[Closed] Starting running - any tips?

Starting running - any tips?

Stop and turn round half way......or go in a big circle.

Otherwise, when you're finished you'll be miles from the house.

Thanks PP, helpful as always 😆

Run for a bit, walk for a bit, run for a bit, walk for a bit.

Gradually increase the running and decrease the walking.

Google Couch to 5k

Starting running - any tips?

Its like walking, but faster. Therefore things get in your way sooner, like lampposts and dog poo. Best tip is therefore to look where you are going

Learn how to deal with aggressive dogs.

Don't do it. Save your knees, ankles, hips and back and stick to the bike.

If you live near nice trails* to ride on, run on them. They'll still be nice, just different. Then, take your fell shoes, and go run on some nice open mountains. Pure bliss.

Running offroad is one of the longest held pleasures I have. Also, works as a very nice way to scout cheeky when you'd probably not ride down a trail because it may not be worth it.

After 20 years of fell running my joints are still fine. Better than most of my biking mates.

*Maybe not if they are Llandegla or some other trailcenter nonsense.

If you're bike fit then you need to take it very easy at first, otherwise an injury is a cert. You basically have the engine, but the legs aren't conditioned, so you can easily overdo it.

If you're generally unfit then this is less of an issue as your aerobic condition is in synch with your legs, so there's less chance of overcooking things.

Step 1. Shoes. You can spend hundreds on advice and shoes, but to save over complicating things, try lots on and buy the pair that are most comfortable. I swear by Asics Cumulus (the 18 model is currently discounted in lots of places) but my feet are likely different to yours. Nike Pegasus are, for good reason, very popular indeed.
Step 2. Download Couch to 5k. As a relatively fit cyclist you'll likely find it a tad frustrating and want to push on, don't do too much or injury may be just round the corner.
Step 3. Parkrun. 5k on a Saturday morning gets very addictive, particularly as you PB starts to fall, embrace it, it's an awesome event.
Step 4. Run. As you get into it you'll start to find the kind of running you enjoy, long or short, on or off road. I'm a relatively recent convert and am yet to work out why I didn't embrace it sooner. The lack of faff and the time efficiency (I feel more tired after a 1 hour run than a 3 or 4 hour cycle) make is a rather wonderful thing to do.

Go to a proper running shop and try a few pairs fo shoes - the differences are huge.

As above, don;t go out and run for half an hour just 'cos your lungs are up to it. You'll be going upstairs backwards for a week and small children point and laugh when you get in and out of cars/chairs/etc.

Start slow and short and build up. I found trail running to be a good way of getting into it as it doesn't seem as hard on the feet.

Do ankle strengthening exercises.

Take it easy and build the leg strength up slowly. Also aim for a high cadence. I try to plan my runs as X minutes rather than X miles as it deemphasises speed. My best half time came after doing no fast long runs. Did lots of longer runs but at a much slower pace as I was helping my neighbour do his first half.

If you can run off-road it will be kinder to knees and back than tarmac. Take care in the wet as you won't have the muscle condition to deal with slips (bitter experience on week 3 of C25K, a month waiting for the muscle to heal).
If you're reasonably bike fit starting at week 3 on C25K will work, warm up and cool down/stretch properly though else the bike riding will suffer from leaden calves/shins.

Running always used to really hurt my joints and shins - if you have shin splints / aching ankles then try calf compression sleeves / ankle sleeves - they might look ridiculous but it has instantly removed all pain for me and means I can run every day.

[url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0171H1LR0/ ]Calf Compression[/url]
[url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0722GY1Y7/ ]Ankles[/url]

I also bought some Hoka shoes which are incredibly comfortable due to extra padding - were half price at Sports Shoes

Save your knees, ankles, hips and back and stick to the bike

If you can run off-road it will be kinder to knees and back than tarmac

These things arent true so dont worry about "wearing your knees out" etc. Just a myth. Also running on softer surfaces, although intuitively should be easier on the legs, isnt.

I'm a huge fan of Hokas' see here [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/hoka-running-shoes-my-experience-for-other-runners-interested ]My Hoka thoughts![/url] although I would prefer to run in more flexy and less cumbersome shoes like Nikes or my racing fell shoes etc. An Arthritic big toe means I run in Hoka's only due to the less flexy forefoot and "rocker"

if you have shin splints

It’s even more fun in the rain. (And you don’t have to clean your bike after)

Rachel

It’s even more fun in the rain.

I'm about 2 weeks into doing the same.

My thoughts so far -

- Following advice on here bought a pair of the Nike Pegasus trainers, surprising how much difference they make having not worn anything resembling a running shoe for about 15 years.

- Downloaded 'Couch to 5k' but found it annoying - sacked it off in favour of a 4k route, started at a leisurely peace which I'll increase until it feels easy then add to it, and repeat.

- Nice thing about it is how simple it is, no faffing with bikes, kit etc just trainers on and off you go.

- It still sucks but not as much as riding the road bike.

Make sure you do a good, dynamic warm-up before you head out: I do around 10 mins. Not stretching, but things like lunges, forward leg swings, torso rotations etc.

In the spirit of recommend what you own, if you fancy trail running then last season inov8 shoes are often heavily discounted and I can't help but endorse the Trailroc. Knobbly enough for grip off-road but not so much that you feel like you've no grip on tarmac (think XC tyres). I've a pair of Mudclaws that I used to wear when running around the Fens in winter, they're like mud spikes. Walking down the road to the field felt like when you had to walk across the concrete in football boots.

Oh and don't try trail running in road shoes, if there's any exposed roots you'll slide off them and probably hurt yourself. At least I didn't fall into the river!

Trail run, take it easy for 4 weeks..

Another vote for trail running here. You don't have to slow down for pedestrians, to cross roads etc, plus you get better scenery. It's a good option to have when it's raining and / or muddy and as long as it's not too warm. Plus you can have fun planning routes that go over all those stiles that you wouldn't dream of lifting a mountain bike over.

Trailrocs: Good if you can get them to fit (they are far too long for my averagely wide feet, hence I get loads of heel lift), but they are reasonably OK on the road, on dry rock and in the mud. Plus they are relatively cheap, but prepare yourself for buying at least three different makes of shoe until you get something that works for you. But I'd start with any of the Mizuno trail shoes from wiggle as they seem a fairly "standard" fit. You want a thumbs width between your toes and the ends of the shoes tho' otherwise your toenails will bang against the ends of the shoes when you run downhill, and they'll go lovely and black before falling off.

Despite having a gait analysis and proper shoe fitting I had various biomechanical problems due to various weak muscles from years of cycling and sitting hunched over at a desk. I'd have a look at some of the running technique vids on youtube and try to start running with a conscious awareness of your stride so you aren't landing on your heels etc.

Nice to see no snake oil advice on this thread yet ! Just sensible good advice.

I run more than bike these days...just been out to do 5 miles. No faffing with bikes & gear, just you.

As you up the miles you do need to take care of yourself. But then injury only comes from over doing it just like any sport

Apart from the usual advice of spending 8k on a pair of sneaks or running won't work - If you are a chap, talc on the old stones. They'll start swinging to the rhythm and wear away your inner thigh to an angry red mess in no time.

And yeah, start slow, build up.

Thanks all 🙂

Good shorts with built in liners and no normal underwear sorted the above for me.

These things arent true so dont worry about "wearing your knees out" etc. Just a myth. Also running on softer surfaces, although intuitively should be easier on the legs, isnt.

You might want to have a word with my orthopaedic surgeon (sports specialist, surgeon to premier league football players and full on cyclist and ex runner himself- that's why I chose him) and tell him he got my diagnosis wrong. Mine was a hip not a knee mind. Congenital issue with a hip impingement (something like 30% of us have it to some extent) which meant 20 years of running/triathlon pretty much trashed it. All reshaped now and had all the (irreparable sadly) cartilage removed from around the joint but I've been advised running with an unsupported and unprotected hip would be a one way street to arthritis and a complete new hip in 18months so best avoided.

Wearing out a joint if biomechanically imperfect is very much a thing and sadly no normal person knows if this is them until too late. I was a sub 34min 10Km, sub 2hr 40 marathon runner so not an obvious choice for a biomechanical mess.

He also said if you must go for a head clearing jog once in a while do it off road, so he clearly knows nothing.

I really miss running. Such a pure pursuit.

I second ParkRun, it's great to run with others and although you're only competing against your own PB there is an element of being dragged along by that person who you can't quite catch. My 13 year old son is 6' 2" and stocky but he's gone from a PB of ~46 mins to 27:04 in the last 6 months by running ParkRun and doing another 5K with me once in the week.

If you go the Couch to 5K route do what it says, loads of apps to help, and don't be tempted to miss out the easy stuff in the first few weeks it's a proven way of getting to run a 5K.

Our ParkRun is off road on an old golf course so it's much kinder on the knees, but can be muddy in winter :-), so if you can find a park or such like run there and then move to trail running.

HTH

It's crap. Really, it is.

so he clearly knows nothing.

Needs to be evidenced based. I know loads of people with dodgy knees/hips etc who have never done any real exercise and runners/cyclists of 50yrs plus who have no joint issues of note.
Doctors only see people with joint issues and people tend not to visit them to say they have no joint issues, do they?
The whole "wearing out" argument is mechanical based and we are not cars! It may be comforting for sedentary types who trot it out to make themselves feel better but their is evidence of the opposite, that exercise cause strengthening and re-generation as oppose to "wear"

Anyway I would love to see evidence.

My sports physio not too gently suggests a man of my antiquity with a litany of easy to aggravate old injuries should not break out into more than a fast jog. Even if being chased by a bear 😉

I mostly ignore her and all the good advice off here. Started running 5km after doing no running at all for 20 years. Then ran a bit further. Then got bored and stopped. Then broke my hand and started again. At no point did I get injured, but I definitely ached a bit!

After 6 weeks off did my first trail run last night 11km/300m of climbing. Found that very tough both up and down but much more enjoyable than road running and definitely felt less brutal on various joints. The fact it's steeper than the stuff I normally do really slowed me down. I blame anaerobic respiration requirements v life long asthma sufferer.

I'll be better next week tho!

TLDR- good advice here. I didn't follow it. Didn't die. Trail running is where I'm at now. Might watch a running video just so I can laugh at the difference between my wonky gait and a proper athlete.

- Nice thing about it is how simple it is, no faffing with bikes, kit etc just trainers on and off you go.

This, I can go out from home, do 10k and be home and showered in just over an hour. Can go in the gap between rain showers without ending up filthy. You can throw a pair of shoes and shorts in a small bag when you're visiting family and get out for a run.

- It still sucks but not as much as riding the road bike.

No-one has added music. I find motivation and pace difficult without a running app and a bit of music in a way I don't for riding.

We got given various armband cases but http://www.tunebelt.com/ are by far the best I've seen. They even have sizes for use with your phone in a case. Bluetooth Wireless headphones are way better than wired. I've not tried any others but these are way better than they have any right to be for £25 http://www.gearbest.com/sports-fitness-headphones/pp_356162.html

Surfer - I lean more to your version of events (married to an Orthopaedic surgeon)

The wear & tear can come from a number of causes, and I belive you are right that exercise helps prevent wear in the first place, but there are many factors.

However as I understand once damage has occured running isnt going to helps things particularly. Cycling is no impact where as runnnig of any sort is. Also cycling strengthens ligaments in the knee that running doesnt do in the same way.

Personally I find more minimal shoes (less cushioned) give me less knee problems than cushioned shoes.

Anyway I would love to see evidence.

I (like you) am no doctor so you'll need to find your evidence elsewhere. Safe to say though, I'm happy to take the knowledge of a surgeon (who specialises in treating sports people and is an elite level sportsman himself) as a reasonable start.

I know loads of people with dodgy knees/hips etc who have never done any real exercise and runners/cyclists of 50yrs plus who have no joint issues of note.

Luck of the draw innit. I was unlucky. If you are born biomechanically well you are likely to be more lucky. Plenty of people I raced and trained with still going strong and I've no doubt will keep going for years to come.

Your use of the phrase 'wearing out' is narrow. I can only really talk about my own case - Born with a cam impingement (I now know, after an arthroscopy in my mid 40s - a procedure which is now becoming routine amongst teenage premier league future stars for preventative surgery) which is effectively a bulge on my femur head. This put a lot extra stress on the joint causing wear inside the joint and to the cartilage around the joint. The photos from the operation showed the cartilage as looking more like the tentacles of a sea anemone that a useful bit of me! Of course this was the same hip I walked on, sat around on and generally did everything else with. It must all be contributory to some extent but I'm relatively happy when an 'expert' tells me if I had lived a 'normal' life with an impingment of the significance I had I should not have experienced problems until my retirement years but the extra punishment 50 miles a week of running put my hip through accelerated the issue, that they might have a point. Did I 'wear it out' or just trash a malformed joint prematurely - I think the difference is semantics.

Anyway, I'd not want to put anyone off running as it is brilliant and I'm glad I did what I did and think the overall health benefits are positive but you just need to go into it with your eyes open. I think your original comment was unhelpful and inaccurate on that score.

OP: Running is good for you but 'dangerous' if done wrongly.
I'm from the 'exercise is regenerative' philosophy camp. Problem is most of us do it wrong to a greater of lesser extent. The injury incidence of new runners is well documented, sadly very high. Big fan of Dr Starrett - here's a 3.5min video on preparation for running

I would also advocate minimalist shoes until you have reached the, say over 10k, pace you are satisfied with then cushioned shoes might help you run further. I have poor mechanical flexibility for running however have run up to 60km / week without injury.

I think your original comment was unhelpful and inaccurate on that score.

Yet you have provided no evidence to negate it.

Did I 'wear it out' or just trash a malformed joint prematurely - I think the difference is semantics.

Really?

In fact I would go further and say that to tell somebody who wants to take up running that they shouldn't "because their joints will wear out" is both ridiculous and unfounded, despite the anecdotal evidence from your unnamed doctor.

Yet you have provided no evidence to negate it.

As I said, I don't have a back catalogue of the Lancet sitting on the shelf here and neither would I be presumptuous enough to declare any expertise beyond personal experience.To spin it round where is your evidence of sport not accelerating the 'wearing out' of body joints?

To quote a consultant orthopedic surgeon talking about Andy Murray's hip issue at Wimbledon.

Stafford said: "What he has said would suggest he has potentially an underlying problem called dysplasia, which is a slightly shallow socket.

"There are obviously various ranges of that and his clearly must be quite mild since he's playing sport at the top level.

"However, what having that will do is [b]it will predispose him to early wear and tear problems in the hip[/b], because the way that the hip carries weight is wrong.

If he is prepared to talk about wear and tear I am too. I'm not necessarily talking about wearing away biomechanicaly perfect joints but accelerated wear on imperfect joints is clearly a thing and very few of us know if we are predisposed to issues until it is too late.

In fact I would go further and say that to tell somebody who wants to take up running that they shouldn't "because their joints will wear out" is both ridiculous and unfounded, despite the anecdotal evidence from your unnamed doctor.

Did you actually read what I said:-

[b]I'd not want to put anyone off running as it is brilliant and I'm glad I did what I did [/b]and think the overall health benefits are positive but you just need to go into it with your eyes open.

Take it easy to begin with, try to run but don't worry if you have to run walk run to begin with. stop if it hurts. Don't worry about times or distances, just go for a run. Do that for longer than you think you should (it'll make all the difference later on, trust me)

Make sure socks and trainers are comfy for you, other people's advice about brands is mostly useless to you.

@surfer ... is this a new record for you? This running thread didn't even get to the bottom of the first page before you'd started being deliberately argumentative, belligerent and antagonistic ...

And no one has even mentioned post run 'stretching' yet ... 😆

I think there is strong evidence that moderate levels of exercise are basically good for people in many respects. I'm not at all surprised to find that some pro-level sportspeople knacker themselves during their career and even if this is a significant problem for many of them, it in no way invalidates my first sentence. For pretty much everyone who is thinking of taking up occasional recreational running in adulthood, it will do them more good than harm, especially if they are careful to start gently and not over-do it too soon.

I can go out from home, do 10k and be home and showered in just over an hour

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time 🙂

Ok I'm lucky, but still. Running's crap 😉

I read something the other day that running in your 30's and 40's really helps to increase bone density and with our modern sedentary lifestyles and diets, is something we really need.

As for how to start - I started 2 or 3 years ago and just picked a 5km off-road loop and went and ran it. When I got tired, I walked until I could run again. Each time I went I tried to run further than the last before walking. I had the odd ache or pain but nothing serious. I found good quality compression undershorts helped make things a bit more comfortable 😉

As much as I would prefer to cycle, it is a great way to get some exercise in crappy weather or when short of time.

One thing I found was that running also utilises the secondary muscle groups that provide stability to joints. Cycling doesn't do this to the same extent.

The point about bone density is valid.

Running crap? No! (smiley noted) We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do.

Running's very low tech - I'd get home, get changed and be out of the door running in under ten minutes whatever the time of year. Forty minutes to an hour later I'm back home after a solid workout. (Helps that we live out in the country with some great trails right outside the house)

is this a new record for you?

It does seem that the number of unqualified people willing to give advice on this subject is increasing, so I have to get in earlier.

Running's very low tech - I'd get home, get changed and be out of the door running in under ten minutes whatever the time of year. Forty minutes to an hour later I'm back home after a solid workout. (Helps that we live out in the country with some great trails right outside the house)

Yep, great value for effort! Doesnt stop a lot of people trying to complicate it though. Blame the increase in glossy mags etc trying to "moneterise" sp everything. There seems no shortage of people willing to lap it up though eh Digby? 😀

If he is prepared to talk about wear and tear I am too.

Bit lazy though isnt it? Sound like he is predisposed to hip problems already. Remember Jim Fixx? famous for "inventing" jogging. He died in his early 50's of heart attack whilst out running. The media went on to claim "jogging" is bad for you etc.... When you look at the evidence however his father died even earlier and he was predisposed to heart disease. The likelihood is that running extended his life. Lets not let a good story.....

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do

Hmmmmmmm 😕

Bit lazy though isnt it? Sound like he is predisposed to hip problems already.

[Bangs head against wall]

Yes, it sounds like he is. Like I was too. Like millions of people are to all sorts of issues for whom 'wear and tear' will come more easily because they are not 'perfect'. Like the very point I made from my first post.

It sounds like Murray could well have a very mild genetic problem he was born with. In most people it would have remained dormant right into his old age but because he chose to run around like a loon he wore out a hip that was predisposed to wear to the point it's gives him grief before his 30th birthday. Being biomechanically perfect is almost freakish, most people are carrying a closet in our skeleton.

A lot of folk who are predisposed to an issue where running could help to add early wear and tear simply won't do enough of it to make a tangible difference so it's not a biggy for them and I say again I would encourage people to run if they can because it is overall good for body and soul. But you can't call running related wear and tear fake news for everyone.

carrying a closet in our skeleton

Well done.

Really what you are saying cant be proven or disproven, nobody is perfect etc etc.. what is important is that there is no evidence that I have seen (no expert so please point me to it if you have any) and your highlighted quote above means nothing. I do think if joints wore out as you argue and dont regenerate then we would have a very short shelf life indeed and there would be health warnings on exercise.
Neil Armstrong claimed we all only had a finite number of hearbeats and exercise meant we used them up more quickly! I will take my chances 🙂

Having been told by an orthopod 11 years ago not to run anymore after a knee op, I have been running again since late spring. I have a shoulder injury at present (well since December) which is putting paid to the gym as can only do leg stuff, I've lost my bike mojo and need to exercise. I run a variation on a 4 mile loop from the house, we're lucky and have fields, paths and trails out the door. It helps too we added a spaniel to the family last autumn and he needs a lot of exercise. I'm really enjoying it, gets me out, gets the dog out and clears my head as work is very full on presently. I've previously used Salomon trainers but have been using Inov8 this year and really pleased with them. Sports Shoes have good offers on them.
The upshot is start steady and build-up you will certainly feel it compared to the muscles used for cycling. Enjoy!!

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do

The lovely Prof Alice Roberts makes some interesting anatomical observations about the evolution of our species (assuming you accept the theory of evolution that is!)

In a nut shell standing upright has its benefits, but it also has its compromises - especially for the hips ...

These 'genetic dispositions' often manifest themselves when we are 50+

No reason to stop running as you get older - just try and listen to your body and take remedial action if necessary rather than just trying to ignore it.

There seems no shortage of people willing to lap it up though eh Digby?

Very true ... As Bing Crosby's character in 'White Christmas' says:

"everybody's got an angle"

Having been told by an orthopod

Was this the scene?

[img] [/img]

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do.

Not sure that's true. Look at the huge variety of body types on offer today. Some lean distance runners, some muscle-bound hulks. Of course, we're probably more flexible than many animals - apparently it's possible to walk down a white-tailed deer never mind run.

If you want to get fit sprinting is the running to do, steady state cardio is a mugs game.

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

Yeah, but if you're looking to get a bit of decent exercise in that's far too short a loop on a bike - unless you're a real porker you'll only just be warming up by that point.

Yeah, but if you're looking to get a bit of decent exercise in that's far too short a loop on a bike

Nope, it's very hilly. Good interval workout.

But I do sometimes run too. Usually when it's too late or something. It hurts though and not in a good way.

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

You need to get faster running then. Off-road on decent technical up and down stuff a bike is slower than running

10 miles and 400m of ascent in an hour and five minutes?

You up for a race? 🙂

I never said I was a good runner 😆

I know a few very good runners who could easily do it!

Edit: To be fair just working it out I wouldn't be that far behind running, it's only 1300ft climbing and 10 miles so prob 1 1/2 hrs, and I'd consider myself a very avg runner!

- Nice thing about it is how simple it is, no faffing with bikes, kit etc just trainers on and off you go.

It's like comparing a microwaved Greggs steak bake to a full on home made steak pie and all the trimmings.

Sure, it's easier, but by **** it's dull by comparison.

Sure, it's easier, but by **** it's dull by comparison

Granted some cyclist more so mtb'rs won't get it. Biking is all about bullshit i.e. I had the wrong tyre, wrong bike, etc etc.

No bull in running if you don't perform it's you and no excuse....which leads on to the type of people that run v bike.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't i.e. they will get a lift to the top as it means they don't have to work as hard. 😛

Another vote for Parkrun. Don't bother with the couch to 5K stuff, just go straight to park run and walk it fast if you have to just running the bits you feel comfortable on. And watch your knees, no need to knacker yourself out before you know what youre doing.

Biking is all about bullshit i.e. I had the wrong tyre, wrong bike, etc etc.

It might be for you.... not over here though.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't i.e. they will get a lift to the top as it means they don't have to work as hard.

I must hang out with different MTBers than you!

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't

terrible generalisation is terrible 😆

Seriously though, there are many more MTBers than the 'new golf' set. I love to test myself physically - I'm just not very good at distance running and never have been. It's always a struggle.

people do stuff for loads of different reasons though and running (for me) is mostly contemplative rather than "strictly" speed or competitive. I can run for hours really with only a bit of my mind on where I'm going, without caring about speed. I like than my body is able to do this, and I keep an interest in keeping in good enough shape to let me carry on doing it, but I don't care to "push" myself overly much.

I wish I could run for hours. I have to calm myself down before I set out because part of my brain is asking why the hell I am going to do this and anticipating the pain.

On the bike however I love really pushing myself on steep climbs and long rides, it's really satisfying.

Another thing to consider is some yoga or pilates (or at least find yourself a good set of core exercises) to improve your core stability.

A good (and easy) check to see what your stability is like is to stand in front of a mirror and stand on one leg (try both legs in turn obviously). If you are wobbling around all over the place your core is weak (and this is quite natural for people that spend lots of their time on a bike as the core isn't really worked that hard) which can lead to injuries. Someone with good core strength can stand on one leg and remain perfectly still.

I was always "better"* at the medium to long distance races - the short (< 6 miles following the FRA definitions) were just too fast and too close to my limit effort wise.

Comparing running and cycling is more like comparing an homemade steak pie and a sirloin steak. The Greggs steak bake would be darts 😆

*Actually I was always about a third of the way down the field no matter what distance. I did a scatter diagram once of a year's race results plotting percentage of winner's time against position. Apart from a few outliers I was usually around 150% of the winner's time and a third of the way down the field.

Someone with good [s]core strength[/s] [b]knee proprioception[/b] can stand on one leg and remain perfectly still.

Whilst 'core strength' in and of itself is clearly a *good* thing the ability to balance on one leg without wobble is more down to the stability of the knee joint - this can be enhanced with the use of balance/wobble boards and is frequently used in the rehab of knee injury.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't

Well MTB'ers do have a (possibly deserved) reputation for spending two thirds of their rides standing around eating kitkats interspersed with the odd bit of riding.

But in general, i find that a very small percentage of the population (be they runnerists, bikerists or gymbunnyists) actually like the pain and suffering, and most will 'claim' to be suffering, but their breathing and HR charts show that they've barely cracked open the door to the hurt locker - certainly a long way from clambering in and closing the door behind them.

That's what my local loop is for. Two brutal climbs, the rest normal riding.

But it's a valid point - MTBing is a pretty broad sport in terms of how it's approached. Lots of people hanging around a bike park/DH run all afternoon, chilling and sessioning. And that's fine. Likewise there are XC racers who know their lactate threshold in watts. And people who do SDW quadruples and all the rest of it. MTBing has always been a mix of extreme sport, endurance sport, fitness pursuit and outdoor pursuit - and each of us enjoys those aspects in varying amounts.

Of those, only the XC racers are comparable to the typical runner. In fact, running is more comparable to road cycling I think.

Whilst 'core strength' in and of itself is clearly a *good* thing the ability to balance on one leg without wobble is more down to the stability of the knee joint - this can be enhanced with the use of balance/wobble boards and is frequently used in the rehab of knee injury.

Is even that true? Ankle/foot comes into it as well - was part of my rehab after broken ankle. Of the core/ankle/knee I'm not convinced the knee is the prime contributor

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

Very jealous. I've got a road loop I do from home that's the same sort of time - it's about the minimum it feels like getting out on a bike for. However, I can get the same impact from a run that takes less time - there's always more faffing with a bike even if all the kit is lined up on a shelf ready to go.

I've just stood on one leg, my knee ankle and foot moved around quite a bit, but I don't think I "engaged" my core at all.

That's true, running is faster.

But the two activities aren't really comparable, to me. My loop includes some great trails, whereas if I go for a run its basically suburban housing estates. I could run to the trails but that involves a pretty unpleasant narrow rat run lane and even then it's a bloody long run for me.

If you want to get fit sprinting is the running to do, steady state cardio is a mugs game.

That sounds like the type of generalisation that I would make and I salute you!
It is certainly true that "intervals" provide by far the most time efficient way to get faster, and Zatopek (who was in my opinion the greatest distance runner of all time) did nothing but intervals. Such as 40x400m in the morning then 40x200m in the afternoon etc etc. Most distance runners include longer runs at threshold pace as well as hill repeats etc but whether that is simply because intervals every day is hard work and boring!
As a mate of mine used to say, "intervals is training all the other stuff is just fluff"

See, this is also the sort of generalisation that I don't like, running isn't just about always going faster or racing. Sometimes it's just moving for the sake of it

Sometimes it's just moving for the sake of it

That would be walking...

Are running threads the new 'What Tyres?' threads?

As others have said, start slow, don't increase the pace / distance / intensity too quickly and if you manage to keep it up for a bit treat yourself to new shoes. You may find after 3 runs its not for you and you've wasted your money.

As for the whole Runners are harder than bikers thing, that's just BS. Any running club has its fair mix of casual and serious runners.