[Closed] Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time -- New Rules

So basically holidays & money are more important than education. Erm ok...... 🙄

It's all ways puzzled me how it's ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it's not ok for a child to go with there family?
I've always took my daughter for week out in jan/feb and the head was fine about it, but she is now in high school and I try and go just after new year. Fly on the 1st at 7am next year!
I sort of agree if its to sit in a tacky bar in benidorm for a fortnight tho!

Hmm indeed. First world issue of OP selfish enough to compromise kids education to get their perspective of a decent holiday.

Precisely. It seems to be more about where the parents want to go than what would suit the kids. Now, I admit I would rather go skiing in the Alps than camping in Cornwall, but that's one of the compromises you sign up for when you decide to start a family.

It's all ways puzzled me how it's ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it's not ok for a child to go with there family?

To be honest it isn't and I'm surprised there are many schools doing this any more - it's been frowned upon for about 20 years +. Field trips, especially whole year ones, are fine in term time but anything that even vaguely smells of school organised holiday for select groups, no.

As a parent my life has changed massively - massively for the better. I'm not looking for "life changing" holidays - in fact it's not about 'my' holiday at all. By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn't have otherwise during their formative years.

Schools and education are not synonymous. The problem is that some teachers* and many parents think it is. Education is also not about targets. Setting highly arbitrary quantative targets is an incredibly poor way to try and assess performance. When you focus teachers on demonstrating their effectiveness against these targets you end up with a very narrow definition of 'good' and a system which begins to have a distorted view of what matters. We now have a large proportion of teaching professionals who have only known this system and have only achieved professional 'success' through it.

I am not on my own thinking this causes problems, many of the people we socialise with* see this is an issue. It is this restrictive focus which caused some of the problems in a different type of institution - Stafford hospital. It becomes a problem wherever it is applied. In the NHS for example there are shorter waiting lists which is great, but also a far more concerns over lack of dignity and compassion in care...

I also would contend that trying to change behaviours by mandate (whether legislation or regulation ) is a poor way to change behaviours. Those who won't change - still don't change but become more marginalised. Making real change involves changing culture.

So my points would be this: -

1. There is no real need to further restrict the ability of parents to take children out of school for holidays during term time
2. A draconian approach to this is misguided and unnecessary
3. I don't appreciate or need to be talked down too by anyone - simply because they help educate my child
4. Treating all parents and all types of absence in the same way is patently ridiculous
5. I still intend to take my children out of school
6. Education and schooling do not have an exclusive relationship
7. If I could educate my children at home full time without penalty - why should I be penalised for doing so for two weeks a year...?

*Both my wife and I have several primary and secondary teachers as friends - including two head teachers and two deputy head teachers. My perceptions are not limited to being a parent or a pupil.

Several examples of 'educational' jollies in my area recently - boys' school runs a regular ski trip.

Not that I'm against it. Kids learn life skills in a variety of ways, not just in the classroom, in this case how to execute perfect parallel turns and chat up chalet girls.

By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn't have otherwise during their formative years.

So you're saying that they'll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.

Yep the posher your holiday the better it is for the kids and all the more reason for taking them out of school. Do you want to do a list of suitable upper middle class destinations that you can take kids out for

We don't have 'posh' holidays. We are also not 'upper middle class'. Eurocamp is safely not a posh option. I was only illustrating that we use holidays as a tool for education as well as relaxation.

What is interesting regarding the whole class thing is that due to their longer holidays - that some private and public schools have, most of the people in the party sponsoring this change to legislation could take their children of the state school term time without fear of penalty...

ransos - Member
So you're saying that they'll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example...

One measure for working out what is acceptable is to ask what would happen if everyone did the same. School can be a great social leveller, but also shows some people think they are more important than others.

Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else. I think everyone should be able to do as I suggest.

Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example...

So they're losing out if they don't go to Italy?

A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?

ransos - Member
So they're losing out if they don't go to Italy?

Gove the op a break, maybe they don't eat pizza at home.

A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?

Only if they're going to Italy...

Jumped the the end of this thread to add my views so may have missed a bit.

Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.

This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can't this be done outside of term time? It's not like teachers don't get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year! The average worker in the UK gets 4-5 weeks off a year so why should we have to use our holiday time off purely because the schools don't want to cut down their holiday time?

It can work both ways.

Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.

Do let us know how you get on.

This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can't this be done outside of term time?

It's not like teachers don't get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year!

If their holidays are a perk, I'd say they deserve it.

Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,

Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?

Do you do work planning and training in your holidays

Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.

jamj1974 - Member
Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else

I'm not an 'internet hard man' or keyboard warrior - but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one.

Choose please.

Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?

Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.

Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.

I don't and never have. I've worked in the public and private sectors.

How does that make teachers an exception?

surfer - Member

Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,

Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?

You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it's not about your children it's all about you.
What if everybody else decides to take their children out of school? You should be allowed and they have to make up the numbers?

Duckman they are not mutually exclusive statements. I think that to present otherwise is misleading. We all need to be more ready to challenge those who have power invested in them.

I also know teachers, a lot in fact given my line of work. The 8 weeks I point to are what they get as free time. I also work in my holidays as my line of work demands this but this is from my 4 weeks a year. There are also a lot of other people out there who do this so I'm not moaning.

I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

Of the teachers I know (50+) most of them seem to feel the inset days are a bit of a waste and serve little purpose!

Right I'm off to class 😆

So, yes, they are expected to work in their holidays.

No different to many other professionals then?

Clearly he's a human being who is incredulous that someone should have such a level of contempt for something so important.

I dont read "contempt" (I have only read this page) however the language is a bit nasty and its a bit disappointing that you would defend or "spin" this TBH.

Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.

I dont doubt it and some of my best friends are teachers however how does this differentiate teachers from other professions?

Trying to rationalise it by suggesting you know what is best is pretty patronising to those who are employed in the education system

So only those employed in education can judge what is best?

[i]A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?[/i]

The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
The child being out would possibly affect the child.

I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

They were introduced in 1988 by Kenneth Baker. So you're only out by 15 years.

They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

They were introduced 25 years ago by Kenneth Baker. They used to be known as Baker Days.

Edit - too slow, what Ransos said

MrSmith - Member
You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it's not about your children it's all about you.

Wrong. Please try again. You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.

I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

they used to call them teacher training days they were going on in the 80/90's I'm sure

No different to many other professionals then?

and were never about 10 years ago.

Originally known as Baker Days - after Kenneth Baker, Education minister 1986-89......so been around a bit!

Your are confusing teachers and schools though. School want (need) to put on staff training days and as such have to programme them in when the staff they want to deliver them to (teachers) are contracted to be there. Lots of folk elect to work bits of their holidays for various reason but an employer would be in hot water if they attempted to make it formalised.

Why don't they stagger the hols as they do in other countries? Might not save the parents any money but at least it won't be as busy.
A lot of people I know are now travelling up to Scotland for flights as their term times can be different to the uk and it shows in the price. My mate has saved about £200 per flight (times by 4) for flying from Glasgow to Florida instead of leaving from Newcastle.

colp - Member
My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.

or perhaps arrange alternative child care like the rest of the folk whose annual leave is not equal to the number of school holidays.

The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
The child being out would possibly affect the child.

So what would be my response to that. If everyone is to be treated "fairly" and have access to cheaper holidays out of term time, why should teachers be any different? It's either okay for everyone or it's not.

You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.

Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.

For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.

Then those other professionals should take it up with their employers. People should not be expected to work in their holidays. The clue is in the name.

Many people arent in a position to resist or refuse. Many professionals dont have the backing of a strong trade union.

.

Re 'middle class' holidays that include exercise, lets face it absence from schools in greater Manchester would actually be a good thing for the amount of time out v benefit.

Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.

For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.

Well your really not in position to determine this are you. Let me put it like this. A week spent visiting Tuscan architecture, learning the language and interacting with foreign culture against a few days watching videos and playing board games whilst the teachers and school wind down for end of term.
We can all use a bit of pejorative spin you know!

Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.
For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.

I seriously would live to see your definition of education. All academic perhaps? All tied to the national curriculum maybe...?

Maybe you need to widen your perspective and be less obtuse.

If this is the level of respect that you show to your child's school and teachers then I have no doubt that that attitude will rub off on your kid(s) and they won't give two shits about school either. Kids who don't care about school won't achieve nearly as well as those who are engaged and care about it. This is wider than school holidays

Pretty much spot on IMO. Funnily enough, parents are the most important factor in how a child achieves at school. Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.

If the package to Gstaad, Tuscany or Florida is too expensive, do something/go somewhere else. Our holidays never cost that much, tend to be fairly cool and are always during my sons holiday times.

A week spent visiting Tuscan architecture, learning the language and interacting with foreign culture against a few days watching videos and playing board games whilst the teachers and school wind down for end of term.

I look forward to your lesson plan.

I'll prepare it at the weekend 😉

I seriously would live to see your definition of education. All academic perhaps? All tied to the national curriculum maybe...?

It's up to you to provide a definition, as you're the one trying to make a justification. Or is it just possible that you want to spend a week sipping prosecco in a Tuscan villa, while the kids are bored out of their minds?

Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.

Quite. I pity the poor sod who has to deal with kids weighed down by an over-developed sense of entitlement. Frankly, they deserve a long holiday.

parents are the most important factor in how a child achieves at school. Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.

But you are conflating two things. "Taking them out for cheaper holidays" and "poor parental attitudes" dont necessarily go hand in hand. I dont take my children out of school but of the people I know who do they are some of the most committed parents with their children's well being foremost.
I think its a bit more subtle than that and teachers dont like the stereotypes of short hours, long holidays etc but are quite happy to lambast parents who feel that a week out of term time is more than outweighed by the other 360?? days commitment by them to their child's education.
So you are happy to generalise when it suits you

[i]colp - Member
My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.
or perhaps arrange alternative child care like the rest of the folk whose annual leave is not equal to the number of school holidays.[/i]

I think you missed the point. My wife is forced to take different holidays to the ones my son is forced to take. Most people have the option to take the same holidays as their children.
Obviously it's not all of the time but a particular instance is that we have been planning for years to go on a 2 week family holiday to Thailand. It was supposed to be Easter 2014, the term times came out and they have different Easter breaks. So now the family holiday is off.
I know it's not the end of the world but it does highlight that the new ruling can cause problems in some circumstances.

It's up to you to provide a definition, as you're the one trying to make a justification. Or is it just possible that you want to spend a week sipping prosecco in a Tuscan villa, while the kids are bored out of their minds?

Well its not actually me doing it 🙄 however our posts have crossed and you will see above that you cant claim offense when people make generalisations about teachers then make generalisations about them, can you ? You are not n a position to determine what people do on their holiday and its value and how it fits in with rigid educational guidelines.

Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.

Quite. I pity the poor sod who has to deal with kids weighed down by an over-developed sense of entitlement. Frankly, they deserve a long holiday.

Well this is just more sanctimonious sneering isnt it. Almost smacks of jealousy ?

You are not n a position to determine what people do on their holiday and its value and how it fits in with rigid educational guidelines.

No, the school is. And they've already decided.

Well this is just more sanctimonious sneering isnt it. Almost smacks of jealousy ?

I'm not constrained by term time. But when I am, I won't be bleating about it on here.

Well its not actually me doing it

Some people seem to be taking this as a rant against teachers - it really isn't.

Many parents have issues with our current head teacher - we don't seek them out in fact no parent at the school would know we have issues with the heads management of the school. This is from people raising the subject with us. Not new, not an exclusive problem and also not a school where just middle class people who holiday in Tuscany send their children and protest to much. It's a school in a suburb of Birmingham - not a 'middle class' suburb like Sutton Coldfield either...

Seriously several teachers are great in the school and several other great ones have left. We appreciate they work hard, don't mind them taking industrial action regarding terms and conditions and don't expect them to train during their downtime.

I just don't think it's appropriate to seek permission to take the children out for two weeks or be lectured that it is wrong or be forbidden. I don't think this is something to be legislated on or within the power of the school. As an adult I am not prepared to be "bollocked" or carpeted for my parenting decisions. I don't tolerate this treatment at work, I won't tolerate it socially and I won't tolerate it from my child's school either. My strong response in my original post on this thread responded to someone saying a parent had been "bollocked" in a recent previous post on the same thread.

If you are happy to spoken to with little respect that is fine, but I won't have it happen. If the head decides to take issue with my taking of children out - I will be happy to let her know in detail the issues we have with her style, approach and ethos. This is what I meant by a frank exchange of views in my first post on this thread.

And just so people can feel a slight sense of relief - this year we didn't go to Tuscany. We went to the south of France and returned via the Alps. We learnt a lot about marine life and the marine ecosystem. Lots of rock pools to explore etc... Learnt some more French and about geography in terms of location and physical processes like glaciation.

[b]I think you missed the point.[/b] My wife is forced to take different holidays to the ones my son is forced to take. Most people have the option to take the same holidays as their children.
Obviously it's not all of the time but a particular instance is that we have been planning for years to go on a 2 week family holiday to Thailand. It was supposed to be Easter 2014, the term times came out and they have different Easter breaks. So now the family holiday is off.
I know it's not the end of the world but it does highlight that the new ruling can cause problems in some circumstances.

Most folk who aren't teachers don't have as many days holidays as teachers, so there will never be a 100% overlap and so child care will always be needed whilst they are at school. We partly achieve this by staggering some of our holidays - I take a week of leave when my wife is at work and vice versa during the summer.

I would be surprised if your wife and kids holidays didn't overlap for at least 6 weeks a year - which is equal to an average holiday entitlement for someone not in education.

Could we please have a definitive list of other rules, laws and regulations that its ok to break because we don't agree with them.

Just so as I know.

Lots of rock pools to explore etc...

If only we lived in a country where no-one was more than 70 miles from the coast.

ransos - Member
I seriously would live to see your definition of education. All academic perhaps? All tied to the national curriculum maybe...?
It's up to you to provide a definition, as you're the one trying to make a justification. Or is it just possible that you want to spend a week sipping prosecco in a Tuscan villa, while the kids are bored out of their minds?

Ransos. We don't have villa holidays, don't drink and out children are never bored apart from when travelling. They don't allow it! We spend pretty much all our time with them. We don't laze by a pool or sunbathe on a beach - we do stuff with them. That is why we are on holiday with them. We think out children are great and like spending time with them.

Actually I have said several times what we do educationally - our definition is there to be read on our earlier posts.

Ransos. We don't have villa holidays, don't drink and out children are never bored apart from when travelling. They don't allow it! We spend pretty much all our time with them. We don't laze by a pool or sunbathe on a beach - we do stuff with them. That is why we are on holiday with them. We think out children are great and like spending time with them.

Actually I have said several times what we do - our definition is there to be read on our earlier posts.

Good for you. Could you explain why this can't be achieved by taking your holidays out of term time?

tlr - Member
Could we please have a definitive list of other rules, laws and regulations that its ok to break because we don't agree with them.
Just so as I know.

Can you give me a list of those I'm not allowed to challenge or dislike - especially newly implemented ones. Oh actually don't worry - I've found them. They were right next to Mein Kampf on the local library shelf...

Good for you. Could you explain why this can't be achieved by taking your holidays out of term time?

We have gone through this already to the point if nausea... Do you not have children to teach?

We have gone through this already to the point if nausea... Do you not have children to teach?

I'm just curious as to why you found it necessary to travel to the south of France to find a rock pool.

We have taken our children out of education twice in term time - this year and last year. To assure the supposed class warriors on here as well - we have only been to Tuscany once ever...

Good for you. Could you explain why this can't be achieved by taking your holidays out of term time?

You are right there really is a "comprehension" problem 🙄

Oh and theirs more!

I'm just curious as to why you found it necessary to travel to the south of France to find a rock pool.

Nice and warm. Different culture, different climate.

They were right next to Mein Kampf on the local library shelf...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Nice and warm. Different culture, different climate.

Well, that's me sold. Definitely worth the kids missing school for some warmer weather and an abundance of olive oil.

Oh and theirs more!

It's "there's".

What was I saying about missing class?

There is a problem with comprehension here. So...

- Education does not simply equal school

- Respect is a two-way street

- Legislation against holidays is a bit much really

Ransos - you should try it. None of those pesky teachers around either 🙂

What was I saying about missing class?

Well as I was saying, I didnt miss any classes 🙄

I think I just had poor teachers

- Education does not simply equal school

- Respect is a two-way street

- Legislation against holidays is a bit much really

No-one is arguing otherwise. But you have yet to explain why the educational benefit of visiting a French rock pool outweighs the benefit of your kids attending class.

You'd need some pretty thick kids for a couple of weeks out of school to make any odds. If they're that thick does it really matter?

So you're agreeing that there is no net educational benefit from being taken out of class? Ok.

Ransos you need to read what people are saying on this thread other than Surfer and I. Many people are equating school with education. I do show respect to the teachers in school - we have worked effectively with them to ensure our children's education is as supported as it possibly can be. I didn't sign up to restricted holidays when my children started school - there was no policy or legislation to that end. Legislation is aimed to restrict when we can take our children on holiday.

From your posts it so obvious that your definition of a rich educational experience is limited to school. There are many ways, times and places to learn.

So you're agreeing that there is no net educational benefit from being taken out of class? Ok.

But you have yet to explain why the educational benefit of visiting a French rock pool outweighs the benefit of your kids [s]attending class[/s] watching videos and playing board games.

FIFY

They are asking you to follow some rules that nearly everyone else manages to follow, and you signed up for when you got the state to educate your kids.

Except thats not true is it? they have changed, a bit like pensions, which just goes to show you 😀

But you are conflating two things. "Taking them out for cheaper holidays" and "poor parental attitudes" dont necessarily go hand in hand. I dont take my children out of school but of the people I know who do they are some of the most committed parents with their children's well being foremost.

Well maybe they just don't get that by taking their kids out of school they are effectively telling them "school work is secondary to our ski trip/summer holiday".

we have worked effectively with them to ensure our children's education is as supported as it possibly can be

I always find that taking kids out of school is a highly effective strategy for improving educational performance 😕

you signed up for when you got the state to educate your kids.

Is this how you see it?

jamj1974 - I have a lot of sympathy for your approach, but how do expect the head / teachers to respond to your request/insistence to take them out of school in term time?

At risk of evoking Godwin's Law (again), surely they are [i]only following orders[/i] - personal issues with the head aside?

I didn't sign up to restricted holidays when my children started school - there was no policy or legislation to that end. Legislation is aimed to restrict when we can take our children on holiday.

Holidays in term time weren't allowed when I was at school, save for exceptional circumstances at the headteacher's discretion. This is nothing new.

From your posts it so obvious that your definition of a rich educational experience is limited to school. There are many ways, times and places to learn.