Junky seen earlier;
That is the scene I was thinking of tbh well played 😆
THM diplomacy and counsellings loss is our gain
Personally, I have not had time to digest the Smith report, however I have been disappointed on the tone from the final weeks of the referendum until now by all sides.
A panicked pledge was made late on that has left most Westminster politicians running about chasing their arses as well as many yes voters hoping it all goes pear shaped.
Debate on constitutional reform I feel should have been discussed sooner and been more inclusive of the whole UK, although perhaps the referendum was what was required to bring it to discussion. Now we have the 'pledge' separate from rUK devolution, which is as it should be, however I can understand but don't like to see either a simmering resentment in England/Wales/NI or a willful hope for failure in Scotland.
I know the last thread got heated, however a more reasoned tone should prevail now, but does not seem to be happening.
Wise words and insightful but nuanced debate seems unlikely on here.
The independence referendum was democracy at it's best, comments about unilaterally declaring independence do no one any favours. People need to respect the vote so that the whole of the UK can move on. The UK needs a shake up from the top to the bottom. The north-south divide does not start at the Scottish border it starts at the Watford gap. Devolution to the regions is a must!
epicsteve - Member
Aye - but you're surely not suggesting they all voted no?
97.3% of those that voted did.POSTED 40 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
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I made it up - just like some of the other stats quoted here.
SNP is pushing for independence in all but name. The scarecrow leader was saying in parliament 'I want'. What about the majority voters who voted no? Again Salmon saying 'we lost but we can still declare independence' post vote. Do they believe in democracy or arrogantly believe no's only voted no if they all got completr control?
The leader of the SNP is not representing people who either voted yes or no, she is representing the voters who voted the SNP into power in Scotland. How hard is that to understand?.
2011 wasnt it? Pretty hard for one of us. Shes pushing for the max from where I see it. Calm yerself laddie. Lets wait for their next election to see the turnout.
Shes pushing for the max from where I see it. Calm yerself laddie. Lets wait for their next election to see the turnout.
It'll be interesting. Normally votes turn back to Labour in the general election, as it's as much about an anti-Tory vote as anything else. The polls are indicating that might not happen this time but we'll have to wait and see. Labour is in even more of a mess in Scotland that it is in the rest of the UK.
Hora has more chance of a sensible post than labour have of regaining power in Scotland.
Hora has more chance of a sensible post than labour have of regaining power in Scotland.
True, but they might still get the majority of the seats in Scotland in the general election.
epicsteve - Member
"Hora has more chance of a sensible post than labour have of regaining power in Scotland."
True, but they might still get the majority of the seats in Scotland in the general election.
At which point the independence movement may start putting pressure on the SNP majority Scottish parliament to declare independence.
Take a look at Iceland for an example. The people en masse sacked the parliament and re-established their govt. That could happen in Scotland.
That's if Westminster dodges and weaves over the issue of "more powers" as we expect them to.
The big master stroke Cameron could do now is to ensure that Devo Max happens, and in a stroke he cripples Labour for a generation, and puts independence on the back burner until the UK exits the EU.
epicsteve - MemberTrue, but they might still get the majority of the seats in Scotland in the general election.
They might... But the last polling I saw has the SNP taking 40 seats, labour 16, the tories outnumbering the pandas by 1 and the lib dems getting completely wiped out. So it'd be a heck of a comeback
the tories outnumbering the pandas by 1
The pandas have a much greater chance of increasing their Scottish population than the Tories so not a fair comparison.
Mon the pandas!
The third city in the uk doesn't want to be in it.
Leeds wants to declare UDI?!?!?! Crikey, I must have missed that in my Russia Today news feed.
The north-south divide does not start at the Scottish border it starts at the Watford gap.
+1
The nation state is a thing of the past. The Yes campaign should grasp that fact and stop trying to force Scotland back into the 20th century.
Glasgow being the third city of the UK is not based on population alone. There is no official second city of the UK, pre WW1 this was largely accepted as being Glasgow (2nd city of the empire) which was overtaken by Birmingham around WW1, hence pushing Glasgow into third place. This status is based on mixture of population, influence, economic and cultural contribution amongst others.
Manchester has a fair shout, but Leeds? My arse!
bearGrease - Member
"The north-south divide does not start at the Scottish border it starts at the Watford gap."
+1The nation state is a thing of the past. The Yes campaign should grasp that fact and stop trying to force Scotland back into the 20th century.
If we're talking about old-fashioned stuff, a parliamentary system with a superior unelected upper house and a monarch at the top, is far more a thing of the past, and definitely not democratic.
The independence movement is more about democracy than nationalism. It is very much an amorphous people's movement and not a monolithic thing that can be directed.
If we accept that the problem starts at the Watford gap, it raises the question of what are you doing about it in your part of the country?
From our perspective, it looks like you are swinging to an even more right wing version of what we are trying to get away from, so there doesn't seem much prospect of a common cause.
I get why the pain is so harsh. Facts, truth and logic aside, yS had everything aligned for an easy win. And yet the most astute politician in the uk (no, really) misses the open goal.
I looked at the level of pro-independence support at the beginning of the campaign, the level at the end of the campaign, and the concessions made by Westminster. I concluded that the Yes campaign was extremely effective.
As an outsider I was very surpirsed how easily the Yes voters were swayed by a few rapidly rushed promises from Westminster.
Suggests to me it wasn't really a very committed vote if it was so cheaply bought?
hora - Member2011 wasnt it? Pretty hard for one of us. Shes pushing for the max from where I see it. Calm yerself laddie. Lets wait for their next election to see the turnout.
Posted 12 hours ago #
And what do YOU think the results of the next election are going to be?
I like the change in tone of the colonial wannabies on this thread,you know; how we should give up and tug the forelock,how it was folly to offer a late vague Devo Max(once the no vote had scraped through) Have you seen/looked at how the political landscape is changing up here? Shouldn't be long before Westminster is again making statements about currency sharing.
Actually,I see J-Y is refuting THM's statements with facts again. Shouldn't be long before he is calling J-Y a troll again for providing hard evidence that is contrary to his view.
Must be hard for you all,your Government managed to win the battle,but at what cost?
Must be hard for you all,your Government managed to win the battle,but at what cost?
At an extremely high cost indeed. Do you think the majority of English voters give 2 shits about devolution? Na, it's the scots who asked for this and it's us who are now divided into two groups as a result.
What concerns me now is the lack of uncertainty in Scotland's future-it can only lead to a lack of investment which in turn affects every single one of us living in Scotland.
hilldodger - Member
As an outsider I was very surpirsed how easily the Yes voters were swayed by a few rapidly rushed promises from Westminster.
Suggests to me it wasn't really a very committed vote if it was so cheaply bought?
No, it just shows that there was far more support for devolution than outright independence.
Which is why the govt didn't allow devolution as a choice in the referendum. Then in a last minute panic, they offered it, and people who believed them voted No in the expectation that the promise would be delivered.
That's why it is important that the govt delivers proper devolution, because the next time round no-one will believe them.
eat_more_cheese - Member
...What concerns me now is the lack of uncertainty in Scotland's future-it can only lead to a lack of investment which in turn affects every single one of us living in Scotland.
Yes, it's a worry. This whole get out of Europe movement is extremely unsettling for business and is bound to affect investment.
The best tactic is to invest in Scotland now, because when England leaves the EU, Scottish independence will occur, and you will then still be able to trade with the EU.
As an outsider I was very surpirsed how easily the Yes voters were swayed by a few rapidly rushed promises from Westminster.
Suggests to me it wasn't really a very committed vote if it was so cheaply bought?
Well to be a Yes voter you would have to had actually voted Yes so how exactly were Yes voters easily swayed?
The best tactic is to invest in Scotland now, because when England leaves the EU, Scottish independence will occur, and you will then still be able to trade with the EU.
You have to smile at the sensitivities that the Scots have to UK being equated with England, and yet seem happy to regularly ignore Wales and the other parts of the UK.
Narrow, nationalistic-centric? Me pal.......? Perhaps McFly were right all along!!
Two urban centres will be dominating the politics of the whole country soon....representative, me pal?
Yes, it's a worry. This whole get out of Europe movement is extremely unsettling for business and is bound to affect investment.The best tactic is to invest in Scotland now, because when England leaves the EU, Scottish independence will occur, and you will then still be able to trade with the EU.
Testify!
😀
Unfortunately for the No camp a 55:45 divide, while a clear win, didn't deliver anything like enough of a margin for the matter to be totally put to bed. The Smith report itself is insisting that 67% is required for something as important as a consitutional question, so given the No campaign didn't come anywhere near that then it's not surprising that many think there could be another referendum with the next 10-20 years - especially given the likelyhood of political turmoil across the UK in the next few years.
Why not turn it around and give Glasgow independence from the UK. Lets face it they don't like the UK (based on their voting at least) and the rest of the UK don't like them, so everyone's a winner 😆
teamhurtmore - Member
You have to smile at the sensitivities that the Scots have to UK being equated with England, and yet seem happy to regularly ignore Wales and the other parts of the UK...
Clutching at straws mate. I didn't mention Wales or NI because I haven't seen anything about them wanting out of EU.
Maybe we'll even do a rUK with them while England sails off to oblivion in its make believe leaky imperial boat. 🙂
But on a more serious note, eat_more_cheese raised quite a valid point about uncertainty. Scotland is a provincial market, so its separation from the Uk was unlikely to have serious longterm effects on investment here, especially as the reality was that we would have remained in or re-entered the EU.
But the UK moving out of the EU, is much more serious. For companies wanting an English speaking base with access to EU markets, an non EU UK would be very unattractive.
Objectively the answer right now would be to not invest in the UK at all (including Scotland 🙁 ), and base the business in Eire. It has an open border with NI, so it allows a bet each way. I would be surprised if the Irish are not playing this card right now.
We live in uncertain times. "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold".
Gregor Townsend would be proud of such a sidestep. Don't worry our friends in Wales are used to it by now and the rest of us understand the anti-English driver (excuse for all ills).
Dragon good idea - independent states of Glasgow and Dundee, and rUK - including Wales, N Ireland etc... Everyone's a winner.
Re-entering the EU - the old automatic assumption!!! Plus ca change.....
eat_more_cheese - MemberWhat concerns me now is the lack of uncertainty in Scotland's future-it can only lead to a lack of investment which in turn affects every single one of us living in Scotland.
No, remember only lack of certainty over independence is damaging to the economy. Lack of certainty over europe is absolutely [i]fine. [/i]
tactical votes, not every SNP voter voted yes, but also not every non SNP voted no...teamhurtmore - Member
Funny how that argument only seems to work one way?Why did so many SNP voters vote NO?
Anyhow, if people think this is going to go away, they are kidding themselves.
tbh i'd like to see the "yes" movement widen into wales and northern england, and further if possible.
It's interesting that the enlightenment spread from scotland to the rest of the uk. lot of political thinking going on up here these days.
far as I see it's the whole argument isn't particularly about independence but it's more about moving politics onto something better.. i'm still waiting to see the rumblings for more democracy from elsewhere in the UK.
Ultimately that's what will split the UK imo, it's a case of whether rUK wakes up to more democracy or sticks with the status quo..
The independence movement is more about democracy than nationalism. It is very much an amorphous people's movement and not a monolithic thing that can be directed.
Utter BS. It's SNP ideology pinned to any policies they fancy that week.
If we accept that the problem starts at the Watford gap, it raises the question of what are you doing about it in your part of the country?
I voted No in my part of the country. Like another 2,001,925 Scots.
From our perspective, it looks like you are swinging to an even more right wing version of what we are trying to get away from, so there doesn't seem much prospect of a common cause.
And this rather betrays your prejudice that anyone against Scottish separatism [b]must[/b] be a an English tory.
Do you really think two million Scottish tories came out of the woodwork and stole your referendum?
You missed the point as it related to rUK and Scotland finding a common purpose and they are clearly saying that rUK is swinging towards UKIP/ the right and scotland is rejecting this and being more left wing. They were not commenting on Scotland no voters at all.No tsure why you think they were tbh. Given there are more UKIP mp's in england than Tory ones in Scotland it seems a reasonable point to make
bearGrease - Member
"The independence movement is more about democracy than nationalism. It is very much an amorphous people's movement and not a monolithic thing that can be directed."Utter BS. It's SNP ideology pinned to any policies they fancy that week.
So the LibDems for Independence, Labour for Independence, the Green party, RIC, Common Weal, and Wealthy Nation to name a few nonSNP political groups are actually SNP?
Dream on.
"From our perspective, it looks like you are swinging to an even more right wing version of what we are trying to get away from, so there doesn't seem much prospect of a common cause."And this rather betrays your prejudice that anyone against Scottish separatism must be a an English tory.
I don't know how you extrapolated prejudice from that. I specified the word perspective.
A perspective I might add that for those of us not resident in England, can only be obtained from the mainstream media.
So, does that mean you agree with us that the media are telling us lies?
There is no swing to the right. Current projections show a hung parliament with Labour requiring one seat for majority. So Scots do not have to worry about a conservative/UKIP/EDL/BNP coalition.
What is all this nonsense about Labour and the conservatives being in bed together? Some of the worst tripe I have ever come across, just because they were on the same side in the referendum does not make them bed mates. A politician saying something does not make it true I am afraid. 🙄
There is no swing to the right.
Is the rise of UKIP a lurch to the left then ?
What is all this nonsense about Labour and the conservatives being in bed together?
Not sure what you have read tbh have i missed something?
[quote=fasternotfatter ]There is no swing to the right. Current projections show a hung parliament with Labour requiring one seat for majority. 😆
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/uk2010.php [/img]
Rise of UKIP is a splitting of the existing right I reckon, not an overall swing.
Ok - which left-of-centre UK party is likely to be in power next?
I'm actually interested if there is anything recording a genuine rise of the right.
Beyond that is, those already on the right either changing political allegiance. Or becoming less politically apathetic.
I know of a few UKIP voters, and they've always been that 'way' inclined but have either voted Tory* or not bothered to vote.
Scotroutes wins todays prize for out of date obscure graph from a website no one has heard of.
I suppose labour do look to the right of the SNP, but then again Labour are aiming to reduce the deficit rather than buy votes. It will be interesting to see how the SNPs figures for an independent Scotland stack up with the oil price set to hit rock bottom! There would have been some seriously austere times coming had Scotland chosen independence.
