creaking joints.
Well we've gone an ordered the 52kwh ID.4, delivery expected in god knows when.
That's the local pootler sorted which we don't envisage ever charging up nationally, only from home hence the smaller battery. Will wait for the tech and infrastructure to improve before moving both cars to leccy.
What is the infrastructure like in places abroad that you might take a car on holiday? France and Spain I guess I’m most interested in.
Not an issue with Tesla. Eg https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/trips#/?v=M3_2020_LongRange&o=London,%20UK_London%20London%20Greater%20London @51.5073509,-0.1277583&s=&d=Madrid,%20Spain_Madrid%20M%20MD@40.4167754,-3.7037902
Can’t speak for other networks. Quentin Wilson published a short video on YouTube chronicling his drive through France in a Model 3. Looked pretty idiot proof.
I'm in Spain, we have SuperChargers although I don't think we have as many as other countries but they do seem to be ramming more in.
Its pretty pain free and tbh the number of free slots are also shown on the map in the car.
They do seem to put them in random locations thou 🙂
The thing that struck me is whether there’s actually any demand for self-driving. I hate driving and would happily pay a premium to absolve myself of the job, but I think I’m in a minority.
Ah think about the 20mph zones people absolutely moan about.
I must admit I still find it odd when the Teslas doing its following of the lane on big sweeping bends on the motorway but all the gimmicks like and the adaptive cruise do make it munch up the miles surprisingly easy. I never really enjoyed motorways much as I didn't really drive that much due to cycling everywhere but I find it a joy to drive on the motorway nowadays post Tesla.
What is the infrastructure like in places abroad that you might take a car on holiday? France and Spain I guess I’m most interested in.
No personal experience but I frequent EV social media and web forums and from what I've seen posted charging infrasturcture in Spain is a bit problematic
What is the infrastructure like in places abroad that you might take a car on holiday? France and Spain I guess I’m most interested in
Pre Covid we did the drive down to property in Perpignan once or twice a year in our Volvo, I noticed a few IBIS autoroute hotels (I think) when we broke the journey up had Tesla chargers that always had a few UK plated Tesla's on them.
I'm guessing the French would be pretty sorted for the charging network? The road network/transportation in general is very good
all the gimmicks like and the adaptive cruise do make it munch up the miles surprisingly easy
To be fair adaptive cruise is very common these days, and yes it is fantastic. The only issue is that without engine noise you don't necessarily notice you've slowed quite a bit behind someone with poor speed control.
Who is best for installing a home charger. Any real difference between suppliers or just pick on price?
I got a recommended local spark to fit mine, bought the charge point direct myself. I know there are grants etc available but the local spark isn’t on the scheme so I didn’t get them, but it allowed me to have things where I wanted and not just where the standard installation might end up putting it, the local spark left me a drum of cable so that I could route it up through my loft and under ground to my detached garage before he came to do the installation, saved him time and me money so it’s worked out well even if I didn’t go down the grant route.
Ohme coz it has a good app.
Re chargers, OVO energy now offer 5p/kWh charging all day, but not all the time - it's managed to charge your car only when there's excess energy and only when it's renewable. Presumably though, like with my charger it'll still charge your car to your specified charge level and time even if there's no cheap energy available, you'd just pay a higher rate. This is what my tariff does if it can't meet your specified charge in the 4 cheap hours.
Apparently it works with a range of 'smart' chargers including the Ohme one.
Apparently it works with a range of ‘smart’ chargers including the Ohme one.
The Ovo website implies that it only works with the (crap) Indra chargers at the moment. It also requires a smart meter even though the calculation is done based on kWh reported by the charger, which means that pretty much anyone in the north of the country is out of luck.
The Ovo website implies that it only works with the (crap) Indra chargers at the moment.
I didn't see that - they sell the Ohme charger to OVO customers, so I assumed it worked.
Why are Indra chargers crap?
Can confirm that a family of four can go camping in a model 3. It does require black belt tetris packing skills but lets be honest, Dads enjoy that. 🤫
Molgrips - they don't have wireless so you have to run an ethernet cable to them from somewhere.
Oh yeah that is crap. Mine has a 4G SIM in it.
Can confirm that a family of four can go camping in a model 3
Does the campsite have EHU? 😂
Nice plate at llandegla today. No points for guessing what it was on.
T35LAX
A very laid-back T35?
😉
Terminal 35 at LA International airport?
I posted ages ago about the MG5 estate and how the roof bars it came with were cosmetic and couldn't actually be used. Well it turns out it was just a regulatory issue and they hadn't been tested. The new model (due nowish I think) has been tested so has functional roofrails, but interestingly the regulatory stuff was retrospective so any of the older models can now utilise their roof rails officially too.
Just found out that Zap Map has an Android Auto/Car Play option, which would be great except that you have to subscribe and it feels like a lot of money unless you are driving for work or something.
You need to be able to lob them a fiver for three weeks access over your holiday or something.
Yeah they added that recently but I’m not paying that price.
You guys might want to rethink your Tesla orders if you have one. The new Superchargers in Cornwall are charging £1/kWh at the moment...
The faff associated with charging stations needs to go. The tech will be sorted, someone needs to stop these providers taking the piss with subscriptions and cards and the like. Imagine the same palaver with petrol stations?
Government should buy them all out and make it 20-30p/kWh with contactless contract free payment across the board.
You guys might want to rethink your Tesla orders if you have one. The new Superchargers in Cornwall are charging £1/kWh at the moment…
This would be extraordinary, triple the cost of any other supercharger, eye watering stuff.
Who told you this? The only new chargers in Cornwall are in Camborne and they're currently (yesterday) free to use. Can't find anywhere saying that they're going to £1pkwh when they start charging.
Agreed Molgrips there needs to be a simpler process, most seem to make it easy now. But, still the odd one insist on some form of subscription. The council chargers here that were free now use a supplier I’ve never heard of. It involved installing another app as they’re not contactless. And yes there should be a cap, certainly no more than 30p.
This would be extraordinary, triple the cost of any other supercharger, eye watering stuff.
Not been personally but someone who charged there after it opened posted this photo on Twitter:
I don't know how supercharger billing works but for the suppliers I use in France and Germany you have a connection fee that includes the first hour (France) or the first so many kWhrs (Germany). So a snapshot after three minutes would show 2e for 2kWh but after one hour it would show 2e for 18kWh.
It's just a running total of kWh * unit price with Tesla.
So why didn't the person post after a longer time to show a properly astronomic bill? If you are going to shame on social media do it properly rather than showing £3 which is hard to interpret. I'd have filled the thing to the brim and then hit social media with a £50 bill to share if I were that way inclined.
Whatever way I Google it the supercharger UK tarif comes up as 28p/kWh
I’d saved myself £47 and moved on after taking the photo.
I'd have wanted solid evidence for the advertising standards authority. 🙂
I’ve just been out to my car to look up the price. That site doesn’t yet appear on the in car nav which means it’s not fully operational even if it is charging cars. I suspect a bug rather than anything else. This seems to be the consensus on the UK Tesla forum that it’s a default display when the charger is on free vend.
That makes sense rather than false advertising.
The person who actually took the photo posted it here…
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/5860887/
Then later posted to clarify the price was from a previous charge session, which lends weight to them being on free vend.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/5863340/
They’re unlikely to be any differently priced from any other Tesla Supercharger, which range between about 27p and 37p per kWh.
So we can put away our pitch forks?
Whatever way I Google it the supercharger UK tarif comes up as 28p/kWh
Ahh, interesting. Free vending seems more plausible than £1/kWh. I guess there’s no way for the car to know that there’s no charge for the uh, charge.
Supercharger rates vary across the country from 22p/kWh at Heathrow to about 37p at the busiest chargers. The only way to see the actual rates is to sit in a Tesla and look (the rates on the Tesla website are somewhat optimistic).
Having that said with Tesla you pay per DC kWh poured into the car’s battery whereas some other providers charge per AC kWh prior to rectification, so with a 10-15% loss the comparison is a little harder.
Government should buy them all out and make it 20-30p/kWh with contactless contract free payment across the board.
Be careful what you wish for. The Chargeplace Scotland network, which is the biggest charging network in the UK is owned by the Scottish local and National governments. They appointed BP Chargemaster to administrate it. Yes let's put an oil company in charge of the biggest EV charging network in the UK. What could possibly go wrong? So after Chargemaster made a predictable hash of things the admin contract was given to SWARCO this year and after a couple of months in they've done the seemingly impossible and made a bigger mess than Chargemaster so now the Chargeplace Scotland website cannot accept payment details, RFID cards are not being sent out and SWARCO have lost comms with so many chargers they've all been put on free vend. National government paid for the chargers, local government installed them and are supposed to maintain them and SWARCO does the administration so if anything goes wrong they point to each other to fix it and nothing gets done. Upside is I'm currently in Scotland and haven't paid for my last 4 rapid charges 😀
