.
They were against it now. They were for it later in the parliamentary term. Which is what is happening. Still… a nice shitty stick to beat Starmer with.
So having made a great deal of noise about it, their position is exactly the same as the government's. Nice one, Sir.
too many people on the left want “their” leader, not someone looking to lead for the whole country, and win enough seats to be able to do so. It’s blinding obvious to me, because that was me.
I think that many on the left, as well as the centre and the right, are still waiting to find out what kind of leader Starmer is. At the moment he's a total irrelevance. As for the blindingly obvious, it's probably best to not draw wider conclusions from a single data point.
The sad fact is that this government is now largely giving the electorate what they want. Left or centrist on the economy and hard right on immigration/culture wars type issues - with a 'charismatic' leader.
No one really seems to care that much about the incompetence and corruption "they're all like that".
What are Labour offering as an alternative?
Starmer made a (lame) joke in his response yesterday - something along the lines of "it's nice for once to be addressing the person who really makes the decisions" (Sunak).
What he probably hasn't clocked is that he'll still be addressing Sunak after the next election - the difference will be that it will be every Wednesday at PMQs rather than in the annual budget. Odds on that Sunak will be the PM and Starmer will still be leading the opposition - if he doesn't fall on his sword before that.
Good summary of the problems Labour face in the Evening Standard of all places
Odds on that Sunak will be the PM
I can't see this happening. Firstly Boris isn't going to step aside, and more importantly never underestimate the ingrained racism of the tories. Sorry to be crude, but your average white working class tory voter will be thinking they didn't put Boris in charge to end up with a p*** as PM. That's the bottom line.
Starmer is dull. He won’t win the next election.
Correct.
As for being behind in the polls, what has been the biggest issue affecting politics in the last year? Shall I give you a clue? Begins with a C.
The simple fact is, whatever flavour of Government in charge they were always going to get an easier ride during this sort of crisis. The airwaves and newspapers are full of it. No time(intentionally or otherwise) for what the opposition thinks or does, in fact the opposition are irrelevant at this moment in time. Except when the opposition have potential problems(SNP).
He isn't attacking the Government! What about those 120,000 deaths, what about the insane levels of corruption, what about the disaster of Brexit? Well here's some news: The Government are pandering to a section of the population who really don't give a sh*t about that. And its a section of the population that under our deranged voting system, matters.
So when the left on here come back and talk about progressive taxation, or social justice, all those deaths etc, well, they don't give a sh*t about all that. Holding rigidly onto ideals without developing some sort of flexibility and adaptation will condemn the likes of the labour party to some sort of puritanical party that could have the largest membership in Europe...but remain in terminal opposition.
There is also this attitude that certain sections of the electorate will see the lefts way of thinking after all this disaster and come to socialism*. Not going to happen. I think only a world wide disaster of epic proportions will do that, this virus isn't that disaster, an environmental disaster? Possibly. (*disaster capitalism and disaster socialism use the same mechanisms to achieve what they want)
Think metaphor's such as Horses to water, mountains to Prophets etc.
The tories have taken decades to slowly shred the post war social contract, and that coupled with their unjustified reputation for fiscal responsibility, will mean average voter will vote to hold on to what they've got, how ever little it is, even though the tories have chipped away a little more from them in that particular governance cycle, over the 'tax and spend' myth that has been laid on the Labour party.
So the labour party are now proceeding through what the tory party did 1997-2001: nowhereville. The government back then were a damn sight more competent than the current shower, who are being shielded by the Covid crisis.
We will then get the end of lockdown, in time for Summer. Hooray! Feelgood times are ahead, with extra feelgood from a successful vaccination program. Obviously, this won't last.
The B word and all it has entailed will loom into view. But from the end of 2021 to 2023, the government will try to avoid the B word, and the best way to do that is to simply not talk about it, and have a client media do the same. But It has already started in some newspapers, just little stories.
Whether the Tories have an election in 2024, or after having amended the fixed term parliament act in 2023, Starmer won't win. In fact 2023 would be perfect for the tories, just at the tail end of the feelgood time. What the Labour party will do is claw back some of those constituencies lost by Starmers predecessor in 2019. We will have to watch for who the Yanks vote for in 2024, as that could throw a spanner in the works, but end of the decade is where the real action will occur.
This is a slow burner, but obviously if you are fighting for the soul of a party to impose an ideology that a significant section of the voting public rejected at the last election with disastrous results, then by all means, bash Starmer.
Well that was a whole lot of nothing
Even the very anti-Corbyn New Statesman is turning away from Starmer.
13-point lead for the Tories in the latest yougov poll, the wheels are really falling off for Starmer. Is this still Corbyn's fault somehow?
Is this still Corbyn’s fault somehow?
Obviously, and anyone who says otherwise is just a PFJ placard-waving idealist.
Good and in-depth post El-bent…. I shall now post a one liner rubbishing it without engaging with any of your points…
Good and in-depth post El-bent…. I shall now post a one liner rubbishing it without engaging with any of your points…
Feel free: it'll be worth no less than El-bent's diatribe, and will waste less time.
Why not take them up on their points, rather than wasting your time being rude?
13-point lead for the Tories in the latest yougov poll
33 points behind where they should be! And worse than the election result, that's takes some doing. 😂
Why not take them up on their points, rather than wasting your time being rude?
I have absolutely no intention of debating points with someone who has apparently already decided what I think, and is egregiously rude in saying so.
You of course are free to do so.
33 points behind where they should be! And worse than the election result, that’s takes some doing. 😂
Yeah, but that's all your fault for caring about social justice. Or something.
We’re all agreed the “vaccine bounce” is real, yes? And will only increase through the summer. Labour will fall further yet. Maybe Starmer will be ejected or step down after the May elections…? [ laughs - we all know that’s not the Labour way ]
Yeah, but that’s all your fault for caring about social justice. Or something.
Clearly what they need is less policy and more forensic competence. Or a bit more Mandelson?
In fact 2023 would be perfect for the tories, just at the tail end of the feelgood time.
May 2023 … before the April 2023 tax increases can be felt by voters … so that the Tories can be seen to “take the difficult decisions”, but the negative effects of those decisions are a post election problem. The budget has me thinking that I’m wrong about an early election, and they could well be considering it.
Why not take them up on their points, rather than wasting your time being rude?
You say in depth, I say verbose and lacking in substance. If you expect me to read an essay it had better be worthwhile.
Edit: I just tried reading it again and got nothing from it either, other than 'it's not his fault' or something. Is there a more concise version?
What's worrying for Starmer is that as the weather opens up & vaccine kicks in & economy picks up a little bit- will seem like huge increase in growth because base is so low-more people will become pro Boris, perception of EU vaccine rollout also gives them an actual brexit positive
Sunak's budget was a whole lot of meh, not much for Starmer to lay into, other than to say it was unambitious at a time when it needs to be much more than a bit more austerity
Election is 3 years off but Starmer does need to get a consistent message across, he can't rely on Tories being useless to win.
Wow, just read a few of the posts on this page.
Never has it been truer that in the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I wonder if any of us would care to admit that we underestimated Johnson’s appeal? I know I did. (I’m not making excuses for Starmer here...) I mean, I saw his appeal (not personally) but I was all, “yeah, give him a few months and people will really see...”
And yet, 5 COBRA meeting skipped, one of the highest death rates, barefaced lies about the situation in NI and s people still ****ing love him.
By most metrics, he’s failing. Even though people ****ing know he’s lying, they still love him. I find it quite worrying.
I wonder if any of us would care to admit that we underestimated Johnson’s appeal?
No. Overestimated the intellect of the average citizen not to be taken in by such a ridiculous fraud.
I wonder if any of us would care to admit that we underestimated Johnson’s appeal?
Johnson represents the hopes of everyone who has fantasies of reaching beyond their station irregardless of their ability. Despite his upper middle class upbringing, everyone can see he's a bumbling idiot, but yet look where he is. Add in a bit of personal 'one of the lads', anti-establishment bravado and you have the perfect antithesis to the detached, sneering, academic political establishment of which Starmer is now the poster boy.
Starmer had one chance, and that was to be the person who he claimed to be in his slick leadership campaign videos. That version of Starmer was appealing, almost inspiring in fact. I know I fell for it, yet he abandoned it, and the political vision that goes with it at the very first opportunity in favour of box-ticking banality. I don't think I underestimated Johnson, but I vastly overestimated Starmer.
Overestimated the intellect of the average citizen not to be taken in by such a ridiculous fraud.
Well, not to be argumentative 😀 but isn’t that kind of the same as underestimating his appeal?
I wonder if any of us would care to admit that we underestimated Johnson’s appeal?
I am not sure he will hang around for long still though unless he can turn it into a situation like being London mayor.
To take the items though:
Covid: He hasnt really been challenged well on it. The media despite a few waffles mostly bounce along with the glorious leader. Just some PMQs and thats it and most people dont care about them. The current success of vaccines means that will be knocked out of peoples memory. A good public inquiry would do a lot of damage but since the tories will control the rules for it that aint going to happen and it will be designed to take years to report anyway.
NI: Reality is most people dont know or care. Of those who do care I think quite a few arent overly fussed since they see the short term pain leading towards a united Ireland so arent going to make a major case right now. Which leaves just the unionists. Who else are they going to turn to though?
The reality is that Starmer is a passenger in all this, for now, Johnson will control the narrative for the rest of the year, people want to hear good news & he loves to deliver it.
But Sunak's budget does nothing for growth so the pain will keep piling up for many,
Starmer has to offer a better solution for them
The other unknown is holyrood elections & the constitutional showdown if SNP get a majority, this will be on Johnson & his Brexit
What follows from that will be interesting, Labour were badly burned for supporting the Tories in the No campaign last time
I'm not sure that voterd backing austerity, especially tory voters is news
Well, not to be argumentative 😀 but isn’t that kind of the same as underestimating his appeal?
Well, sort of. It's a bit like winning a marathon by jumping in a taxi.
I still cannot believe that bloody fraud is prime minister. The thought that that lying shit is representing me to the world just makes me want to say 'sorry' to any foreigner I ever meet.
Oh dear..
Who doesn’t back his plan? The increase doesn’t kick in for two years, has been tapered to help smaller companies (if you don’t look to closely), and in the meantime there is a big tax break bribe for expanding and investing companies. He’s got the timing right… well hopefully he has. Now is not the time for a tax rises, hopefully things will be different in two years… he might still be jumping the gun though… we’ll see…
I still cannot believe that bloody fraud is prime minister.
At least he’s not part of the political establishment, or detached, or sneering (I’m still laughing at that idea… he’s the very definition of all three).
kimbers
Full MemberWhat follows from that will be interesting, Labour were badly burned for supporting the Tories in the No campaign last time
Largely a myth this. Labour's support was already collapsing before the indy ref, it's just that a lot of "analysis" misses that because they only look at general elections and not scottish elections, for some reason. Never sure if that's because they want to push an agenda or if they just genuinely don't know anything about Scottish politics.
It's not as if Starmer hadn't had a warning with the lack of popularity of Tig and The Lib-dems.
Who'd have thought purging the left from a left-wing party was receipt for success?
Tories are all over this now (the budget was a waste of time - just trying to avoid the talk of public spending saves the country. Sunak talks drivel but sounds convincing.)
Labour have an identity crisis, an image problem and are looking irrelevant.
Starmer has achieved this fantastic poll result without hardly any stick from the press, post-brexit and a terrible government.
Centrism driven by focus groups is clearly doing its thing. Moronic.
The other unknown is holyrood elections & the constitutional showdown if SNP get a majority, this will be on Johnson & his Brexit
Im unconvinced it’ll make any significant difference to Johnson.
Opposing tax rises on corporate profits, supporting them on low paid workers. What a f***** joke!
He does seem pretty swift at dragging the party into political irrelevance but he does need a stronger message than just 'Support the Establishment'. Even those business people not wanting a rise in corporation tax won't vote for him.
Who’d have thought purging the left from a left-wing party was receipt for success?
Over a year ago in the wake of the election result when binners et al were getting extremely excited about the impending PLP takeover I said that it would be a huge mistake to make an enemy of the left rather than working with them. That's exactly how it's turning out. They've backed themselves into a corner inhabited by a rapidly diminishing number of establishment centrist diehards. The comparison with the lib dems and pathetic Change UK is a very good one, and labour risk going the same way if they don't find a way to re-engage with their activists and wider movement.
Opposing tax rises on corporate profits, supporting them on low paid workers.
This isn't what has happened, is it. They have agreed in principle to both income tax increases (via the usual stealth means... freezing bands) and corporation tax increases (on larger profits only) later in this parliamentary term. When it comes to the details, I want them to say that they support the freezing of the higher band only... and not bring more low paid workers into paying income tax. Let's see what happens. His focus currently (rightly) is about the cuts in general, and NHS pay in particular. Austerity on the backs of NHS and care staff is the crack in the budget to try and prise open... it pricks Sunak's attempt to claim the "honest" tag, as he didn't mention it in his speech... it also something you would hope the voters can understand and might take a stand on, given what NHS and care workers have been though recently, and how it is now more obvious than ever that we rely on them and are over stretching them. But Starmer very much sounds on the back foot when trying to make the push in those areas today though... he's under attack from all sides, sinking fast in the polls, and trying to sound more "emotional" in his delivery... he sounds like he's on the way out to me...
£37 billion, an amount equivalent to 30% of the NHS budget, spaffed on an ineffective test and trace service and a derisory 1% pay increase for NHS staff. Total open goal for Starmer and what's he done with it...crickets and tumbleweed!
He's been on all the radio news I've heard today with that point. Presumably on TV this evening. But, as I said, he sounded on the back foot. Less "cricket and tumbleweed"... more "moaning into the ether". I mean, he's right, but everyone's mind is on a post vaccine summer already... they've forgotten about the NHS and care staff.. forgotten the dead... forgotten the billions spent on PPE and a TTI system that didn't work... forgotten Sunak bribing us to mingle in pubs and restaurants... forgotten Johnson missing in action sorting out his move between women... forgotten him boasting about shaking the hands of everyone... forgotten him claiming we would gain an economic advantage by not introducing social distancing measures... forgotten the government taking a year to put quarantine measures in place... and then still somehow rushing and fluffing even that... forgotten getting all kids into schools for one day of virus spreading before the latest "lock down"...
eh? starmers comments were top story on BBC this morning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56288237
30k likes for this tweet in a few hours
this is a gift to starmer and hes using it
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1367809830044467206
Fair play he almost sounds passionate in that clip
Yes budget and this NHS non pay rise is massive for Labour.
