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One measure for working out what is acceptable is to ask what would happen if everyone did the same. School can be a great social leveller, but also shows some people think they are more important than others.
Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else. I think everyone should be able to do as I suggest.
Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example...
So they're losing out if they don't go to Italy?
A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?
ransos - Member
So they're losing out if they don't go to Italy?
Gove the op a break, maybe they don't eat pizza at home.
A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?
Only if they're going to Italy...
Jumped the the end of this thread to add my views so may have missed a bit.
Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.
This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can't this be done outside of term time? It's not like teachers don't get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year! The average worker in the UK gets 4-5 weeks off a year so why should we have to use our holiday time off purely because the schools don't want to cut down their holiday time?
It can work both ways.
Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.
Do let us know how you get on.
This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can't this be done outside of term time?
Because it's their holiday. Do you do work planning and training in your holidays?
It's not like teachers don't get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year!
Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it, they have to take it at fixed times (which are the most expensive), they're not especially well paid, and they're performing a difficult and valuable function in our society.
If their holidays are a perk, I'd say they deserve it.
Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,
Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?
Do you do work planning and training in your holidays
Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.
jamj1974 - Member
Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else
I'm not an 'internet hard man' or keyboard warrior - but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one.
Choose please.
Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?
Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.
Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.
I don't and never have. I've worked in the public and private sectors.
How does that make teachers an exception?
surfer - MemberExcept, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,
Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?
ransos is correct, they are expected to work in their holidays. My step son's partner is a teacher and the week before her holidays ended, she was preparing her lesson plan, getting the classroom ready and various training session. So, yes, they are expected to work in their holidays.
You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it's not about your children it's all about you.
What if everybody else decides to take their children out of school? You should be allowed and they have to make up the numbers?
Duckman they are not mutually exclusive statements. I think that to present otherwise is misleading. We all need to be more ready to challenge those who have power invested in them.
I also know teachers, a lot in fact given my line of work. The 8 weeks I point to are what they get as free time. I also work in my holidays as my line of work demands this but this is from my 4 weeks a year. There are also a lot of other people out there who do this so I'm not moaning.
I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.
Of the teachers I know (50+) most of them seem to feel the inset days are a bit of a waste and serve little purpose!
Right I'm off to class 😆
So, yes, they are expected to work in their holidays.
No different to many other professionals then?
Clearly he's a human being who is incredulous that someone should have such a level of contempt for something so important.
I dont read "contempt" (I have only read this page) however the language is a bit nasty and its a bit disappointing that you would defend or "spin" this TBH.
Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.
I dont doubt it and some of my best friends are teachers however how does this differentiate teachers from other professions?
Trying to rationalise it by suggesting you know what is best is pretty patronising to those who are employed in the education system
So only those employed in education can judge what is best?
[i]A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?[/i]
The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
The child being out would possibly affect the child.
I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.
They were introduced in 1988 by Kenneth Baker. So you're only out by 15 years.
They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.
They were introduced 25 years ago by Kenneth Baker. They used to be known as Baker Days.
Edit - too slow, what Ransos said
MrSmith - Member
You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it's not about your children it's all about you.
Wrong. Please try again. You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.
I just don't see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.
they used to call them teacher training days they were going on in the 80/90's I'm sure
No different to many other professionals then?
Then those other professionals should take it up with their employers. People should not be expected to work in their holidays. The clue is in the name.
and were never about 10 years ago.
Originally known as Baker Days - after Kenneth Baker, Education minister 1986-89......so been around a bit!
Your are confusing teachers and schools though. School want (need) to put on staff training days and as such have to programme them in when the staff they want to deliver them to (teachers) are contracted to be there. Lots of folk elect to work bits of their holidays for various reason but an employer would be in hot water if they attempted to make it formalised.
Why don't they stagger the hols as they do in other countries? Might not save the parents any money but at least it won't be as busy.
A lot of people I know are now travelling up to Scotland for flights as their term times can be different to the uk and it shows in the price. My mate has saved about £200 per flight (times by 4) for flying from Glasgow to Florida instead of leaving from Newcastle.
colp - Member
My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.
or perhaps arrange alternative child care like the rest of the folk whose annual leave is not equal to the number of school holidays.
The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
The child being out would possibly affect the child.
So what would be my response to that. If everyone is to be treated "fairly" and have access to cheaper holidays out of term time, why should teachers be any different? It's either okay for everyone or it's not.
You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.
Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.
For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.
Then those other professionals should take it up with their employers. People should not be expected to work in their holidays. The clue is in the name.
Many people arent in a position to resist or refuse. Many professionals dont have the backing of a strong trade union.
.
Re 'middle class' holidays that include exercise, lets face it absence from schools in greater Manchester would actually be a good thing for the amount of time out v benefit.
Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.
Well your really not in position to determine this are you. Let me put it like this. A week spent visiting Tuscan architecture, learning the language and interacting with foreign culture against a few days watching videos and playing board games whilst the teachers and school wind down for end of term.
We can all use a bit of pejorative spin you know!
Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids' absence.
For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.
I seriously would live to see your definition of education. All academic perhaps? All tied to the national curriculum maybe...?
Maybe you need to widen your perspective and be less obtuse.
If this is the level of respect that you show to your child's school and teachers then I have no doubt that that attitude will rub off on your kid(s) and they won't give two shits about school either. Kids who don't care about school won't achieve nearly as well as those who are engaged and care about it. This is wider than school holidays
Pretty much spot on IMO. Funnily enough, parents are the most important factor in how a child achieves at school. Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.
If the package to Gstaad, Tuscany or Florida is too expensive, do something/go somewhere else. Our holidays never cost that much, tend to be fairly cool and are always during my sons holiday times.
A week spent visiting Tuscan architecture, learning the language and interacting with foreign culture against a few days watching videos and playing board games whilst the teachers and school wind down for end of term.
I look forward to your lesson plan.
I'll prepare it at the weekend 😉
I seriously would live to see your definition of education. All academic perhaps? All tied to the national curriculum maybe...?
It's up to you to provide a definition, as you're the one trying to make a justification. Or is it just possible that you want to spend a week sipping prosecco in a Tuscan villa, while the kids are bored out of their minds?
Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.
Quite. I pity the poor sod who has to deal with kids weighed down by an over-developed sense of entitlement. Frankly, they deserve a long holiday.
parents are the most important factor in how a child achieves at school. Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.
But you are conflating two things. "Taking them out for cheaper holidays" and "poor parental attitudes" dont necessarily go hand in hand. I dont take my children out of school but of the people I know who do they are some of the most committed parents with their children's well being foremost.
I think its a bit more subtle than that and teachers dont like the stereotypes of short hours, long holidays etc but are quite happy to lambast parents who feel that a week out of term time is more than outweighed by the other 360?? days commitment by them to their child's education.
So you are happy to generalise when it suits you
[i]colp - Member
My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.
or perhaps arrange alternative child care like the rest of the folk whose annual leave is not equal to the number of school holidays.[/i]
I think you missed the point. My wife is forced to take different holidays to the ones my son is forced to take. Most people have the option to take the same holidays as their children.
Obviously it's not all of the time but a particular instance is that we have been planning for years to go on a 2 week family holiday to Thailand. It was supposed to be Easter 2014, the term times came out and they have different Easter breaks. So now the family holiday is off.
I know it's not the end of the world but it does highlight that the new ruling can cause problems in some circumstances.
It's up to you to provide a definition, as you're the one trying to make a justification. Or is it just possible that you want to spend a week sipping prosecco in a Tuscan villa, while the kids are bored out of their minds?
Well its not actually me doing it 🙄 however our posts have crossed and you will see above that you cant claim offense when people make generalisations about teachers then make generalisations about them, can you ? You are not n a position to determine what people do on their holiday and its value and how it fits in with rigid educational guidelines.
Poor parental attitudes to the importance of education (taking them out for cheaper holidays being a prime example) will rub off fairly quickly on their kid's performance.Quite. I pity the poor sod who has to deal with kids weighed down by an over-developed sense of entitlement. Frankly, they deserve a long holiday.
Well this is just more sanctimonious sneering isnt it. Almost smacks of jealousy ?
You are not n a position to determine what people do on their holiday and its value and how it fits in with rigid educational guidelines.
No, the school is. And they've already decided.
Well this is just more sanctimonious sneering isnt it. Almost smacks of jealousy ?
I'm not constrained by term time. But when I am, I won't be bleating about it on here.
Well its not actually me doing it
I wasn't replying to you. Perhaps your comprehension skills would be better if you hadn't taken so many holidays during term. 😉
Some people seem to be taking this as a rant against teachers - it really isn't.
Many parents have issues with our current head teacher - we don't seek them out in fact no parent at the school would know we have issues with the heads management of the school. This is from people raising the subject with us. Not new, not an exclusive problem and also not a school where just middle class people who holiday in Tuscany send their children and protest to much. It's a school in a suburb of Birmingham - not a 'middle class' suburb like Sutton Coldfield either...
Seriously several teachers are great in the school and several other great ones have left. We appreciate they work hard, don't mind them taking industrial action regarding terms and conditions and don't expect them to train during their downtime.
I just don't think it's appropriate to seek permission to take the children out for two weeks or be lectured that it is wrong or be forbidden. I don't think this is something to be legislated on or within the power of the school. As an adult I am not prepared to be "bollocked" or carpeted for my parenting decisions. I don't tolerate this treatment at work, I won't tolerate it socially and I won't tolerate it from my child's school either. My strong response in my original post on this thread responded to someone saying a parent had been "bollocked" in a recent previous post on the same thread.
If you are happy to spoken to with little respect that is fine, but I won't have it happen. If the head decides to take issue with my taking of children out - I will be happy to let her know in detail the issues we have with her style, approach and ethos. This is what I meant by a frank exchange of views in my first post on this thread.
And just so people can feel a slight sense of relief - this year we didn't go to Tuscany. We went to the south of France and returned via the Alps. We learnt a lot about marine life and the marine ecosystem. Lots of rock pools to explore etc... Learnt some more French and about geography in terms of location and physical processes like glaciation.
[b]I think you missed the point.[/b] My wife is forced to take different holidays to the ones my son is forced to take. Most people have the option to take the same holidays as their children.
Obviously it's not all of the time but a particular instance is that we have been planning for years to go on a 2 week family holiday to Thailand. It was supposed to be Easter 2014, the term times came out and they have different Easter breaks. So now the family holiday is off.
I know it's not the end of the world but it does highlight that the new ruling can cause problems in some circumstances.
Most folk who aren't teachers don't have as many days holidays as teachers, so there will never be a 100% overlap and so child care will always be needed whilst they are at school. We partly achieve this by staggering some of our holidays - I take a week of leave when my wife is at work and vice versa during the summer.
I would be surprised if your wife and kids holidays didn't overlap for at least 6 weeks a year - which is equal to an average holiday entitlement for someone not in education.
Could we please have a definitive list of other rules, laws and regulations that its ok to break because we don't agree with them.
Just so as I know.