[Closed] The ban on laptops in cabin baggage.

What happens to people coming from Dubai who travel with cabin baggage only and want to bring their laptop? How many laptops will be stolen from passengers' cases in transit?

1) They will either follow the rules or not travel.
2) Hopefully loads, then the airlines will kick up a fuss and get it cancelled.

I wouldn't travel without encrypting the hard disk (with something like Checkpoint) and leaving the thing fully switched off prior to checking in.

What happens to people coming from Dubai who travel with cabin baggage only and want to bring their laptop?

They'll get put in the hold.

How many laptops will be stolen from passengers' cases in transit?

How many bags get robbed at the moment? Are all Middle eastern baggage handlers thieves? I'd missed that somewhere...

This is just the beginning. I heard that as from tomorrow they're not taking any risks at all, and they're going to confiscate everyone's laptop, pile them all up on an area of tarmac by the side of the runway, then detonate them all in a controlled explosion

Ban only related to certain size laptops and devices - small, thin tablets and smart phones are excluded, so get yourself some stronger glasses...

How many bags get robbed at the moment? Are all Middle eastern baggage handlers thieves? I'd missed that somewhere...

Doesn't have to be the middle east end of the journey!

https://www.rt.com/usa/tsa-stealing-from-travelers-358/

pile them all up on an area of tarmac by the side of the runway, then detonate them all in a controlled explosion

That's no worse than your typical french baggage handlers.

rats I thought my Psion series 5 might finally be worth something again but its 10mm too big

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/but-this-is-a-macbook-says-air-passenger-20170322124694 ]Here's your answer[/url]

😆

Are all [s]Middle eastern [/s]baggage handlers thieves? [s]I'd missed that somewhere...[/s] Yes they probably are given the response on the gate when I was asked to put my cabin bag in the hold. "Will you cover the equipment if it goes missing between unloading and deliver to reclaim at Stansted?"
"You had better carry the electronics on with you and the empty bag can go in the hold"

It's not a race thing it's a baggage handler thing.

Laptops are over-rated.
Can't go wrong with a good old fashioned notebook.

Although a finely sharpened HB pencil may not make it through security either.

I often put my laptop in the hold. Long haul at weekends, for example. I'd rather have a drink and watch a film than work, so remove any temptation!

Never had anything stolen from my baggage in years of regular flying globally.

[quote=globalti ]It's going to be a ballache; my colleague visits most of the affected countries three or four times a year. What happens to people coming from Dubai who travel with cabin baggage only and want to bring their laptop? How many laptops will be stolen from passengers' cases in transit?

I'm guessing the risk of serious injury or death to an aircraft full of people outweighs the annoyance of a few overpaid salesmen on expenses-paid jollies?

Flashy on his way to the international paperclip convention in Syria earlier this week, with ne'er a laptop in sight....

Never had anything stolen from my baggage in years of regular flying globally.

I have, flying from Hurghada to Cairo.

Never on an international flight though.

Was Hong Kong last week, Binners.
[img] [/img]

No Cinzano.

A good year...?

[img] [/img]

😀

It's Bucky. Only the best in business class!

🙂

Don't some airlines (I'm pretty sure Singapore did when I flew with them last year) have rules in place that mean laptops must go in the cabin, due to the fire risk from the lithium batteries?

Or did I just misread the signs!

Don't some airlines (I'm pretty sure Singapore did when I flew with them last year) have rules in place that mean laptops must go in the cabin, due to the fire risk from the lithium batteries?

Ban only related to certain size laptops and devices - small, thin tablets and smart phones are excluded

When you look at the published dimensions they seem to be set to be just a few mm smaller than a mini-iPad, so in reality all tablets from mini-iPad and larger will have to go in the hold. I doubt any laptops come in smaller than a mini-iPad.

Yes, will be a ballache.

Only spare batteries, certainly the policy on Cathay.

I wouldn't travel without encrypting the hard disk (with something like Checkpoint) and leaving the thing fully switched off prior to checking in.

As an airline pilot I've long considered laptops to be a security hazard for reasons I don't want to specify here. I think it's great this is finally happening. They should be banned from holds too, however.
It will cause hassle positioning between flights as I'll now have to put a bag in the hold for my iPad (needed for all my flying duties) I'm a carry-on guy normally.
I guess sales of iPod touches will go up again-they're scaled down iPads basically.

I travel with my work laptop.

It can go in the hold if it wants.

So long as they have no issues with me keeping my HDD in my bag.

Very little lives on my works laptop as they are so damn unreliable haha

Always thought it was a bit odd that they allow large electronic devices with huge opaque "batteries". Especially since actual legitimate batteries seem to pose a potential hazard.

But I'm a bit confused how putting it in the hold has a significant impact on the security risk? Presumably it goes through additional checks?

putting it in the hold means it cannot be activated by someone. also a device the size of a laptop or laptop battery is likely to do far less damage when surrounded by dense baggage and not harming any passengers. Of course we don't know the exact nature of the threat (or maybe we do but i've not read anything specific) so I can only guess that potentially a bomb the size of the battery can be substituted for the battery.

The safety of laptop batteries has clearly been proved given the number of laptops that have been flown around over the past 20 years or so with no problems.

putting it in the hold means it cannot be activated by someone.

Wireless comms? Timers? Bespoke electronics hidden in the same place as they hide the payload?

The safety of laptop batteries has clearly been proved given the number of laptops that have been flown around over the past 20 years

Mmmm... 20 years ago the batteries were Ni-Cd or Ni-MH and had a much much lower energy density.

[img] [/img]

These days the high energy density of a modern Lithium based battery is a lot high. Here's an informative video showing an 8,000mAh battery being hit by a crazy Russian dude with a stick:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/03/21/trump-wont-allow-you-to-use-ipads-or-laptops-on-certain-airlines-heres-the-underlying-story/ is a very interesting alternative take, and to be honest more believable.

Well Lithium batteries are considered safe enough to be used extensively throughout the latest gen aircraft systems. In fact the 787 was grounded early on after a few overheated and caught fire, but that has been fixed now and thousands of Lithium batteries are happily flying around right now within aircraft.

It seems a bit of a crap measure though to protect against the threat of a bomb hidden in a laptop. If you were really serious you'd take a flight from the ME to, say Singapore, with the laptop in the hold. Then retrieve your laptop in Singapore and take a flight from Singapore to wherever and carry out your attack then.

[s][/s] If you were really serious you'd take a flight from the ME to, say Singapore, with the laptop in the hold. Then retrieve your laptop in Singapore and take a flight from Singapore to wherever and carry out your attack then.

SIN has excellent controls throughout, then at gate security and holding pens before boarding. Would be a very foolish fool who tried that avenue!

On the surface Singapore and Abu Dhabi run the same method of screen into the terminal then screen into the holding gate. It's not that common for me but I do use my laptop on long haul transits. It also means making sure its well packed in the hold bag and losing some weight allowance.

Don't some airlines (I'm pretty sure Singapore did when I flew with them last year) have rules in place that mean laptops must go in the cabin, due to the fire risk from the lithium batteries?

I regularly travel with li-ion batteries for battery powered portable flash (elinchrom rangers not little flash guns) and have all the paperwork, airworthiness certificate, taped up terminals, fuse removed etc and a couple of times been asked to put them in the hold and flatly refused at that contravenes AIATA rules. The desk staff usually change their mind when i tell them.

What I don't understand is how come stuff can go missing by light fingered baggage handlers when this means they can probably bring stuff in (i.e. A bomb)? Surely they are security checked on entering and leaving work?

Theres also the question of an insurance pay out if your lap top goes missing in the hold luggage, most insurance companies want pay out according to radio 4 today and assosiation of british insurers.

What I don't understand is how come stuff can go missing by light fingered baggage handlers when this means they can probably bring stuff in (i.e. A bomb)? Surely they are security checked on entering and leaving work?

Why do you assume the out check is the same as the in check? As you say check for dangeroythings going in, what are you checking for on the way out.

Stolen laptops, specifically. lol!

Too soon?

So why do you assume that airports care about stolen goods? Regulatory security doesn't apply so why do it.

As an airline pilot I've long considered laptops to be a security hazard for reasons I don't want to specify here. I think it's great this is finally happening. They should be banned from holds too, however.
It will cause hassle positioning between flights as I'll now have to put a bag in the hold for my iPad (needed for all my flying duties) I'm a carry-on guy normally.
I guess sales of iPod touches will go up again-they're scaled down iPads basically.

If this has something to do with systems security, then Boeing and Airbus should be fixing that - not encouraging the banning of laptops on flights.

Besides, you can run all sorts of code and physical links from a phone anyway.

Are the holds on planes bombproof or something?

Surely if a bomb goes off during the flight, you're screwed either way?

Are the holds on planes bombproof or something?

Surely if a bomb goes off during the flight, you're screwed either way?

That's an interesting theory, but with modern technology, a bomb the size of a laptop could have a significant blast~ then of course there's ample possibility that the bag with the laptop in could be against the fuselage in the hold.

Before todays tragic incidents, the BBC news bulletins were mentioning that the Shadow Justice secretary, Richard Burgon, had made a similar point.

At one point they were asking you to turn it on to prove it was a real device and not a bomb. They can't do that if it's in the hold, can they?

The real reason for this appears to be nothing to do with terrorism but an attempt to force business folk to stop using middle eastern airlines.

It may not be about security. Three of the airlines that have been targeted for these measures — Emirates, Etihad Airways and Qatar Airways — have long been accused by their U.S. competitors of receiving massive effective subsidies from their governments. These airlines have been quietly worried for months that President Trump was going to retaliate. This may be the retaliation.

These three airlines, as well as the other airlines targeted in the order, are likely to lose a major amount of business from their most lucrative customers

The irony being, I suppose, that I could buy a replacement laptop on each journey with the money I save using any of the UAE airlines compared to BA, or any of the large American carriers.

I suppose the solution I would go with would be to take a secure OS only laptop in the hold, and an operating encrypted drive in carry on. If the laptop is lost then no data is lost with it.

Still wouldn't offer an option to those who work during the flight though.

I had a video camera stolen from my checked baggage on a flight from Birmingham via Dubai to The Maldives.
This was a few years ago but I got a missing item report from Emirates Airlines and my home insurance covered it as I had specific cover for electronic items in transit.

The irony being, I suppose, that I could buy a replacement laptop on each journey with the money I save using any of the UAE airlines compared to BA, or any of the large American carriers.

The real reason for this appears to be nothing to do with terrorism but an attempt to force business folk to stop using middle eastern airlines.

That article states:

[i]"non-U. S. observers are skeptical of this explanation"[/i]

But the UK also implemented the same ban hours after the Americans. This is because there is complete intelligence sharing between the US and UK (and also Canada, Australia and New Zealand as part of the Five Eyes agreement) so it's reasonable to assume that whatever intelligence it is based on has been shared and acted upon my our secrurity services.

That article states:

"non-U. S. observers are skeptical of this explanation"

I think they'll find that we're [i]sceptical[/i].

geetee - or is it just a case of us being washingtons poodle again and wanting to make it seem like we are doing everything possible?

Plenty of previous for this from having to take your shoes off to the ridiculous restrictions on liquids to the pointless waste of time of extra passport checks to armed policeman and tanks outside of airports. NOne of these things actually make flying any safer as none of them address real issues but are all concerned with making us both scared and feel more secure at the same time

One clue will be if other countries follow. I bet no one else does

[quote=GrahamS ]

The safety of laptop batteries has clearly been proved given the number of laptops that have been flown around over the past 20 years

I'm not quite sure of the exact timescale of LiIon batteries being used in laptops, but it's not actually far off 20 years. It's almost 15 years ago I first started using LiIon cells from laptop batteries to make custom bike light packs. So I think in general the point stands.

I think they'll find that we're sceptical.

It was a piece in the Washington Post so the spelling is correct.

geetee - or is it just a case of us being washingtons poodle again and wanting to make it seem like we are doing everything possible?

What does that statement actually mean; do you mean in the way that has been suggested that Russia influenced the US election? How exactly does sharing intelligence compromise our sovereignty?

NOne of these things actually make flying any safer as none of them address real issues

Are you also an expert of flight safety?

mikewsmith, in my experience we can always get cheaper business tickets through the UAE hub airports to south east Asia and then use the regional airways for shorter flights, Malaysian, Garuda, Thai etc. when in the region.

It always requires shopping between the big 3 Etihad, Emirates, and Qatar, but one of them is always significantly cheaper than the others. I would prefer to fly everywhere through Singapore because the airport is a nice place to be but they are usually more expensive for our destinations.

TJ - Additional security increases over the years have been hit and miss in effectiveness in my opinion. I fail to see how having my passport checked on check-in, then again through security, then again at the gate could improve the situation. It's pretty certain that if my passport was acceptable at security it wouldn't have changed by the gate surely?

Armed policemen clearly do make a difference. Liquid restrictions are understandable. And I never minded having to open and switch on my laptop when asked. And removing shoes isn't exactly time consuming if you're prepared for it when you get to security. Most delays are caused by people not being prepared for what is now a routine procedure.

Liquid restrictions make no sense at all. Liquid bombs are a myth and why do you hve to take your shoes of if its walking boots but not if you have wedges which could equally have a completely ineffective bomb in them

Geetee I can read and I can make my own mind up on the evidence and none of these things are evidence based

Plenty of previous for this from having to take your shoes off to the ridiculous restrictions on liquids to the pointless waste of time of extra passport checks to armed policeman and tanks outside of airports. NOne of these things actually make flying any safer as none of them address real issues but are all concerned with making us both scared and feel more secure at the same time

I was in Europe last summer and there were tanks outside rail stations, so it's hardly a 'special relationship' thing.

It's pretty certain that if my passport was acceptable at security it wouldn't have changed by the gate surely?

Unless you swap places with someone on a flight to somewhere with different security requirements once past security?

oldnpastit - do international terminals have variable levels of security? I only ever see one level.

TJ - unfortunately with the shoe check it seems variable according to the security staff on duty. But as mentioned before, preparing whilst in the queue means that the delay caused is pretty much negligible.

Don't some airlines (I'm pretty sure Singapore did when I flew with them last year) have rules in place that mean laptops must go in the cabin, due to the fire risk from the lithium batteries?

Different rules for installed and loose batteries. Some airlines choose to apply the tightest rule to all (hand carry only) but it isn't required. Many airlines distinguish between spare batteries and installed batteries. You can ship installed lithium batteries with no special marking or precautions.

Liquid bombs are a myth

(el reg was initially very sceptical, but evidence caused them to change their mind)

Are you also an expert of flight safety?

@Tom_w

"If this has something to do with systems security, then Boeing and Airbus should be fixing that - not encouraging the banning of laptops on flights."

...Nothing to do with that.
Hopefully banned from holds too ASAP.

oldnpastit - do international terminals have variable levels of security? I only ever see one level.

Butting in, yes they do.

A few airports I've been to have double screening (main line & at gate).

PITA if you forget and cut it fine...

The theory about Trump protecting US airlines is a good one; I like a conspiracy theory - have emailed it to my bro in the USA. But hang on - will the ban apply to an Arab flying from the Middle East to Europe or the USA on a European or American airline? Do any American airlines actually fly to the Middle east?

Nothing to do with that.
Hopefully banned from holds too ASAP.

That would be a great idea, them companies might work out that lots of business travel is basically unnecessary and use the array of collaborative working tools they have invested in. Brilliant for the planet and safer too! Not saying all business travel is unnecessary just a decent %

Nothing to do with that.
Hopefully banned from holds too ASAP.

That would be a great idea, them companies might work out that lots of business travel is basically unnecessary and use the array of collaborative working tools they have invested in. Brilliant for the planet and safer too! Not saying all business travel is unnecessary just a decent %

That's not great for those of us who take laptops or tablets on holiday though. Maybe there'll be a resurgence on internet cafes in response <shudders>

jimdubleyou - Actually now you mention it I may have experienced that double screening before as well... obviously didn't understand what it was about!

I think the weirdest thing was getting on a flight in south east asia getting settled in my seat, having the guy in front get up and walk off the plane and board the one next to us. He'd walked to the wrong plane and not realised until they announced the destination over the tannoy! That is some interesting security.

Butting in, yes they do.

A few airports I've been to have double screening (main line & at gate).

That would be a great idea, them companies might work out that lots of business travel is basically unnecessary and use the array of collaborative working tools they have invested in. Brilliant for the planet and safer too! Not saying all business travel is unnecessary just a decent %

Some is and some isn't. Problem for me would be having to make sure my laptop was fully waterproof in case it was sat on the tarmac for a while in a rain storm (happens a lot) and that it is there when I get to a meeting, although I manage to work across many places without being there, when you do you do. Giving my laptop up for a day at a time costs me time and money and screws with our economy.

This will be a completely pointless ban unless they search cabin bags as people get on the flight, or make it universal. What is to stop somebody from another flight handing over a laptop whilst mingling in Boots, airside ??

P.S and if anybody is responsible for this conspiracy, it is WH Smith

hels - Member
This will be a completely pointless ban unless they search cabin bags as people get on the flight, or make it universal. What is to stop somebody from another flight handing over a laptop whilst mingling in Boots, airside ??

Are you also an expert of flight safety?

No but I imagine Philip Baum, managing director of aviation security consultancy Green Light and editor of Aviation Security International, is.

And he has been in the news saying pretty much the same thing: if there is a threat then they shouldn't be on the plane at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/electronics-ban-will-harm-international-trade-mean-more-unruly-passengers/

Laptop cabin ban 'ineffective' says IATA

In a strongly-worded speech, IATA chief executive Alexandre de Juniac said the ban also creates "commercial distortions".

"Why don't the US and the UK have a common list of airports? How can laptops be secure in the cabin on some flights and not others... especially on flights originating at a common airport?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39425532

I've just flown in from Istanbul on Turkish. They had FOUR staff at the gate taking laptops and tablets from passengers and issuing receipts, same as when they take your cabin baggage off you at the plane. They all looked pretty stressed and hacked off about it.

At Manchester somebody appeared from behind the wall in the baggage hall with two very big suitcases full of laptops all wrapped in bubble wrap envelopes. The process was reversed except that it took frustratingly long as the two staff had to find your name on the list, find each laptop from about 50 then get your signature. They also looked stressed and hacked off.

The cost of staff and bubble envelopes is really going to annoy the affected airlines.

I wonder why TK can't issue your laptop receipt when you check in, same as for your baggage? You could then present that with the laptop at the departure gate.

I wonder why TK can't issue your laptop receipt when you check in, same as for your baggage? You could then present that with the laptop at the departure gate.