MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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If I wanted an accurate rifle for that caliber, I’d go bolt action with a longer barrel. If I wanted a vermin rifle, I’d go .243 or .308.
a farmer i knew in Alberta used 223 for coyotes. a 308 would blow a dog to bits. it’s the kind of round you’d use on a moose.
i used to enjoy telling him that if you want to control coyote population and stop the killing livestock is to feed them. it’s true, but he didn’t believe me.
and for home defence a semi-auto shotgun is recommended. it would ruin your walls, though.
the thing about the USA is, if someone is going to burgle your house, mug you, carjack you or anything else, they will be armed. some people feel safer also carrying a gun. it is not a good situation, but one that is very difficult to comprehend from a UK perspective.
Its a bit old but makes very interesting reading
Here's a website that shows rolling coverage of gun violence in Chicago - year to date 267 gun murders & so far in June 17 people shot & killed
Its a bit old but makes very interesting reading
They want to help the apex predator live longer and multiply more?
I think what I find so depressing about it is the words spoken by that judge. That attitude leads directly to the sad and shocking statistics in those articles.
As the old saying goes……there are none so blind as those that will not see…
eddd
Full MemberI think hamdguns are more worrying than AR-15s. To think how many may be swinging around in purses or pockets with a round in the chamber, pointing anywhere. Then if they do get used, those rounds land all over the place – it’s easy to shoot a rifle accurately, not a pistol.
If for self defence, ranges are small by definition, spaces are often small. Ease of use is really important (automatic fire will be basically a way to miss loads). But basically the only really relevant accuracy factor will be the person using it- their skill level and state of mind.
molgrips
Full Member
Ammo control is a goid idea. Only get 2 burglary attempts a year? Then you only need 10 rounds.
If you're going to be any good at it, you need to shoot it a bunch. If you ever have to use it after being wakened up in the middle of the night, most likely either shitting your pants or jacked up on adrenaline, it needs to be absolutely ingrained- not just aiming but every bit of handling. Limits on ammo in the home make tons of sense but not limits on ammo full stop.
This is one of the odd things about "responsible gun ownership", most people who say they want a gun for self defence spend very little time drilling, they often won't get any training at all. Going to the range isn't about shooting bullseyes, it's mostly just about getting competent. But there's a big mental break between "I must be allowed a gun to defend myself" and "I will do the hard work so that I can use it effectively" and people end up introducing all of the dangers into their house without necessarily gaining much or any safety. Which is how you get that woman who shot her own child while trying to shoot a puppy the other day, that kid statistically will be shot once in their life and it was by their mum. But any talk about training or competence-based licencing is always instantly screamed down. Only 7 states mandate even basic safety training.
One of the best pieces of wisdom I have been given is that, in really stressful situations, people rarely rise to the occasion. They fall back to their level of training. If you have very little training, you will not function well.
It’s why I coached so much on the range, practiced so much when I had the time and then took every opportunity to get people to understand why it was important. Mind you, back then we were going to AFG so people were a little more focussed on learning.
Devils advocate.
Guns are fun, Guns are cool. 90s Action movies prove it.
We have loads of guns here in the UK. it isn't hard to get a license, and surely the difference in potential damage done with a semi automatic 12 gauge is negligible to that done with an AR15.
Thankfully we dont get people wandering into classrooms and shooting them up. There is nothing at all stopping people doing it!
The problem (as i see it) is the American fetishisation of them. The "having one because its my right" thing, and the severely lacking attitude to "elf and safety". Toddler killing themselves or their parents have invariably found a loaded gun lying around on a coffee table, Yet we keep bleach locked away under the sink. Madness.
I almost agree that "bad guys will still get them illegally", and that wont change till there are a whole lot fewer guns floating around.
Before Dunblane i knew a fair few gun owners,I can tell you they were all f** m**.
Cool story. I grew up with teachers and associated staff who were gun owners. In Dunblane, post shooting. They were some of the best people I knew.
Conversely I know plenty of cyclists who are judgemental *****.
One of the best pieces of wisdom I have been given is that, in really stressful situations, people rarely rise to the occasion. They fall back to their level of training. If you have very little training, you will not function well.
Yep, the exact (and truthful) opposite to the idea that the only way to take down a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns who will all miraculously rise to the occasion, identify the bad guy shooter in a crowded mall with terrified punters running for cover, draw their own weapon, challenge and fire (accurately).
Have you ever tried to get a firearms license? I haven’t, but have considered it in the past. My perception is that it isn’t all that easy but maybe I’m wrong..
We have loads of guns here in the UK. it isn’t hard to get a license, and surely the difference in potential damage done with a semi automatic 12 gauge is negligible to that done with an AR15.
Thankfully we dont get people wandering into classrooms and shooting them up. There is nothing at all stopping people doing it!
I'm guessing you haven't tried to get a gun license, get a weapon designed for mass slaughter, or tried to get into a school recently
difference in potential damage done with a semi automatic 12 gauge is negligible to that done with an AR15
Limit is 3 cartridges in a semi-auto 12 gauge - compared with a 20 or 30 round AR15 magazine. More time to run or hide if someone is rampaging through a school, fewer shots before the police arrive.
Limit is 3 cartridges in a semi-auto 12 gauge
It can be higher but you need a FAC licence as opposed to just a shotgun licence.
If you get an AR platform with a 20-30 round mag, you'll have the requisite licence to get a semi-auto shotgun with >3 round capacity.
And the bar for a FAC is a level above that required for an SGC.
I have had both in the past, giving them back only because I emigrated. Whilst an SGC only really requires you to appear sensible and pass a background check (and have a good reason to own a shotgun), the FAC requires you to have a good reason and has a significant number of strings attached, for example, dedicated land to shoot on that is assessed, or be a member of a club that has the clearance to shoot the weapon you wish to have.
It's also really difficult to gain a large number of weapons. Again, shotguns just require you to take care of them, which could mean storing them in pieces around the house, an FAC requires you to have secure storage of both weapons and ammunition and the storage must be approved and sufficient for the number of weapons you own. That should help limit people buying many many when they have space for only 3 in their cabinet.
You can lose your licenses very easily too and the punishments are punitive. FAC holders tend to be very careful about what they do in life, otherwise they don't tend to stay license holders for long.
Agreed on that - FAC holders that I know tend to be very level headed. Apart from anything else they know that if they do something stupid it could screw things up for others…
https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics/
Businesses like Aftermath, a hoe cleanup crew, wouldn't exist without kids finding their unlocked parents' firearms.
This is pretty much my feelings on civilian ownership. Think of the kids!
The problem (as i see it) is the American fetishisation of them.
It's not that - it's how they think about violence and what it means.
If you’re going to be any good at it, you need to shoot it a bunch.
That's fine - you buy ammo at the range, and get searched on the way out or a machine counts what you shoot and compares it to what you bought so you can't sneak it home.
Here’s a website that shows rolling coverage of gun violence in Chicago – year to date 267 gun murders & so far in June 17 people shot & killed
Wow, that's really shocking. Chicago has a population of around 2.7 million, so only about 400,000 more than Birmingham. I don't know what the statistics for deaths resulting from shootings are in Birmingham, but I'm willing to guess the numbers are somewhat lower than Chicago. Which right now, for June alone, stands at 2 per day. That is truly disturbing.
I think the thing that really brought me up short on that website was the race distribution of victims - just mental….
No good trying to limit the ammo they can buy. Since the pandemic and the election they’ve been buying all the ammo they can get their hands on because “democrats”. It’s affecting the availability of ammo and reloading components over here too. It’s proving very difficult getting hold of any of the main American imports like Hornady.
A propos high capacity shotguns (>3 shot) they are pretty hard to get hold of in the UK. The majority of licensing authorities will only grant authority to professionals. Yer average Joe or Joanne will struggle to give “good reason” to possess one.
Yer average Joe or Joanne will struggle to give “good reason” to possess one.
A mate of mines next door neighbour was given a license for a 44 magnum a couple of years ago, reason given was his hunting rifle was too cumbersome to dispatch a deer at close range (after it had been first shot with said rifle). As far as I know he's still trying to find a way of getting his hands on the magnum and I'm pretty sure whoever gave him the license knew fine well he'd have just as much luck finding hens teeth in the UK these days. Most people he went shooting with apparently couldn't believe he got the license
It's not so much about it being cumbersome as opposed to the problem of over penetration - if you're up close you only want the bullet to go as far as you need it to. There are other options and opinions but that's how and why one would be granted. It'll only be a 2 shot as well.
It’ll only be a 2 shot as well.
I thought because of over penetration you need more than 2 shots? 3 to 5 shots before registering stoppage?
Over penetration is not a shot number thing, it’s a combination of things, but basically the round moving fast enough and staying together enough to go through the intended target and carry on through other things.
A really good example of this is ball, high velocity ammunition going through a body, then through a thin wall and then into other bodies. Ball ammunition is cheap and usually available in quantity, so is used a lot in the US.
If you want to avoid that, you use either a slower round (which has less energy and stops quicker*) or a round designed to expand or fragment, like V-max/A-max or hollow points. The trouble with these are that they are classed in the U.K. as expanding and require the purchaser to have special licensing or a reason to own, t.ex vermin and .22lr Subsonic hollow points.
I have no idea of the US requirements, but the shelf rounds with these bullets are not cheap and are designed for hunting, so are likely not what the average 2A nut will put in the AR mags. Here may even be issues with feeding these as the action is designed for ball rounds (coming from the M16 as it does).
have no idea of the US requirements, but the shelf rounds with these bullets are not cheap and are designed for hunting, so are likely not what the average 2A nut will put in the AR mags.
They removed the necessity for UK license holders to request specific authority for expanding ammo a year or so ago. It’s specifically required for deer and best practice for vermin, and simply incorporated unnecessary hurdles in the application process
A year or so ago Hornady introduced the Z-Max round to the US market to complement their A-Max (target) and V-Max ( varmint) rounds. The Z stood for Zombie. It was basically the same as the V-Max, and was either pretty clever marketing or tongue in cheek. Either way the good ol’ boys lapped it up and it sold out in record time.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1165144387
I’m guessing you haven’t tried to get a gun license, get a weapon designed for mass slaughter, or tried to get into a school recently
My sister her husband and all his family hold both shotgun and rifle licenses, for "sport" shooting, she's got quite the armoury in her house. as long so you can justify it and they don't have a reason to refuse you a license you can get one. and I go into school everyday dropping my kid off.
3 cartridges in a semi-auto 12 gauge – compared with a 20 or 30 round AR15 magazine
It is, but if you're letting 3 12 gauge shots off in a crowded place,the difference is academic. It's a lot of hurt people.
I’m guessing you haven’t tried to get a gun license
Just follow the rules, join a gun club so you have somewhere to shoot, or get a landowners permission etc. If you apply just beacause you want a gun you will be declined.
A mate of mines next door neighbour was given a license for a 44 magnum a couple of years ago, reason given was his hunting rifle was too cumbersome to dispatch a deer at close range (after it had been first shot with said rifle). As far as I know he’s still trying to find a way of getting his hands on the magnum and I’m pretty sure whoever gave him the license knew fine well he’d have just as much luck finding hens teeth in the UK these days
You can buy a .44 magnum revolver for about £500 in the UK (assuming you have it on your firearms certificate, which will require "good reason", eg regular humane dispatch)