[Closed] socialism vs capitalism......

noteeth = Hagar The Horrible!

I knew it!

Seems that the choice was 'do you want to live in a nice place but have little disposeable income?' or 'do you want to live in a sh*thole but have lots of cash to spend on toys?

Scandinavia chose option 1, UK chose 2.

Iceland were brought down by a bad marketing strategy IMO

How was Kerry Katona involved in Iceland's marketing strategy Stoner ? ......... forgive me, I don't read the tabloids.

she defected to the Columbians.

forgive me, I don't read the tabloids

Isn't the Morning Star a tabloid?

Norway, Iceland, what's the difference between one bunch of suicidal alcoholics and another? 🙂

Robespierre - Member

To the utter w**nker who reckons that 'the socialist experiment' has bred a weak and enfeebled population etc. [...] You are beneath contempt.

Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such. 🙄

You sound surprised that someone has taken the STW eugenics enthusiast to task, enfht? No problem with being called left wing cos that's what I am. Usually ignore the low level right wing mumble from this forum but did you read the post? Bloke's just plain ignorant...we are born helpless, sunk in.... Sssssssshhhhhhhhccccccccwwwwwwsssssscccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I'm sorry, that's just white noise.

hmm socialism worked well for the russians, is working well for the cubans and the north koreans.
Ernie, you're being very balanced for a change - turning over a new leaf? 😀
BTW, Che was bessies with Castro. They say you can judge a lot by the company a man keeps.

I'm sorry, that's just white noise.

Woah there Adam... I mean Forking. I think the latest leaflets for the village fete just rolled off the presses... 🙂

There are some very strange folk round here...

Indeed. Why would anyone want to re-join an internet discussion forum that they have been repeatedly banned from, and start spouting the same ridiculous invective that got them into trouble in the first place? 😕

Why would anyone want to re-join an internet discussion forum that they have been repeatedly banned from, and start spouting the same ridiculous invective that got them into trouble in the first place?

RudeBoy's back?! 😮

Ernie, you're being very balanced for a change - turning over a new leaf?

You must be confusing me with someone else.

I don't take a balanced view on anything - it's all from a class-conscious socialist perspective.

And I don't care very much for your accusation that I've become some sort wishy-washy guardian reading, liberal type. If that's what you're suggesting ......

"socialist worker" only for you i supose.

Cuba - works very well - by most things better than the USA despite the illegal blockade.

More doctors per head of population, lower infant mortality, higher life expectancy for starters.

The USSR was a totalitarian regime not socialist.

RudeBoy's back?!

No, think of his opposite number in the pantheon of STW must-get-thread-to-100-posts twonkery. 🙂

backhander - Member

"socialist worker" only for you i supose.

You're bang out of order mate.

First you accuse me of being a Guardian reader. And now you accuse me of being a Trot. Not very nice.

Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?

Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?

No

There are some very strange folk round here...

Thats no way to speak about enfht...should be much more rude.

Oh, you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

Oh, you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

Let me guess. Your insult education extended no further than GCSE level... 🙄

Well i live in Norway. I moved here from Switzerland. Yes the taxes are high here and the cost of living (food, booze and cars) is high. But my salary is excellent and the standard of living here is brilliant and i think i agree with the report - Norway is a great place to live - as long as you dont wanna go out and get pissed in the pub every night. BTW Norway´s oil money is placed into a pension scheme to enable the wealth to benefit future generations of little viking pillagers.

Sorry TJ, but the US is 5th place in the quality of life scale, cuba is 108th (alongside mongolia and senegal). You're wrong about this one mate. It may be sunny but for its citizens, it's a sh1thole.

"There are some very strange folk round here..."

you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

LOL !

Your insult education extended no further than GCSE level...

I bet you're highly educated Forked Souls. Maybe as [i]even[/i] as highly educated as AdamG.
Well I [i]say[/i] as highly educated as AdamG, he at least, reckoned he was.

Personally, I always thought he was probably an underachiever who was constantly berated as a child by parents who considered him to have been something of a disappointment to them. He probably had an older brother who was cleverer than him. AdamG certainly felt the need to remind everyone on here just how intelligent he was. He was banned you know. For being a tw4t I believe. Which is a bit ironic really .......

Sorry, I can't remember why I was talking about AdamG............ oh yeah, he also recognised the importance of good education. So yeah, *thumbs up* for good education.

Name me the country which has no Chancellor of the Exchequer or finance minister because their job isn't required, as economy looks after itself and the market always knows best ?

There is no such thing as "full capitalism".

Because controlling the economy, is the most important job for any government to do in any capitalist country.

Well you'll be waiting a long time if you think I'm going to waste my time trying to have a serious discussion with you, after the bollox you wrote on the other thread.

Backhander - my point is its all about what you measure. In cuba you don't die of being too poor to afford healthcare. In the USA people do all the time.

mavisto - Member

"Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?"

No

Thank you mavisto. I was starting to ask myself 'what could I have said' 😐

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[i]"the US is 5th place in the quality of life scale, cuba is 108th"[/i]

I couldn't find either of those countries in the 'quality of life scale' :

[url= http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-practice-news-columns/bond-beyond/quality-of-life-scale.aspx ]Quality of Life Scale[/url]

Although TJ [i]is[/i] quite wrong in suggesting that the USSR was fundamentally different to Cuba.

Do you even read your own posts?

Yeah I do Fatty. But you obviously don't read my posts. I said that you can't have a "fully capitalist" country.
I didn't say that there were no capitalist countries. Go back and read them again.

If we were communist he wouldn't be fat, less fortunate people would have eaten half his food.

[i]In cuba you don't die of being too poor to afford healthcare[/i]

Mmm, not totally convinced by that. You might not die as obviously, but the Cuban healthcare system (while admittedly far better than many 3rd world countries) still sees plenty of folk die who can't afford proper treatment. If Castro and his cronies get ill you can be sure they'll get far superior treatment to your average Cuban farmer.

Oh Mr Eugenics you excel yourself! 'Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such' after I've said that you are beneath comtempt...the sheer grace and poise of your retort...the distance from the school playground! What an advertisement for the master race you are.

Oh Mr Eugenics you excel yourself! 'Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such' after I've said that you are beneath comtempt...the sheer grace and poise of your retort...

You should take a bit more care when trying to deliver insults, rather than rolling out a load of stock clichés you've heard used by greater minds. 🙄

Mmm, not totally convinced by that. You might not die as obviously, but the Cuban healthcare system (while admittedly far better than many 3rd world countries) still sees plenty of folk die who can't afford proper treatment.

According to a study published in the medical journal 'The Lancet' [i][b]one million people have died[/b][/i] as a result of the collapse of socialism (communism to you probably) in Eastern Europe. This is as a direct result of the introduction Capitalism.

I suspect that is probably a conservative figure, and I think the study might be a couple of years old now, so the true figure is probably a bit more than that. One million is a lot. That's one million people who have been robbed of the most fundamental basic human right of all - the right to life. Which kinda of denies all their other basic human rights don't it ?

[url= http://news.softpedia.com/news/Privatization-Killed-a-Million-People-in-Eastern-Europe-102173.shtml ]Privatization Killed a Million People in Eastern Europe[/url]

The political blindness shown by some of the posters on this forum is truely disturbing. Oblivious to the good their percieved opposition has done and completely blinkered to the damage their own party has done.

[slight diversion]

I have not read the Lancet article, but the precis of it you link suggests rather that the increases in mortality rates are due to the stress and dislocation of changing one economic system for another and in particular to sudden changes in the way the labour market is organised.

I wonder therefore whether it says anything about capitalism really, or whether we might expect a similar spike in death rates if the UK were to be converted very rapidly into a socialist economy with radical redistribution of wealth and economic planning to create full employment?

Would huge numbers of us actually die early as a result the stress of making the adjustment?

Ernie, you could argue that equally socialism (the failure of) killed these people.
Ernie is quite correct, on the scale of economics all countries fall somewhere between free market and centrally controlled. No country is a perfect example of either.
I like the thought of socialism (it's nice and fluffy), but don't think it could ever work because of one reason; greed. Those in control will always have the most and this fundamentally ruins the whole theory (IMHO).
Classes are not something that impact my day to day. If someones a ****, I tell them "you're a ****". I don't care for their family name.

[img] [/img]

Comrades... one day, all these issues will be sorted out on one mighty big STW group ride. 😈

(Splendid [i]Dirt Rag[/i] cover, as ever. Props to Kevin Nierman).

What an amusing thread.

This is my take on the subject...

Without a degree of Capitalism in the UK, we wouldn't have such fancy bikes to spend our free time on.

Without a degree of Socialism in the UK, we wouldn't have free health care to patch us up after we've fallen off of them.

The majority of people on this forum benefit from Capitalism in more ways than they would like to admit, and benefit from Socialist policies in more ways than they would care to realise.

Can we start talking about bikes again because quite frankly, if none of us are politicians who have the power to change they way we live, all of this is just wasteful, opinionated wind and guff which is achieving nothing apart from p*ssing each other off.

I have not read the Lancet article...........

I did, but that was a while back. A very quick search threw that link. Yes you could put a spin on it which Mandelson himself would be proud of.

But the fact is that hundreds of thousands have died as a direct result of the collapse of socialism. According to the Lancet study a million people would not have died if this had not happened. I'm not really convinced by the suggestion that the [i]shock[/i] was the cause of all the problems - such as the collapse of life expectancies.

Surely we should be expecting [i]more[/i] people to be alive as a result of a superior economic system. The new problems which these countries are now experiencing are mostly on going and permanent....unemployment for example.

I like the thought of socialism (it's nice and fluffy), but don't think it could ever work because of one reason; greed.

You don't understand socialism (if you'll pardon me for saying so) It's not "nice and fluffy", and it recognises personal greed : "[i]To each according to their work[/i]" is the socialist mantra.

Can we start talking about bikes again because quite frankly, if none of us are politicians who have the power to change they way we live, all of this is just wasteful, opinionated wind and guff

contrariwise, we should be able to influence politicians if democracy has any meaning, and bikes are intrinsically dull, so bring it on :o)

which is achieving nothing apart from p*ssing each other off.

can there be a higher vocation ?

: "To each according to their work" is the socialist mantra.

"to each according to their need, from each according to their ability"

Classes are not something that impact my day to day. If someones a *, I tell them "you're a *". I don't care for their family name.

Indeed. That explains a lot.

simonfbarnes - Member

: "To each according to their work" is the socialist mantra.

"to each according to their need, from each according to their ability"

No it isn't.

I do know the difference between Communism and Socialism. Even if you don't.

Go and check Barnes.

Ernie - indeed, you could argue that hundreds of thousands died as a direct result of the collapse of Socialism in Russia

However of course, you could point towards the estimated seven million Ukranians who died in the formation of the great socialist paradise through collectivisation of farms by forcible means, though I'm sure you'd prefer to gloss over that aspect of things wouldnt you?

There you are Ratty ! ...............where you been mate ?

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......yes, of course. "You could argue....."