[Closed] Starting running - any tips?

One thing I found was that running also utilises the secondary muscle groups that provide stability to joints. Cycling doesn't do this to the same extent.

The point about bone density is valid.

Running crap? No! (smiley noted) We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do.

Running's very low tech - I'd get home, get changed and be out of the door running in under ten minutes whatever the time of year. Forty minutes to an hour later I'm back home after a solid workout. (Helps that we live out in the country with some great trails right outside the house)

is this a new record for you?

It does seem that the number of unqualified people willing to give advice on this subject is increasing, so I have to get in earlier.

Running's very low tech - I'd get home, get changed and be out of the door running in under ten minutes whatever the time of year. Forty minutes to an hour later I'm back home after a solid workout. (Helps that we live out in the country with some great trails right outside the house)

Yep, great value for effort! Doesnt stop a lot of people trying to complicate it though. Blame the increase in glossy mags etc trying to "moneterise" sp everything. There seems no shortage of people willing to lap it up though eh Digby? 😀

If he is prepared to talk about wear and tear I am too.

Bit lazy though isnt it? Sound like he is predisposed to hip problems already. Remember Jim Fixx? famous for "inventing" jogging. He died in his early 50's of heart attack whilst out running. The media went on to claim "jogging" is bad for you etc.... When you look at the evidence however his father died even earlier and he was predisposed to heart disease. The likelihood is that running extended his life. Lets not let a good story.....

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do

Hmmmmmmm 😕

Bit lazy though isnt it? Sound like he is predisposed to hip problems already.

[Bangs head against wall]

Yes, it sounds like he is. Like I was too. Like millions of people are to all sorts of issues for whom 'wear and tear' will come more easily because they are not 'perfect'. Like the very point I made from my first post.

It sounds like Murray could well have a very mild genetic problem he was born with. In most people it would have remained dormant right into his old age but because he chose to run around like a loon he wore out a hip that was predisposed to wear to the point it's gives him grief before his 30th birthday. Being biomechanically perfect is almost freakish, most people are carrying a closet in our skeleton.

A lot of folk who are predisposed to an issue where running could help to add early wear and tear simply won't do enough of it to make a tangible difference so it's not a biggy for them and I say again I would encourage people to run if they can because it is overall good for body and soul. But you can't call running related wear and tear fake news for everyone.

carrying a closet in our skeleton

Well done.

Really what you are saying cant be proven or disproven, nobody is perfect etc etc.. what is important is that there is no evidence that I have seen (no expert so please point me to it if you have any) and your highlighted quote above means nothing. I do think if joints wore out as you argue and dont regenerate then we would have a very short shelf life indeed and there would be health warnings on exercise.
Neil Armstrong claimed we all only had a finite number of hearbeats and exercise meant we used them up more quickly! I will take my chances 🙂

Having been told by an orthopod 11 years ago not to run anymore after a knee op, I have been running again since late spring. I have a shoulder injury at present (well since December) which is putting paid to the gym as can only do leg stuff, I've lost my bike mojo and need to exercise. I run a variation on a 4 mile loop from the house, we're lucky and have fields, paths and trails out the door. It helps too we added a spaniel to the family last autumn and he needs a lot of exercise. I'm really enjoying it, gets me out, gets the dog out and clears my head as work is very full on presently. I've previously used Salomon trainers but have been using Inov8 this year and really pleased with them. Sports Shoes have good offers on them.
The upshot is start steady and build-up you will certainly feel it compared to the muscles used for cycling. Enjoy!!

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do

The lovely Prof Alice Roberts makes some interesting anatomical observations about the evolution of our species (assuming you accept the theory of evolution that is!)

In a nut shell standing upright has its benefits, but it also has its compromises - especially for the hips ...

These 'genetic dispositions' often manifest themselves when we are 50+

No reason to stop running as you get older - just try and listen to your body and take remedial action if necessary rather than just trying to ignore it.

There seems no shortage of people willing to lap it up though eh Digby?

Very true ... As Bing Crosby's character in 'White Christmas' says:

"everybody's got an angle"

Having been told by an orthopod

Was this the scene?

[img] [/img]

We evolved as pursuit hunters who ran our prey into the ground, running is what we are meant to do.

Not sure that's true. Look at the huge variety of body types on offer today. Some lean distance runners, some muscle-bound hulks. Of course, we're probably more flexible than many animals - apparently it's possible to walk down a white-tailed deer never mind run.

If you want to get fit sprinting is the running to do, steady state cardio is a mugs game.

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

Yeah, but if you're looking to get a bit of decent exercise in that's far too short a loop on a bike - unless you're a real porker you'll only just be warming up by that point.

Yeah, but if you're looking to get a bit of decent exercise in that's far too short a loop on a bike

Nope, it's very hilly. Good interval workout.

But I do sometimes run too. Usually when it's too late or something. It hurts though and not in a good way.

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

You need to get faster running then. Off-road on decent technical up and down stuff a bike is slower than running

10 miles and 400m of ascent in an hour and five minutes?

You up for a race? 🙂

I never said I was a good runner 😆

I know a few very good runners who could easily do it!

Edit: To be fair just working it out I wouldn't be that far behind running, it's only 1300ft climbing and 10 miles so prob 1 1/2 hrs, and I'd consider myself a very avg runner!

- Nice thing about it is how simple it is, no faffing with bikes, kit etc just trainers on and off you go.

It's like comparing a microwaved Greggs steak bake to a full on home made steak pie and all the trimmings.

Sure, it's easier, but by **** it's dull by comparison.

Sure, it's easier, but by **** it's dull by comparison

Granted some cyclist more so mtb'rs won't get it. Biking is all about bullshit i.e. I had the wrong tyre, wrong bike, etc etc.

No bull in running if you don't perform it's you and no excuse....which leads on to the type of people that run v bike.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't i.e. they will get a lift to the top as it means they don't have to work as hard. 😛

Another vote for Parkrun. Don't bother with the couch to 5K stuff, just go straight to park run and walk it fast if you have to just running the bits you feel comfortable on. And watch your knees, no need to knacker yourself out before you know what youre doing.

Biking is all about bullshit i.e. I had the wrong tyre, wrong bike, etc etc.

It might be for you.... not over here though.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't i.e. they will get a lift to the top as it means they don't have to work as hard.

I must hang out with different MTBers than you!

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't

terrible generalisation is terrible 😆

Seriously though, there are many more MTBers than the 'new golf' set. I love to test myself physically - I'm just not very good at distance running and never have been. It's always a struggle.

people do stuff for loads of different reasons though and running (for me) is mostly contemplative rather than "strictly" speed or competitive. I can run for hours really with only a bit of my mind on where I'm going, without caring about speed. I like than my body is able to do this, and I keep an interest in keeping in good enough shape to let me carry on doing it, but I don't care to "push" myself overly much.

I wish I could run for hours. I have to calm myself down before I set out because part of my brain is asking why the hell I am going to do this and anticipating the pain.

On the bike however I love really pushing myself on steep climbs and long rides, it's really satisfying.

Another thing to consider is some yoga or pilates (or at least find yourself a good set of core exercises) to improve your core stability.

A good (and easy) check to see what your stability is like is to stand in front of a mirror and stand on one leg (try both legs in turn obviously). If you are wobbling around all over the place your core is weak (and this is quite natural for people that spend lots of their time on a bike as the core isn't really worked that hard) which can lead to injuries. Someone with good core strength can stand on one leg and remain perfectly still.

I was always "better"* at the medium to long distance races - the short (< 6 miles following the FRA definitions) were just too fast and too close to my limit effort wise.

Comparing running and cycling is more like comparing an homemade steak pie and a sirloin steak. The Greggs steak bake would be darts 😆

*Actually I was always about a third of the way down the field no matter what distance. I did a scatter diagram once of a year's race results plotting percentage of winner's time against position. Apart from a few outliers I was usually around 150% of the winner's time and a third of the way down the field.

Someone with good [s]core strength[/s] [b]knee proprioception[/b] can stand on one leg and remain perfectly still.

Whilst 'core strength' in and of itself is clearly a *good* thing the ability to balance on one leg without wobble is more down to the stability of the knee joint - this can be enhanced with the use of balance/wobble boards and is frequently used in the rehab of knee injury.

Runners like pain and suffering most mtb'rs don't

Well MTB'ers do have a (possibly deserved) reputation for spending two thirds of their rides standing around eating kitkats interspersed with the odd bit of riding.

But in general, i find that a very small percentage of the population (be they runnerists, bikerists or gymbunnyists) actually like the pain and suffering, and most will 'claim' to be suffering, but their breathing and HR charts show that they've barely cracked open the door to the hurt locker - certainly a long way from clambering in and closing the door behind them.

That's what my local loop is for. Two brutal climbs, the rest normal riding.

But it's a valid point - MTBing is a pretty broad sport in terms of how it's approached. Lots of people hanging around a bike park/DH run all afternoon, chilling and sessioning. And that's fine. Likewise there are XC racers who know their lactate threshold in watts. And people who do SDW quadruples and all the rest of it. MTBing has always been a mix of extreme sport, endurance sport, fitness pursuit and outdoor pursuit - and each of us enjoys those aspects in varying amounts.

Of those, only the XC racers are comparable to the typical runner. In fact, running is more comparable to road cycling I think.

Whilst 'core strength' in and of itself is clearly a *good* thing the ability to balance on one leg without wobble is more down to the stability of the knee joint - this can be enhanced with the use of balance/wobble boards and is frequently used in the rehab of knee injury.

Is even that true? Ankle/foot comes into it as well - was part of my rehab after broken ankle. Of the core/ankle/knee I'm not convinced the knee is the prime contributor

I can go MTBing on my local loop in about 1h15 including prep, and get in some great technical climbs, a good descent, an absolute classic descent, and a ridge travers with spectacular views. Wouldn't be able to run that loop in the time

Very jealous. I've got a road loop I do from home that's the same sort of time - it's about the minimum it feels like getting out on a bike for. However, I can get the same impact from a run that takes less time - there's always more faffing with a bike even if all the kit is lined up on a shelf ready to go.

I've just stood on one leg, my knee ankle and foot moved around quite a bit, but I don't think I "engaged" my core at all.

That's true, running is faster.

But the two activities aren't really comparable, to me. My loop includes some great trails, whereas if I go for a run its basically suburban housing estates. I could run to the trails but that involves a pretty unpleasant narrow rat run lane and even then it's a bloody long run for me.

If you want to get fit sprinting is the running to do, steady state cardio is a mugs game.

That sounds like the type of generalisation that I would make and I salute you!
It is certainly true that "intervals" provide by far the most time efficient way to get faster, and Zatopek (who was in my opinion the greatest distance runner of all time) did nothing but intervals. Such as 40x400m in the morning then 40x200m in the afternoon etc etc. Most distance runners include longer runs at threshold pace as well as hill repeats etc but whether that is simply because intervals every day is hard work and boring!
As a mate of mine used to say, "intervals is training all the other stuff is just fluff"

See, this is also the sort of generalisation that I don't like, running isn't just about always going faster or racing. Sometimes it's just moving for the sake of it

Sometimes it's just moving for the sake of it

That would be walking...

Are running threads the new 'What Tyres?' threads?

As others have said, start slow, don't increase the pace / distance / intensity too quickly and if you manage to keep it up for a bit treat yourself to new shoes. You may find after 3 runs its not for you and you've wasted your money.

As for the whole Runners are harder than bikers thing, that's just BS. Any running club has its fair mix of casual and serious runners.

Are running threads the new 'What Tyres?' threads?

[img] ?[/img]

[b]TERREX X-KING SHOES[/b]
[i]Mountain-bike-inspired "tyres for your feet" directly moulded to upper for added stability; Moulded toe and heel caps; Continental™ Rubber for extraordinary grip[/i]

@surfer Zatopek was doing his training from a pretty high base so he didn't really need to put in huge amounts of "fluff" kilometres as he'd already done that. His training was aimed at going from 95% to 100% for which he needed speed work.

I'd a 10K fell run that I'd do from the house, there was roughly 400m of ascent in it. I'd got relatively unfit due to an injury so my times were in the 64min range. I began doing hill reps on the BW that runs past the house, just once a week. A couple of Km warm-up jog then as many reps of 300m on a 20% incline as I could manage then 1Km warm down.

After a couple of months my times had dropped to 60mins. Over the next month my time dropped to 58mins. Then one day I did 51mins! By the end of the summer my time was down to 49mins with a "slow time" of 50mins.

So, yes, intervals do work but you should do them for specific points not as a general workout.

I've just stood on one leg, my knee ankle and foot moved around quite a bit, but I don't think I "engaged" my core at all.

Anecdotal and I am sure many others will have different opinions/experiences but that is my experience - that lack of balance is a symptom of poor core strength and poor core strength contributes to the risk of injury.

Someone with good core strength can stand on one leg and remain perfectly still.

Surely anyone with a half-decent sense of balance can do that. I can and I've rarely paid any attention to core strength.

Standing on one leg with eyes closed is trickier but still manageable after a bit of practice.

i ought to run again. i got to 5k at a decent pace (i thought) quite easily.

its just so, so , so sodding boring.

just go run. the first run will hurt like mad, the ones after ( if you do every 4 days or so) will be fine (well i say fine - it`ll still get you puffing like a 40 a day smoker walking up stairs, but the aftermath wont hurt so much). regularity is key to less pain and a decent progression

fancy shoes are ok i guess but just run wot you brung to start.

I let my thoughts drift when I'm running and find it very relaxing - meditative, almost. Sometimes listen to podcasts but as often as not end up not paying attention to them anyway.

Well it's boring if you run on roads. Out in the hills on a nice bit of trail, expansive views, it still has the same aesthetics as riding singletrack all very rewarding.

Surely anyone with a half-decent sense of balance can do that.

http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/balance-your-way-to-stronger-body#1

Whilst 'core strength' in and of itself is clearly a *good* thing the ability to balance on one leg without wobble is more down to the stability of the knee joint - this can be enhanced with the use of balance/wobble boards and is frequently used in the rehab of knee injury.

Is even that true? Ankle/foot comes into it as well

Yep - google 'ACL/MCL knee injury proprioception wobble board'

Of course the ankle/foot comes into it ... and so does the core - the human body is a 'system of systems'

Stabilisation of the knee involves (but not exclusively) the hips, hamstrings, quadriceps, gluteus maximus and calves. If you do a one legged knee dip, these are the muscles used. Clearly if you have an ankle injury then the focus will be lower down the limb. Wobble/Balance boards often form part of physio recommended exercise for injury rehab for everything from the hip to the knee, to the ankle.

The yoga pose 'vrikshasana' or 'tree pose' engages these and more including the core abdomen muscles as your 'other leg' is placed 'off-balance'

That would be walking...

😀 moving quickly, then.