Hasnt that always the case with all things electric involving battery and charging technology. Its extremely important to see the top end getting bigger/faster and those that use it do indeed pay extortionate amounts. But as well, the trickle down effect is what used to be top of the line (250kw) technology becomes readily available and cheaper for the masses.
Not sure if its been mentioned on here but i read yesterday that a park & charge site
As in like park and ride into town for visitors? Wrong use case/location for an uber fast-rapid charger then I'd suggest - those venues are perfect for the 11kw max most cars can charge at so 3-5 hrs (usually 22kw ac chargers).
The mega fast chargers need to be on arterial routes and more in outlying areas like west wales, cornwall devon that have seasonal peaks that create big queues if not >150kw.
Not got an EV but am toying with the idea, so doing a bit of research. One thing I hear a lot is that the public charging infrastructure isn’t there yet, making longer trips a nightmare. But I wonder whether there is really much evidence for this claim.
Yesterday I had to pick up my son just outside Aberdeen at rush hour. I had some time to kill so went to a location where there are two sets of high speed (350kw) chargers. Each location has 12 chargers but in the 30 minutes I was there no more than two were being used at any one time (so at least 20 free). Interestingly Zapmap always said that only one was in use, so that’s obviously not perfect.
Ok, Aberdeen is a bit far from civilisation, so I had a look on Zapmap just now to see what a drive to Norwich might be like. A few specific sites look busier than the others, but none seem to be full and there are loads of options for >100kw chargers on the route. Probably a different story on the Friday/Saturday before a summer holiday, but travelling then is a nightmare whatever type of car you are in.
I will be joining the EV brigade on the 25th of this month, have Ohme being installed as part of deal from car dealer. Although I have been reviewing prices and I may use the public charging network upto 50khw I am finding some good prices using various apps 25p -39p and I understand Tesla chargers are around 50p. Still cost effective compared to Petrol.
This may be useful to some:
Its a maintained map of just larger(5+) hubs, something that is hard to find on the existing apps. Avoids having to chance it on 2 chargers behind McDs.
One thing I hear a lot is that the public charging infrastructure isn’t there yet, making longer trips a nightmare. But I wonder whether there is really much evidence for this claim.
A lot of things said about EVs apply to the USA where the infrastructure is indeed absolutely shocking. Here though it's really pretty good in most places. The only place where I have to even think about it is going to North Wales on the A470, because it's a long way for my short range car and there really are very few en-route. But they're there. And I don't actually have to drive that way, I can go up the A49 which has many more chargers. And of course, I only need one charger somewhere on the way up and one on the way back because you don't have to wait til you're empty and charge to full. When I went up last time in the EV I needed a place to top up on the way out to get me back to Corwen or Oswestry area where I knew I'd be eating and charge up enough to get all the way home.
However this is a niche situation caused by being in Mid Wales. Everywhere else just drive, and stop when the car says to stop. Or when you want lunch etc.
Interestingly Zapmap always said that only one was in use, so that’s obviously not perfect.
Yeah Zap Map wasn't very accurate on our Scotland trip, the car's on-board system was spot on.
I checked through the junk mail earlier and found a Charge Place Scotland headed envelope! Inside was a shiny CPS RFID card.
Those with an Ohme charger - it looks like they've updated the app/system so intelligent octopus go is no longer a beta mode..
Not that anything will change, but they have changed the app appearance...
DrP
I was driving a plug-in hybrid on the Tour of Britain so my first foray into the world of actually charging the thing.
OK, I was very restricted in where I could go - specific hotels, a defined race route and so on, it wasn't a case of seeking a charge point and going to it. Thankfully the car ran on full petrol because it would have been completely unworkable to have a pure EV or something that "needed" a portion of charge to function.
I charged it twice (the hotels which actually had charging points, 2 out of 5) and had to download two separate apps, set up payment etc for each and work out which of the points were actually compatible.
I appreciate that it's a very specific usage - I didn't "know" the car (didn't even know what car I'd be getting until I actually picked it up at Race HQ) and I'd not prepared any advance info on charging points but I just found it all such a faff. It should not need a different app for each version of charge point, should not need the thought of "oh I can use this one but not that one".
I have a similar complaint about parking apps. I don't want a ****ing app, I want to pay some money. It's that simple. Or it bloody should be.
OK, I was very restricted in where I could go – specific hotels, a defined race route and so on, it wasn’t a case of seeking a charge point and going to it.
Doesn't sound like an ideal use for 'full EV mode' in a hybrid with a limited range.
BTW, were there petrol stations on your limited route as well?
DrP
BTW, were there petrol stations on your limited route as well?
Petrol stations, no issues, the organisation had provided fuel cards and a list of stations en route / near hotels etc, that was no problem. The car I had would do about 350 miles on a tank running in petrol mode (and there was actually a proportion of the battery that'd self charge cos it would often switch itself to EV for low speed stuff even when the main battery had no charge).
But 350 miles was fine for driving from hotel to race start, doing the race distance and then driving to the next hotel with a stop en route to fill it up.
Could never stop at a charging station on a motorway though, we didn't have the time to sit there and wait an hour for a supercharger to top it up.
Finish race, sort everything, get to next hotel.
As I say, it's quite a specific use case! It's also why the majority of team cars are still full petrol or diesel estates. And it's getting increasingly difficult to get proper estate cars as everything evolves to SUV styling.
. The fastest cars now get 250kW which is absolutely fast enough
I'd disagree. The hyundais that are getting that sort of speed still take 20 minutes to do a 5-80% charge (approx 210 miles of range being added). That still means that there will, when busy, be queues at charging points and a delay in your journey. To get to the long journey convenience of ICE (where you just don't need to think, at all, about range and filling up, just stop when it gets towards empty) you need to be getting that time down to ~5 minutes, 480kw would get it to 10 mins, which for sure is a step in the right direction, but imo faster will help massively
. The fastest cars now get 250kW which is absolutely fast enough
I’d disagree. The hyundais that are getting that sort of speed still take 20 minutes to do a 5-80% charge (approx 210 miles of range being added). That still means that there will, when busy, be queues at charging points and a delay in your journey. To get to the long journey convenience of ICE (where you just don’t need to think, at all, about range and filling up, just stop when it gets towards empty) you need to be getting that time down to ~5 minutes, 480kw would get it to 10 mins, which for sure is a step in the right direction, but imo faster will help massively
I'd disagree with you....Done 45k around UK and europe in that type of car and anything above 150-175kw charging speed is absolutely fine for the user. Most of the time you're not going to 80% on an expensive charger, just enough e's to get you home to a cheaper charge. Even if you are, sometimes that speed is too quick by the time you've been to the loo and bought a sandwich, done.
The factor that needs addressing which you've confused with personal charging speed, is adding more rapid chargers to have the capacity as the number of cars on the road increases - in the way that petrol stations have been sized for the market demand. Increasing to 450kw is not practible as there would be very few locations in the country available where the in-ground supply can provide that.
Personally I'm more than happy as long as the future has plentiful rapid chargers at 150+, that work, that aren't stupidly expensive. One change I'd make is ensuring my next car has a really good battery pre-conditioning as having slow speeds in the winter is a pain.
One thing I hear a lot is that the public charging infrastructure isn’t there yet, making longer trips a nightmare.
You just have to get your mind right.
My first trip in my EV (the day after I got it) was from Manchester to Leven - a 500 mile round trip. Started with 100%, charged at Abingdon on their new Gridserve chargers for 20 mins, went to my appointment in Leven, did the same thing in reverse. Two 20 minute rest stops in 500 miles isn't unreasonable.
48 hours later - Manchester to Sidcup - 550 miles. Same deal - top up at a loo break on the way down, top up again with a late lunch on the way back. My previous car (320d) could do the round trip on a full tank, but only just. And I would need to fill it anyway rather than just plug it in when I got home.
Currently with Octopus so imagine we will be moving to the overnight tariff – I can’t see any reason not to?
Why wouldn't you? My usage for Sept so far is 156kW that cost £11.27. Saving £26 over standard tariff according to the Ohme app.
The car was better at finding empty chargers than Zapmap, the inaccuracy of the app undermines confidence.
It should not need a different app for each version of charge point, should not need the thought of “oh I can use this one but not that one”.
It doesn't. Just get an Octopus Electroverse card which covers all the charging networks that are worth using including lots that operate destination chargers at car parks and hotels.
Ok so my work situation is becoming clearer - it’s Octopus EV 100% via salary sacrifice - choose a car and go. What’s more the car I’m looking at - an I4 or Polestar 2 seems to be cheaper than the random lease sites I looked at - about £640 pre salary sacrifice.
So now what I need to know is others experience of wiring the charger from mid-house under the stairs to my (mains powered) garage 50m away without destroying the house or garden….
A full month after I emailed chargeplecescotland about my non-functional account and their non-functional website, they eventually replied to me asking for full details of my account "due to GDPR rules".
Needless to say, I have heard nothing more from them in the fortnight since then.
So now what I need to know is others experience of wiring the charger from mid-house under the stairs to my (mains powered) garage 50m away without destroying the house or garden….
I contacted several installers and most wanted loads of images sent to them of my mains fuse, consumer unit etc and the route to where I wanted the charger sited and then quoted based on that. I went with the company that came back with the most sensible follow up questions based on what I had sent them in the end.
@Kryton57 this sounds like a job for a local electrician who can visit and discuss options with you. Underground, overground wombling free.
and a delay in your journey
But that's not much of a delay. You can deal with that.
long journey convenience of ICE (where you just don’t need to think, at all, about range and filling up, just stop when it gets towards empty)
But that's exactly what I do with my EV...
Some people really are a bit too precious.
The factor that needs addressing which you’ve confused with personal charging speed, is adding more rapid chargers to have the capacity as the number of cars on the road increases
I've probably said that 15 times on this thread 🙂 I didn't say you need 250kW, I said it's fast enough.
A full month after I emailed chargeplecescotland about my non-functional account and their non-functional website, they eventually replied to me asking for full details of my account “due to GDPR rules”.
My CPS card turned up recently. I ordered one, the £12 payment didn't seem to be taken from my bank account, I thought I'd made a mistake somewhere along the way but it turned up anyway. It arrived in a hand written envelope so it seems that CPS are doing part of the process manually.
The card will be used soon.
My other half has misplaced the octoverse card which was going to be another backup card. I thought I'd ordered one myself but it seems not to be the case. Unless one arrives in the post soon I'll be reliant on the app assuming there's a signal.
I have a chargepoint card as well which will be my 3rd choice of card on route.
Lots of chargers appear on the app and you can click 'start charge ' but it will never work because they are not app enabled. However you can call CPS and they start it remotely.
Thats got to start being game changing if the car manufacturers up their game too
The battery technology is starting to improve, with solid metal batteries starting to be introduced. That will mean full-charge ranges of between 500-700 miles. With my old diesel Skoda, a full tank gave me around 500 miles, the Insignia I had on loan gave me just under 900 miles from a single tank while I was mostly commuting to and from work over nearly a month and a half.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to be able to charge a car up once a month, and not keep needing to hunt for available charging stations if going away from the local chargers, like somewhere away from urban areas.
I’m not in the EV market, or ever really likely to be, unless something extraordinary happens to my finances, but, should the unlikely scenario happen, I wouldn’t be looking at anything with less than 500 miles/full charge; it’s bad enough now having to have a bunch of different apps in order to use a car park or parking meters, let alone doing the same to be able to charge a car, when I can just drive into any available filling station and fill my car in five minutes.
when I can just drive into any available filling station and fill my car in five minutes.
Or you can plug it in when you get home and never visit a filling station again. It happens while you sleep. For pennies.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to be able to charge a car up once a month, and not keep needing to hunt for available charging stations if going away from the local chargers, like somewhere away from urban areas.
You've said that you don't drive an EV and aren't interested in doing so, so you can be forgiven for having this point of view. But for anyone with a driveway, you just don't use it like an ICE. No-one would want to run their battery down over the course of a month and then charge it up. That's just not how it works, which is why no-one's pursuing this option. And you don't have to 'hunt' for chargers, they are all over the place. From personal experience - it's not the issue you think it is.
The major issue is charging if you don't have a driveway. But the solution to that is most emphatically not making cars with massive expensive 700 mile batteries - it's on-street charging.
Finally - what is unreasonable is driving around spewing toxic fumes everywhere you go and thinking it's fine and normal. I used to think this because that's what we've always done, but it's pretty terrible if you think about it. I still do it, for now, but I'm not buying another ICE car.
@ molgrips....my comments above were in response to 5labs asking for 450kw charging.
@countzero you sound like all the other people I know who are negative about EVs having never driven/used one/lived with one. Vast majority of drivers really really don't need 500m range. 250-300 is ample as proven by multiple trips around Europe where the ultra fast chargers (~200kw) coincided with needed toilet stops and sometimes I had to abandon the sandwich search to my family to rush back and move the now ready to go car from the charger. Being a rep doing 1500 miles a week would not be a good match but there aren't a huge number of those around these days with online home-based working.
@boomerlives has it....for 95% plus of the vast majority of peoples experience (people without drives I except are not a good match). The public charging isn't perfect by any stretch (faults/too many apps, expense) yet, but I would hazard a guess neither was the petrol filling experience for the first 10-20 yrs of its evolution.
The solution to poor charging infrastructure is most emphatically not ICEs. It's better charging infrastructure.
The more I look into the whole EV ownership thing the more I think that, if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla.
More chargers, more reliable, no apps or cards (just plug it in and walk away). They are even cheaper than many of the alternatives.
The more I look into the whole EV ownership thing the more I think that, if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla
That's the answer to most EV related questions.
if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla
I don't think this is true.
You can only plug in and walk away at a Tesla charger, and there aren't always Tesla chargers. If you drive past loads of non Tesla chargers just to avoid having to beep your debit card, you'll end up either out of your way or queueing.
Outside Scotland, all I do is stop when the car tells me to stop, plug in, *beep my debit card* and then walk away. In remote Scotland, I need another card, sure, but in most cases you'll need that with Tesla too because it's not like there are super chargers in every remote village.
Don't get me wrong, they're good cars, but like Apple the early innovation advantage they had has mostly disappeared. No matter how many times I tell people that Hyundai will plan your route with live charger information and tell you where to stop, some still seem to think this is only a Tesla feature.
If you drive past loads of non Tesla chargers just to avoid having to beep your debit card, you’ll end up either out of your way or queueing.
Why on earth would I do that? I don't have a problem using contactless (or more likely Octopus Electroverse) if there isn't a handy Supercharger but due to the extensive Supercharger network that's rarely the case. Believe me the chances of having to queue at the Supercharger are way less than with any other charging network. Also, for me as a Tesla owner, the superchcarger network is getting on for half the price of the others.
I understand that Tesla have opened up the supercharger network to non-Teslas but am I right in thinking that you can only use it if you pay a monthly subscription and you can’t just turn up in your non-Tesla and get some electrons?
I understand that Tesla have opened up the supercharger network to non-Teslas but am I right in thinking that you can only use it if you pay a monthly subscription and you can’t just turn up in your non-Tesla and get some electrons?
They have only opened up something like 42 Superchargers in the UK for public use. Lots more on the continent have been opened to the public. You just need the Tesla app to use them. If you want you can pay a monthly subscription (you can take it out for just one month to cover a road trip for example) to access the same price as Tesla drivers but even if you don't take out a subscription it will still be significantly cheaper than the other networks.
The only problem you'll have is if the vehicle's charge port is on the RHS of the car like VW. On older Superchargers the cables are only long enough to connect to cars with the chargeport on the rear LHS corner like Teslas so it means you would need to park in a bay and use the stall on the RHS which means you will take two bays out of action. Expect some hard stares from Tesla drivers if you try that at a busy Supercharger.
Personally I’m more than happy as long as the future has plentiful rapid chargers at 150+, that work, that aren’t stupidly expensive
right, which is why you (and most other people on this thread) have an EV - this thread is a bit of an echo chamber in that sense. EV uptake is growing, steadily, but is still pitifully low (under 17% of new cars), especially when you consider
1. the buy-up for new EVs has shrunk to near-zero (it is zero on the new frontera, for example)
2. EVs are way cheaper on a company car scheme
3. most people buying brand new cars are likely to have off-street parking, so home charging is less of an issue
17% is tiny, especially when you consider that most manufacturers will be charged £15,000 for every non-EV they sell if it accounts for more than 76% of their overall sales this year.
the vast majority (83% it seems) of new car buyers aren't convinced that EVs are for them. Excluding enthusiast cars that make up maybe 2% of the market, it seems highly likely the a large number of potential owners are put off by the public charging approaches being poor (as stated, day-to-day home charging is fine).
Thanks @uponthedowns So you need to pay for a subscription to use the chargers, it just might be cheaper to do so if you use them a lot. Sounds fair enough.
Two things you often hear are: “we need lots more rapid chargers” and “we need cars with 500 mile range”. But these statements are in conflict. If you were a business would you really invest millions of pounds installing lots of rapid chargers if you thought people were going to be driving cars with a 500 mile range that they charge almost exclusively at home?
The solution to poor charging infrastructure is most emphatically not ICEs. It’s better charging infrastructure.
How are you going to solve that for folk like me? I live in a flat. there is very limited on street parking - room for maybe a dozen cars for around 60 flats in the block. Parking in general in the area is very limited ( and charged for / residents permit only)and the local chargers ( 6 of) are limited to 4 hours use only?
In many parts of the country owning your own electric car simply is not practical and its very hard to see how it could be
the car club model could and does work. But personal ownership? Nope
So you need to pay for a subscription to use the chargers, it just might be cheaper to do so if you use them a lot. Sounds fair enough.
No you don't need a subscription to use the Superchargers. You just need the Tesla app. Set up a payment method on it then hit the pizza box menu and pick "Charge your other EV" and it will show you all the public Superchargers available to non-Teslas. You only need a subscription if you want the same price as Tesla drivers get. Also Superchargers have variable tarrifs based on how busy the Supercharger is and what time of day it is. In the last year my Supercharging sessions have ranged from 33p per kWh to 55p per kWh. Busy Superchargers also charge overstay fees if you stay connected past 100% charge which IMHO every network should implement.
How are you going to solve that for folk like me?
Can you fill up with fuel at your flat ? Nope, so you stop somewhere to do that when you need to. Same thing with electric cars but maybe the chargers are at a place where you're going to spend 20-30 mins, maybe they're en route.
How practical do you think that would be? EVs can work if you can charge at home. When you cannot then its impractical
How are you going to solve that for folk like me?
It's actually fairly simple but requires government level commitment to making this work.
As a starting point - clearly when you're not driving your car, it is by default parked somewhere. And that somewhere is unlikely to be somewhere that could not have a charging post installed.
What's needed then is an expansion of publicly accessible relatively low power (7kW max) chargers to cover a significant percentage of places that people park cars - public carparks, workplaces, kerbside (couple of sockets per lamp-post where they exist, addition of smaller charging posts where not) - it's all just off the standard 240V supply so the electrical infrastructure is largely there.
Note that not EVERY parking space needs these, as you don't need to charge all the time*.
These then need to be charged at a suitably affordable rate - i.e. means the govt need to be involved in this rather than leaving it to the open market.
* Assume 12,000 miles per year. Assume 3.5 mile/kW.Hr. Assume 7kW charge rate.
That's 33 miles per day, so 9.4 kW.hr per day, i.e. you need to charge for less than 1.5 hours a day on average.
Sorry @uponthedowns I meant to type “so you don’t need to pay for a subscription” but the don’t got lost somewhere ? Thanks for clarifying though.
Point missed
If you have no dedicated parking then you have to find a random spot. If its an EV then you have to find a random unoccupied EV charging point. The number of EV charging points needed would be huge. Far better for locations like mine is the car club model
Rubbish.
Do you ever go shopping? Do it then.
Buy a coffee? Sit in and charge it.
Fast food? Pick one with a charger. Go on a trip? Fill on the way there or back.
If you don't want one, that's perfectly fine but to say it just won't work is patently cobblers.
Far better for locations like mine is the car club model
That's true for many urban situations regardless of whether the car is an EV or ICE.
Although if I was part of an EV car club I'd want there to be "sufficient" charge in the car when I picked it up, so that'd probably end up with most people needing to charge it when they used it. But, as above, they can probably do that when they're stopped somewhere for another reason. (Same expectation of an ICE too, so someone would to stop somewhere to fill it up rather than have the refuelling happen while they're doing something else)
