MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Do CP fees cover funding?
The reason for asking is that I would rather park somewhere else and closer to one bit I want to ride. But feel its bad karma to skip paying for parking if that is what funds the pace in the first place.
Are cars still being broken into regularly?
Crown Estate pay.
A gift from EIIR??
Car park fees go to Bracknell Council. Crown estate pay for trails but dont get any revenue from carpark i believe.
A gift from EIIR??
only 15%
So not bad form to park elswhere and ride to the trails?
That is interesting. I always assumed that the parking fees contributed. Is there a way we can contribute directly to the trail pixies? I don't have the time luxury of being able to attend the build parties what with 2 pre school kids an all but would like to contribute in other ways if possible.
So, as someone who would like to put a bit of money towards those who do pay for the trails, where should I spend my money? the Cafe?
Does anyone have a connection at the Swinley Bike hub? you'd think they'd know how the money situation works.
There's a Swinley mountain bikers facebook group who are likely to have these sort of answers.
It's a nice day, not working so choices - Swinley, QECP (never been there) or Peaslake?
QECP is fairly dry right now according to my daughter who rode there last night.
Contribute to the relevant Air Ambulance service instead and feel no more bad karma...
Peaselake would be my first choice for a day out, for the views if nothing else.
Swinley for a cheeky couple of hours without having to worry where the trail will lead me as its signed.
QECP, not a fan to be honest, sorry.
QECP is well worth a visit, much better than Swinley.
I always try to avoid parking in the carpark when I use Swinley, can't see the point in giving the local council more money when I don't need to and it doesn't go towards the trails there.
On the other hand, if I drive down to Peaslake and park up in one of the carparks there I'll always stick a couple of quid in the collection things by the carpark entrances. At least the money is going towards something useful, namely the Friends of The Hurtwood group.
Good points ^ and have just contributed to Haslemere Air Ambulance
I am crap at riding trail centres so felt the need to practice and try and get a bit more air!! Under normal circumstances Surrey Hills would be the natural winner. Was on Punchbowl v early this morning and the views were awesome.
Still nice to have a choice. A bit of work/jobs to do first... 😉
QECP car park is even more expensive I believe
tmh deadkenney probably knows the answer
I always put a £1 in the cairn in peaslake but £4-6 for parking at a "trail centre" is nonsense imho
Lovely sunny day today, quick ride later I hope - I can't admit how many months its been since the last one 😐
YGM (sorry for delay)
Where are you riding?
I was walking on Butser the other day and checked out CP - £3.50 all day at QECP
I always put a £1 in the cairn in peaslake but £4-6 for parking at a "trail centre" is nonsense imho
As a former Aston Hill volunteer committee-er, I should probably pipe up.
While the Hill seems expensive (£7 for a day pass; significantly less if you join for a year) when compared to places like Swinley (and Wales...) I can honestly say that every penny paid to ride there goes back into Aston Hill in one way, shape or form. Unfortunately it doesn't get any outside funding either, so is purely reliant on pay-to-ride to cover Forestry Commission costs, insurance, and all the materials and costs that go with running an MTB centre. All the committee are volunteers too.
The flipside of that is the Hill has a pretty impressive track record when it comes to producing decent competitive riders. Phil Atwill and Harry Molloy spring to mind as the new kids on the block, Maxine Filby is a regular and Jen Copnall used to ride all the downhills on her XC bike with the saddle up. Not sure how much semi-local Paul Lasenby used it, but Rob Warner is responsible for the original Black Run too.
I always put a £1 in the cairn in peaslake but £4-6 for parking at a "trail centre" is nonsense imho
I don't object when one funds the other, £5 for day of riding is probably less than the wear and tear on the bike from riding on 'natural' trails in winter, so shifting that £5 to paying to maintain the trail instead is fine.
But only ever pay for Swinley when taking newbies out and don't really want to wear them out on my usual loop from Wokingham. The trails are funded by CE and volunteer labor.
Went yesterday for the first time, loved it. Happy to pay £2 for four hours.
Had a shake down of the new bike build. Feeling pretty smug about life, until I went over the bars and fractured my wrist. Now not so smug. At least A&E was only a couple of hours all in this morning.
@tmh today it will be a very slow 1 to 1.5hr xc loop around Winchester early evening - endomondo says last logged ride was late November.
By going and using the trails cafés etc we make trail centres more popular and business etc thrives. I don't go to them every day but when I do I pay car parking fee and buy coffee etc. I help dig at our local trail centre and it dosent help when people park off site annoying locals who are then more difficult to persuade about the benefits of more trails. Think about what impact your having.
jkomo ouch heal quickly - thats what worries me about TC - natural trails seem softer to me (rocks and trees aside!)
PB - good points. I go to Swinley about 2x a year and normally park. havent used the cafe but probably should for the reasons you give
By going and using the trails cafés etc we make trail centres more popular and business etc thrives. I don't go to them every day but when I do I pay car parking fee and buy coffee etc. I help dig at our local trail centre and it dosent help when people park off site annoying locals who are then more difficult to persuade about the benefits of more trails. Think about what impact your having.
But as noted by others, the money from the Swinley car park and cafe does not go back into the trails or the forest. It's in effect already the 'other' car park, like parking in the council car park at Peebles, then riding to GT/Inners. It's just a cash cow for Bracknell Council.
If you want to see expensive 'trail centre' parking charges take a look here:
http://www.moors-valley.co.uk/visitor-information/car-charges/
Swinley is different to other trail centres, in that the trails are funded by forestry commission but it's the council who reap the benefit of the car park and cafe. As Pawsy_Bear mentions, it's probably worth encouraging the use of the car park to keep local residents on side.
I don't mind paying money as long as the aren't any trails closed for ground-nesting birds!
A couple of people have mention QECP so I will pipe up about how it is funded.
The site Is FC land run by Hampshire County Council(HCC).
HCC contribute £0 to the trail building and £0 of the £3.50 per day parking fee goes £0 to the trail building.
The trail building is 100% funded by the QECP trail Collective volunteers and the races they run.
Interesting thread.
The 'old' Swinley scheme used to be funded by the permit scheme. The permit to ride bought you insurance and once the annual insurance was paid (organised by Gorrick iirc) then any excess went into maintaining the trails - which in turn paid for the hire of diggers and an occasional doughnut for the volunteer trailbuilders*
* who for insurance purposes were drawn from the BOB membership; in short form insuring volunteers was prohibitive whereas insuring the club to do some trailbuilding was workable. It never was a 'local trails for local people' thing despite what people said.
Was it so long ago that the attitude was 'it's public land and I'm not paying to ride there', and that's now become 'how can I get some money back into the trails'?
If you want to see expensive 'trail centre' parking charges take a look here:
Stretching the definition of a trail centre a bit though there! Went once but my then 4 year old was overtaking people on the 'challenge' loop on his 16" wheel single speed, so we moved on to Swinley (I'm about equidistant) which was more fun for the whole horde.
I'm happy to pay to park and get a bun and tea - see it as a contribution to the facility, not necessarily ear marked for bikes.. if there's a few other amenities I sometimes get to ride a cheeky second loop solo whilst they play in the playground.
http://www.moors-valley.co.uk/visitor-information/car-charges/
Nice to see a lovely simple pricing structure...
Stretching the definition of a trail centre a bit though there!
Indeed but I did write 'trail centre' ie in quotes. 🙂
Nice to see a lovely simple pricing structure...
I'd love to know how they can get away with that. They don't deserve any punters at those prices.
occasional doughnut
I seem to recall you partook of more than the occaisional doughnut Jon!!!
Yeah Swinley Lookout car park is leased by Bracknell Council and relatively independent from the estate. When the council decided to introduce charges they actually stated in the application that this was to contribute towards council deficits. They predicted £50k a year income I think. From what I've heard they get way more than this. A lot of it from fines (probably why they aren't keen on pay on exit).
Given the excess the council supposedly have agreed to give some back to CE, CE could then distribute to trails, but I'm not aware this has been done.
In short, parking charges at Swinley does not generally go to trails or upkeep of the forest. I see no problem with parking elsewhere. I'm happy to donate to air ambulance though or some direct trail maintenance fund if there is one.
Peaslake / The Hurtwood is funded by donations and whatever grants they can get. Boxes in car parks, also village store, or you can donate on [url= http://www.hurtwoodcontrol.co.uk/ ]Friends of Hurtwood web site[/url]. All goes to upkeep of the Hurtwood including car parks. Always been their intention to avoid charging for car parks. There's a question mark over new ownership whether things continue as is and if the owners continue to use The Friends charity to maintain it.
Then there's projects like Summer Lightning on Leith which is run by B1KE and gets various funding that I forget where from.
Aston, Rogate etc you're paying for upkeep and insurances and well worth the money for excellent sites like that.
As an FYI, for those that park up at Newlands Corner, the council have agreed a plan to introduce charging there and redevelop the site with restaurant, play areas etc. The idea is to offload it so Surrey Wildlife Trust can run it independently.
I don't like doughnuts, must be thinking of someone else :whistles:
£4-6 for parking at a "trail centre" is nonsense imho
Aah the paradox of the UK mountain biker. Won't pay for it, expects to be given it for free, will use it, and more than happy to complain that what they get isn't good enough.
HCC contribute £0 to the trail building and £0 of the £3.50 per day parking fee goes £0 to the trail building.
😆
Aston Hill is fortunate to have a good relationship with the local Forestry Commission, but the actual site is owned by another party that the FC lease from. I don't know if I've ever been party to the actual breakdown on the FC side, but I'd be intrigued to know how the owner benefits from the agreement.
it's probably worth encouraging the use of the car park to keep local residents on side.
Never heard or seen any local resident objections to the trails (beyond NIMBY objections to their very existence, rather than car parking etc). It's not like the area is short of free car parks* even without parking on Jameston. I'm actually surprised how 'honest' people are paying to park for Swinley, I only assume it's because people think it pays for the trails.
*Divecrew, foresters road behind muzzys kebab van, Sandhurst, Camberly, Bagshot.
It's not like the area is short of free car parks* even without parking on Jameston. I'm actually surprised how 'honest' people are paying to park for Swinley, I only assume it's because people think it pays for the trails.
I fell foul of the 6pm gate shut last time I was there (Feb) and parked in the tennis place over the road. I exited the controlled gate as the filling in an Audi sandwich later on. Not ideal, but it worked at the time.
Saying that, if the gate were open I would have paid.
Moors Valley - just spotted in the 2014/2015 revenue budget monitoring that due to such a good Summer they received £30K in car parking charges for that period. 😯
Is there a way we can contribute directly to the trail pixies?
+1.
£4-6 for parking at a "trail centre" is nonsense imho
I always like this, £3 grands worth of bike, couple of hundred quids worth of clothing/pack, a van or car that accommodates a MTB but wont pay a few quid to ride it on maintained trails...
If you want to kick up a fuss over parking charges, just see Bedgebury prices! 😮
It's a relative thing though. Some would say a one off charge you pay once or a few times a year when you visit places is fair enough. However if you are a regular visitor it becomes a fair old whack of money if you visit every week or several times a week.
My other beef with Swinley is the annual parking permit they provide. £100! Said many times, FC sites are often about £40 a year and give other benefits.
Also crazy is they discount the Swinley annual charge for residents of Bracknell. Seems fair you might say, but then I argue that this is encouraging locals to drive and pollute when they could take public transport or even walk/ride.
cinnamon girl, those prices a bargain compared to my local.. [url= http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-8yckcr ]scroll down to admission charges[/url]
But as noted by others, the money from the Swinley car park and cafe does not go back into the trails or the forest. It's in effect already the 'other' car park, like parking in the council car park at Peebles, then riding to GT/Inners. It's just a cash cow for Bracknell Council.
Your missing the point. Yes the money don't go on trails. Same where I help. But the car park owners and cafe owners often give large donations as does the people organising the event. If they don't make money they won't invest in the facilities at the centre. The cafe and car park owners know their income is coming from the MTB. If you park, eat coffee elsewhere then your not helping. Money isn't going to build trails therefore ..... I avoid paying.
Sorry but it's short sighted views like this that are having a damaging affect.
If TTS set up a PayPal account I reckon they'd get a few quid. I live locally and still have a collection of old permit bands on my pack, so wouldn't mind helping out in that way if I can't make the dig days etc. I just wonder whether cash is the constraint on their work though or whether it's all the ce & natural England red tape plus scheduling the folks to do the work.
Worth point out though that Swinley isn't a dedicated trail centre. It's a leisure facility used by a lot more than mountain bikers. It's only since the official trail network was built that bike numbers have vastly increased. CE used to consider mountain bikes very secondary to the main users. Weekdays the majority in the car park are likely mums and weekends there are still a large amount of families going for walks or to use the cafe and play area or the Lookout Discovery Centre. Possibly the majority.
Sorry but it's short sighted views like this that are having a damaging affect.
Not short sighted, I see your point, but I'm pretty sure in the Swinley case that the council owned cafe and car park don't fund the trails in any way shape or form.
There was some hoo-haa over the overflow car park which is owned by CE not the council, despite the lookout car park being full most weekends in the summer they wouldn't allow CE to turn their end into a proper car park.
As someone else said, I'm not paying £100 for a season ticket to ride the trails, when that money doesn't go into the trails, and when it used to be £10 and the money did go on the trails.
Never heard or seen any local resident objections to the trails (beyond NIMBY objections to their very existence, rather than car parking etc). It's not like the area is short of free car parks
Fair enough, we usually meet in the car park for convenience so I don't know the situation but I know we annoyed locals at a spot we used to ride at which had considerably less users!
the car park owners and cafe owners often give large donations
I've helped TTS in the past, and the impression I got is that that is not the case. There appeared to be resentment toward the council as they simply collect the cash without contributing.
I was adding context that there are wider issues in which trail centres exist. I want talking about Swinley specifically but trail centre issues country wide. I rode Swinley back in the day of the permit. I'm certainly not aware of how there funded as part of Crown Estates? I have a year permit where I live and covers whe forest parking. £23 I think on last renewal. I think the cost of things touches on the wider debate of councils their spending and accountability. There's certainly plenty of success stories around the country where groups are making improvements
@hooli and @bigyim I pay to be a friend of Hurtwood (Surrey Hills) and always put a £1 in the collection cairn, donate to various projects eg Lady Canning a trail I will probably never ride, a bit to QECP. As @scott said zero of the QECP car parking charge goes to the trails. I probably ride Swinley once every 2 years and have ridden at QECP once, each 30 mins away. Bridleways and roads I pay for with my taxes.
Cinnamon Girl - I live close enough to Moors Valley to ride there but I know a lot of people just park around the Ringwood Forest entrances at Ashley Heath, by the old railway line or Verwood Road and just ride in as parking on site is extortionate. Not been up there for a while, is that deathtrap watchmoor jumps area still going?
cinnamon girl, those prices a bargain compared to my local.. scroll down to admission charges
It's similar at Thetford, but again there's other cheap/free options, although to be fair to Thetford High Lodge, there's LOADS to do for families and the yearly pass is pretty good value.
Again, unsure of the trail building relationship with TIMBER, but my personal experience is the FC have a very proactive view towards mountain biking and its development.
cinnamon girl, those prices a bargain compared to my local.. scroll down to admission charges
@ dlr - that's unbelievable! Does anyone actually use the car park or even the trails?
Cinnamon Girl - I live close enough to Moors Valley to ride there but I know a lot of people just park around the Ringwood Forest entrances at Ashley Heath, by the old railway line or Verwood Road and just ride in as parking on site is extortionate. Not been up there for a while, is that deathtrap watchmoor jumps area still going?
@ redstripe - I was given some good information from here about where to park for free but my worry is having my car broken into, not that I leave anything valuable in it. It seems that the place is pretty much funded by car parking charges, that doesn't sit easy with me when it's effectively public land and a public facility that's available to those who can afford to pay.
Have only been there the once, it was good for a quiet ride on the single track. Sorry, don't know about a jumps area.
Hello, Sue from TrailTeam Swinley here. Interesting thread. To put the debate to rest, The Crown Estate do get some money from Bracknell Forest Council from the car park fees, which contributes to the materials used to maintain the trails. TTS are looking into how we can get more funding and/or sponsorship so good to know that there is interest in a direct contribution to the trails. Please like us on Facebook (
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Thanks for reply Sue. We get similar for funding materials. Hopefully it helps riders to understand some of the wider issues and funding routes.
We certainly have a trail fund box in the cafe 🙂
We also get donations from local clubs, event organisers etc
Trail fund box is a good idea, id certainly bung some money in if i knew it was going towards upkeep/more berms.
Trail fund box is a good idea, id certainly bung some money in if i knew it was going towards upkeep/more berms.
+1
CG - re: Moors Valley Parking - it's the little choo choo train, having that they can charge what they like 😀
cinnamon girl, only 1 trail....there is a local club and joining them puts funds back into the trail. The car park money just goes to the global FC pot....granted there is a lot of "stuff" to do there for kids etc but the mtb side is tiny, there are nearby places to park and ride in though
Trail fund box is a good idea, id certainly bung some money in if i knew it was going towards upkeep/more berms.
Can we have a 'skid box' on Deerstalker? A bit like a swear box, but funding the braking bump's! 😛
Cinnamon girl
MV costs £9 for a whole day for a carload of adults/ kids.. in peak season. There's loads to do there.
My sisters kids spent a whole day there, we took a picnic and they hardly scratched the surface.
There's not many places where you get that much play value for less than £2 a person..
Everything costs money to run thesedays. There's loads of public land with no facilities and cheap or free car parking but if you want the draw of a country park and the facilities it offers its gonna cost you.
The pricing structure means that its cheaper to visit in the off peak times. If you go there and ride the blue trail saturday am and leave before 10 am it'll cost a quid any time of the year.
The MTB side is really to get kids and new adults interested in mtb trails and get confidence and skills up. it is also a nice trail with a bit of speed.
MV gets about 900000 visitors a year do they must be doing something right...
All trailcentres are the same, as soon as you build an info point, toilets car park and some trails it costs a lot to empty bins, take your Cr*p away, keep things inspected and maintained and refreshed.
There's not many truly commercial ventures making big bucks out of visitor centres or trail centres. The reasons they were put into S Wales and Scotland, North of England int he first place was all about economic development and getting rural areas regenerated that had lost out as heavy industry departed. No w the reality of running these places with govt and FC funding cut is that it's hard work, despite the numbers of people involved.
There are 2 trail build days coming up if anyone's interested - Thursday 28th April and Saturday 7th May. Working on the Freeride Area - the sign-up sheet's here [url= https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J5b9ywKdtmhWQw7JoWZRQB8wQunVQ_BT4jd1vYExfrw ]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J5b9ywKdtmhWQw7JoWZRQB8wQunVQ_BT4jd1vYExfrw[/url]
Sue - TTS
@ burko73 - yes, I do understand your points and I don't have a problem with paying for parking but their pricing structure smacks of greediness. How on earth can they justify higher charges in school holidays? They can't, imo. Does the cafe charge higher prices in school holidays? Or Go Ape?
I went on my own only to ride some gentle single track and pretty much had it to myself. Could of course be argued that it was good value! I took my own lunch and flask cos I'm tight but also didn't fancy being surrounded by badly behaved kids.
It may be good value for families such as yours but those parking charges can drive away people like me.
burko73 - you don't happen to be the FC district manager who oversees Moors Valley do you?
😆 ^
Might be.... 😉
Might not.... 😉
Sounded a bit too much like corporate speak to try and justify. You've been exposed Mr Burke, pretending to be a punter...... 😳
Actually I like it there but will continue to ride in now just to wind you up ha ha
Bedgebury is expensive just to ride but we often go as a family day out and it is well worth it .
lots to do . kids love it .
on a sunny day in holidays or week end it is packed .
I'm not worried, it doesn't wind me up. There's plenty of room for everyone.
I'm not making things up though, I do take my family there and I do ride there myself.
There's a lot of stuff posted on these threads that's not factually correct or is down to misunderstanding. It's hard work to just keep ignoring it! I think people underestimate the cost of running places like forest centres or whatever.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on here as I'm a biker, been mtbing since 1989, been a subscriber/ posting here/ using the forum for a long time, before I got involved in what I do for a living now.
I am going to jump to the defence of Moors Valley as well
If you go expecting a trail centre then you will be disappointed. If you think the car parking charges are just to pay for your parking then you will also be disappointed
There is a lot of free stuff to do at Moors Valley and it costs money to build/maintain. The family and play trails are both extensive and well looked after, but the key is that most of the stuff is 'family friendly' so will not look good value to adults/old people if they don't have young kids in tow. My Mum hates it and says it is 'stupidly expensive'
However, there are plenty of safe places to park in the area and I am not sure why some (CG?) think it is a rough area that will result in a car that gets broken in to 🙁
For the record, I loved the North Shore stuff, but could only ride about 25% of it. Sadly it has mostly been removed due to age, but the pump track is still there. Importantly, it is not part of Moors Valley, but is in the same part of the forest and is not far from the Moors Valley Singletrack. If you want to ride the pump track then park at Bakers Hanging which is free. If you look around you ay also find some other tracks worth riding in the vicinity 😉
If anyone is interested we'd like to increase the trails at MV. We're prob looking at setting up some vol trail building team alongside our contractors to extend the blue and add some red bits/ loops.
@ bentandbroken. No, I wasn't expecting a trail centre and indeed wasn't wanting one. Swinley Forest used to be my local and its attractions include an impressive looking play park for little and not so little 'uns plus walking trails, Go Ape, Discovery Centre etc. parking charge is £2 for up to 4 hours. It's Crown Estate although some of the land is actually Forestry Commission.
Here's my original post, my reasons for not parking elsewhere were due to being unable to ride far. Please don't think I was saying that it was a rough area and my car could get broken into, I categorically did not say that. I was there mid-week and from personal experience isolated car parks have the potential to be risky outside of normal dog walking times.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/moors-valley-country-park-cycling-tips-please
I'm happy to contribute to the upkeep of trails and to pay to park but what I do object to is the Forestry Commission basically ostracising adult visitors who're not accompanied by children by firmly aiming at the family market. Discrimination, pure and simple and flies in the face of inclusivity.
@burko thanks for what you do, what I would say is I don't underestimate the cost but you can't ignore that the alternative of natural riding is free and in the Surrey Hills its fabulous and better than a trail center not least as there is lots of stuff that wouldn't be allowed due to H&S concerns
Jambalaya
Yep, it's good that we've got trailcentres and loads of natural riding. You'd be surprised at what we can get away with h&s wise if we can't allow it there's a pretty good reason for it. A lot of the people that work for us in the rec teams are bikers and have worked hard to drive a lot of the development that we've seen. It's just a shame the cash is so hard to come by these days. Everything's gotta pay now. That's life in the public sector these days.
I've been involved with some of summer lightning in the Surrey hills and as I was working didn't have time to ride it when I was over there. We've got some good partners over that way doing some great work who will be looking after that trail for us. Anything that's built needs inspecting and maintaining. That's just how it is these days.
I cut my teeth on trails in the wye valley, the Brecon Beacons and up on the mountain above cwmcarn long before trailcentres were invented. I remember racing my '93 clockwork up what is now (or was?) the start of the twrych trail at cwmcarn. Trailcentres are convenient and are great for getting people into the sport as well. It's great that we've got everything we have got these days.
How on earth can they justify higher charges in school holidays?
Have you ever booked pretty much anything in school holidays such as flights, accommodation, then you will know fine well that peak season is more expensive. Think of the rest of the time as cheaper as an incentive to attract people in the quieter times and you'll be a bit closer to understanding the world around you
Have you ever booked pretty much anything in school holidays such as flights, accommodation, then you will know fine well that peak season is more expensive. Think of the rest of the time as cheaper as an incentive to attract people in the quieter times and you'll be a bit closer to understanding the world around you
Yes, I know from experience that flights and accommodation in school holidays sees prices hiked to silly levels. I was not aware however that this extended to parking charges, certainly at Swinley this does not happen where the parking charge is a fraction of those at Moors Valley.
Think of the rest of the time as cheaper as an incentive to attract people in the quieter times and you'll be a bit closer to understanding the world around you
That's the way the industry argues it, except I don't recall prices were massively higher before the school holidays became treated as such a peak (even accounting for inflation). Even where there is some argument for an incentive in quieter times, some are very obviously cashing in on the peak. The off peak incentive may not bring in that much more money compared to whacking up peak prices to a market that has no choice but to go in school holidays.
When talking about flights, prices can increase just by checking flight prices on the web site (literally! have experienced this with several airlines with a group of us checking prices and price shoots up. Get one person to check and price stays lower. Likewise with booking).