[Closed] socialism vs capitalism......

I quite like the UK's balance of capitalism with moderate socialist taxation and benefits.

Full socialism is unworkable in a global economy. Full capitalism just pisses on the poor.

The trouble with Socialism, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money...

[i]The trouble with Socialism, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money... [/i]

On the other hand Socialism works fine if you have Capitalists to pay the bill...

capitalism

we have arseholism - which is where you can keep taking out without putting ANYTHING in.

The only working case of socialism I've ever seen that was anything like justifiable was implemented at sailing club.
Option A - high membership fee, Option B - lower membership fee plus work 1 day for club,.... F - pretty minimal fee, several days work for club.

[[i]Nuts in May[/i]]

"But do you have a system? Is it tabulated?"

[/[i]Nuts in May[/i]]

The trouble with Capitalism, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money...

I dont know enough about either, but Socialism for sure.

The trouble with Socialism, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money...

and capitalism is the opposite ?

Socialism - works for Norway (best place to live in the world apparently).

Keep up Simon ;oP

The reailty in the UK is that we have neither, and the vast majority don't want either extreme. The fact is that there are good points on both sides of the equation as there are also bad. What we really need is consensus politics, which unfortunately is exactly what we won't get under the current electoral system, which is both unrepresentative and hands power to the establishment.

Personally I can't beleive that we are looking like electing the Etonian old Boys YaaHoo Society to be our represenatives. I can hardly think of any other human beings on the planet less representative of the average person in this country!!

socialism....help your fellow man. distribute wealth.

capitali$m... * your fellow (lower class) man in the * and sell his kids.

What dave says.
Capitalism, a nice system invented by noble to make peasant think they could climb up the social ladder.
Socialism won't work at a worldwide level because so far people are c0ck, they have the money=power in head and that is it (by people that is myself included).

Devout capitalist here. The socialist experiment has allowed the feeble to flourish and left us with a human race depleted of many of the qualities that allowed it to evolve to such a high level in the first place.

There's a very good argument for letting the weak, ****less, workshy and disabled starve to death so the human race becomes stronger.

Not a very palatable view, but look what modern optometrics has done to the world's eyesight. 1000 years ago, myopia was a very big hurdle to the day-to-day business of finding things like food and a mate, so the numbers of Magoos were self regulated.

Fast forward to the invention of the refractive glass lens and within a couple of centuries, the world is overrun with people that couldn't find their arse with a map unless they've got their bins on.

I tell ya, let 'em starve. It's the only way out of this mess.

There's a very good argument for letting the weak, ****less, workshy and disabled starve to death so the human race becomes stronger.

doesn't that describe the aristocracy too ?
However I vote for compassion over efficiency any day. It's no good having a strong race of sociopaths 🙁

Capitalism with a conscience. The conscience being Socialism. Find it annoying that people think it has to be one or the other.

Mix it up.

To have a socialist(ish) society everyone who can contribute has to contribute - too many here have an ingrained reluctance to contribute.

Full capitalism just pisses on the poor.

And where the hell have you seen "full capitalism" ?

Name the country where everything is left to the market, the state never interferes, and the economy just runs on autopilot ?

Name me the country which has no Chancellor of the Exchequer or finance minister because their job isn't required, as economy looks after itself and the market always knows best ?

There is [i][b]no such thing[/b][/i] as "full capitalism".

Just some countries are less socialist than others.

You need poor people to dig roads and shovel crap for you otherwise a lot of very rich people are very quickly going to find themselves up to their knees in shit. Actually I've answered that one haven't I? Capitalism works, if you re-introduce slavery.

To have a socialist(ish) society everyone who can contribute has to contribute - too many here have an ingrained reluctance to contribute.

Are you talking about the work dodgers, or the wealthy employing accountants to tax dodge? Both I presume.

greater equality amongst people

I'd prefer equality of opportunity so that anyone who wants to can make the best of themselves. People are not equal, get used to it

[i]Name me the country which has no Chancellor of the Exchequer or finance minister because their job isn't required, as economy looks after itself and the market always knows best ?[/i]

Channel Islands?

Devout capitalist here. The socialist experiment has allowed the feeble to flourish and left us with a human race depleted of many of the qualities that allowed it to evolve to such a high level in the first place.

There's a very good argument for letting the weak, ****less, workshy and disabled starve to death so the human race becomes stronger.

Do you apply this argument to your own family/friends?

Again:

NORWAY

Capitalism works, if you re-introduce slavery.

Not quite slavery, but I do think this country has gone back to a period similar to the industrial revolution before the unions.

'd prefer equality of opportunity so that anyone who wants to can make the best of themselves. People are not equal, get used to it

I'd agree with that, unfortunately its now those who have that are preventing those who have not from doing so.

[i]I'd prefer equality of opportunity so that anyone who wants to can make the best of themselves. People are not equal, get used to it.[/i]

And people can't have equality of opportunity. Get used to that too 🙂

There is no such thing as "full capitalism".
Just some countries are less socialist than others.

Of course not, which kind of indicates the system is flawed.

IMO the US takes capitalism a bit too far (see New Orleans, healthcare etc)

I'd prefer equality of opportunity so that anyone who wants to can make the best of themselves.

let's start with equality of opportunity to eat

Socialism - works for Norway (best place to live in the world apparently).

In fact, all the Scandinavian countries seem to be successful at a more planned economy than the UK, with high taxation, high levels of welfare, excellent education, whilst allowing private business to flourish.

Socialism vs capitalism isn't a binary choice - it's a continuum. I'd like to see us more towards the Scandinavian end than (say) the USA at the other.

Those in favour of unchecked capitalism are welcome to move to the DR Congo.

Channel Islands?

No, the Channel Islands have finance ministers.

In every capitalist country, the most important minister after the prime minister, is the finance minister.

Because controlling the economy, is the most important job for any government to do in any capitalist country.

It cannot be left to the market.

[i]Name the country where everything is left to the market, the state never interferes, and the economy just runs on autopilot ?[/i]

Somalia. 🙂

doesn't Norway finance its generous social system through the sale of oil?

Are you talking about the work dodgers, or the wealthy employing accountants to tax dodge? Both I presume.

Well sort of though I'm not sure it's really a bad thing to try to pay as little tax as possible as long as it's legal - there are moral gray areas though. Socialism relies on the majority wanting to do what's best for society as a whole whereas capitalism assumes people are mostly selfish - so maybe we get the system we deserve?

It cannot be left to the market.

should read "meerkat"...

they're useless economists and just bury stuff and stand around showing off their impressive testicles 🙁

Somalia is a failed state without effective government. Even I, as a socialist, wouldn't want to offer Somalia as an example of 'full capitalism'.

doesn't Norway finance its generous social system through the sale of oil?

Didn't we also have some oil (and spent all the money we got from it)?

wouldn't want to offer Somalia as an example of 'full capitalism'.

But surely it is - raw market forces are completely unchecked by any state intervention. The strongest/richest wins - ultimate capitalism.

yeah, but on fast cars and champagne.... loadsa money!!!!!!!

Didn't we also have some oil (and spent all the money we got from it)?

But we're better off now than we were in the late 70s - give or take the odd credit crunch....

[i]letting the weak, ****less, workshy and disabled starve to death[/i]

Is he [u]definitely[/u] not brilliant and witty photocopying entrepreneur Adam_G?

To the utter w**nker who reckons that 'the socialist experiment' has bred a weak and enfeebled population etc. Unless I'm very much mistaken there was a project fairly recently to reverse the tendency of welfarism and redistribution to allow those less than perfect specimens to stop being a burden on wealth creation. But things must be looking up for you and your kind...you've got a special party to vote for who take their cue from the experiment alluded to above. You are beneath contempt.

Anarcho-capitalism...

Free to make money in any way you see fit, as long as you pay taxes on it.

[i]Is he definitely not brilliant and witty photocopying entrepreneur Adam_G?[/i]

🙂

Hey Robespew how do you cope with all that hatred spewing from the pores of your skin? You must create a puddle wherever you stand...

I'm curious, did the "project" you speak of yield any results?

Definitely one of the most interesting hate fueled left wing rants I've read on STW for a while, probably beats Ernie-Che-Lynch, TJ and even the hallowed RudeBOY.

EDIT: I shouldn't have used the term left wing, sorry.

how do you cope with all that hatred spewing from the pores of your skin

you can have contempt for an idea without hatred for its proponents

How strange that the best place to live in the world (Norway which I love) has managed to become the best place to live in the world by mostly coalition governments since WWII

All the parties in this country say it won't work.

I think I'm going to look for a job in Norway.

enfht - Member

Hey Robespew how do you cope with all that hatred spewing from the pores of your skin? You must create a puddle wherever you stand...

LOL ! Yeah, because [u]you[/u] wouldn't use emotive language, would you enfht ?!!! 😀

So Robespierre called Forked Souls an "utter w**nker" and said "You are beneath contempt" ........ and that represents a "hate fueled left wing rant" ?

You are a clown enfht ................. get a grip of yourself mate

With a name like Robespierre one might not expect him to have much sympathy for the rich...

Hey Ernie I'm still waiting.....for the third time, was your hero Che a terrorist?

Ahh good to see this potentially interesting afternoon debate dissolve into a slagging match so quickly. 🙄

All capitalists are evil power hungry sociopaths.
All socialists are naive and very bad at maths.

[i]*throws a pie*[/i]

Ahh good to see this potentially interesting debate

now who's delusional ?

*throws a pie*

AND wasteful 🙁

You sound surprised that someone has taken the STW eugenics enthusiast to task, enfht? No problem with being called left wing cos that's what I am. Usually ignore the low level right wing mumble from this forum but did you read the post? Bloke's just plain ignorant...we are born helpless, sunk in our nursling dependency...even the kind of superman who regards anything less than physical perfection as a trait to be 'removed'. We depend upon kinship structures for our survival, and these go beyond the calculus of self-interest and self-agrandisment that form the narrow, conservative notion of 'human nature' that routinely gets trotted out as a repudiation of socialism...whateve socialism means now.

I heard Dawkins (for the first time) on the telly the other night suggesting we have a gene for kindness. Kinda like squirrels randomly burying nuts everywhere, if people are habitually kind they're likely to get it back too :o)

Hey Ernie I'm still waiting....

Well you'll be waiting a long time if you think I'm going to waste my time trying to have a serious discussion with you, after the bollox you wrote on the other thread.

.

.

How's that for a "hate fueled left wing rant" enfht ? Eh ?

Did you feel all that hatred spewing from the pores of my skin? I must create a puddle wherever I stand...

LOL ! 😀

I am with robespierre...
Now where the fouck is my guillotine...

Since the beginning of the welfare state post 2nd world war we have become a broadly centralist society.

I believe however our expectations cannot be met as society stands now.

As cold as its sounds social benefits cost, so who creates this wealth and how should it be distributed.

Going back to the days when "horse tablets" were taken because you could not afford a doctor I am glad are a thing of the past.

However expectation without working for the common good of society I feel is becoming the norm.

I like to think I am a practical socialist, I run my own company, provide good well paid employment, realise that there is a need in society to support others.

We need a balance of both

I must create a puddle wherever I stand...

Sorry sorry sorry
Igmc

[cough] Ernie - RB is trying to get hold of you. [/cough]

as to the "discussion above" - being an old style wet I'm out, as bizarrely I'm more left wing than all of the current models.

Ah, glad its all calmed down! I only logged on to see if anyone is using the 2010 rev race maxle's and suddenly I'm not in Kansas anymore.

It's funny that everyone admires the Scandinavian model but I can't see a party getting elected on a promise to raise taxes to >50% on everything you earn, 25% VAT on everything you buy and 180% on cars (not to mention the other endless list of taxes) that is required to pay for the state care that we get in Scandinavia.

Do any of you really think for a minute that you'd vote for a party that wanted to effectivelu double your tax burdon?

BTW Norway doesn't pay for their welfare from oil revenue, it is primarily tax income like the rest of the Nordics.

Do any of you really think for a minute that you'd vote for a party that wanted to effectivelu double your tax burdon?

I would if I thought they would spend it effectively.

Can't pretend to be an expert on this but aren't the wages in Scandinavian countries quite high, which in turn allows a larger tax take than the European norm without diminishing consumer spending? Still appalled at the price of beer in Sweden though...seems like utopia remains as tantalisinly out of reach as ever.

Wages are somewhat higher, but so is the cost of living. All in all I think we have less spending power but I don't have th figures to hand to confirm this (I'll check)
When I moved here I got a 20% pay increase (it was a promotion of sorts as well) and my net income fell by 15%. Cost of living is about 20% higher than the UK in my experience.

oddjob - Member

If the taxes are so high, why does it still have one of the highest standards of living in the world?

I notice that Denmark is 16th on the list and Sweden 7th. How does taxation differ between the countries?

I just checked here and I can see Denmark is 16th and UK is 19th so not a big difference

Well it made me chuckle 😀
I didn't want a discussion just a yey or neh but if you feel it would take more than a one-worded answer then you've answered the question, namely "yes he was but rant rant rant" 😉

So, who's brave enough to clarify exactly what RB got up to at the BBB???

So far I've established he was drunk, naked, in the shower area, late at night, abusing mixed groups of stw'ers. but what else went on????

So, who's brave enough to clarify exactly what RB got up to at the BBB???

Denmark is the highest taxed in the world and Sweden second. Danmark overtook them last year.

What is standard of living defined as?
We have good health care, education, care for the elderly etc. We don't have as many super rich people as far as I can see and in general a lower disposable income. There are a lot of people in Denmark who live a very frugal life, on a global scale they are well off, they have what they need, but there is not much money for luxury items like £3k mountain bikes...
I'm not complaining about it, it is nice here (dull but that's another story) but there is a massive difference in attitude towards tax and the state compared with the UK

List I looked at puts Sweden 15th

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Norway is up at 3 but that is probably becuase they are not in the EU and it saves them a lot of money that they are getting from oil

I am but the BBB etiquette is that the only one that can speak about it is RB.

spoil sport

Anyhoo what about STW etiquette? (ie get stuck in)

aP - Member

[cough] Ernie - RB is trying to get hold of you. [/cough]

Done. I believe YGM aP

.

enfht - Member

I didn't want a discussion just a yey or neh but if you feel it would take more than a one-worded answer

Well if you're happy with "more than a one-worded answer", how about * off * ?

HTH

That's actually 3 words Che-Ernie...

Do you dream of a Marxist Revolution in the UK as well?

oddjob - Member

I think you might be looking at a different list. Norway made the news yesterday as the 'Best place to live', I assume because it happened recently.

I've been looking a the indeces for the national income equality (the Gini coefficient) in an attempt to find out more about a measure of the standard of living. It's a list from 2005, but Denmark comes right at the top (if there is a top) i.e. there is a smaller gap between what the highest and lowest earners are paid. Norway was also quite high on the list as is Sweden. The UK is quite a long way down.

Do you feel that Denmark is a 'fairer' society?

Capitalism is the exploitation of the many by the few

Socialism is the opposite

quote by some French bloke

(or something like that..........)

quote by some French bloke

Careful, didn't De Gaulle believe that he liberated France from the Nazis?

GDP per capita is not the same as standard of living!

Do you feel that Denmark is a 'fairer' society?

At least they stick up for their cartoonists.

GDP per capita is not the same as standard of living!

Which in turn isn't the same as [i]quality[/i] of life.

You need poor people to dig roads and shovel crap for you otherwise a lot of very rich people are very quickly going to find themselves up to their knees in shit. Actually I've answered that one haven't I? Capitalism works, if you re-introduce slavery.

you have just described the system in saudi arabia

you have just described the system in saudi arabia

Which in turn, keeps our premiership clubs out of administration and the prospect of minus 10 points. Thank the bejesus for oil.