Cuts. Austerity. Its as clear as day.
Exactly. We should not be drawn into trying to use austerity when we are attempting to both recover from the pandemic, and pivot away from being part of a large home market to a small one increasing trade with distant markets. It would ruin lives. This is no time to be increasing Corporation Tax, or reducing Universal Credit… or any of the other “belt tightening” that falls between those two ends of an austerity drive. It will wreck us.
What copa said.
The left unfortunately are showing their true colours, anything that isn’t ‘corbynite’ is to be hated, in fact your hatred of starmer is all you now have, because you’ve got f*** all left to say to the rest of us after the election of 2019.
The left are showing the colours of believing in the things they always believed in, which the Labour party used to represent. It's beyond parody that the right of the Labour party undermined Corbyn at every turn, lied about their intentions during the leadership election (and refused to admit where their funding came from), took the party way to the right with no consultation and expelled him from the party, and then have the nerve to still blame him for their own woeful performance.
I doubt I'll ever vote Labour again tbh.
It’s pretty obvious that we’ve got it wrong: just look how well Labour is doing.
When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.
I doubt I’ll ever vote Labour again tbh.
I’ll vote labour again when I see that they want to solve the problems in society which disadvantage and disenfranchise normal working people. I see almost no evidence now that they want to do that. I still think the party and wider movement does, but the vast majority of it’s MPs and bureaucrats don’t.
FFS Lisa Nandy, supposedly the authentic voice of northern working people, doesn’t even understand how corporation tax works.
The corporation tax thing is daft
If only because corporations aren't mega conglomerates that they're portrayed as and possibly are in the mid of the hard left
Theres been a huge drive to push businesses to incorporate
75% of UK businesses are incorporated now
Of those 45% are single employee!
A corporation tax is madness if you want the economy to grow & recover, because its the smallest businesses that will be hit hardest
What Starmer needs to be explaining is that a corporation tax is just austerity 2.0
He should be arguing that a tax on the biggest is fine but for the bulk it is just punitive at the worst possible time
Sunak should be offering them loans and grants
It is all too easy to reduce everything to some Kang & Kodos-like twirling, twirling, but the stark reality faces us.
In the absence of a credible third party, we live in what is essentially a facsimile of the US Democrat/Republican dichotomy. So what does that look like in England?
It looks like the choice between a Tory faction divorced entirely from reality, or a Labour party forced to tone down its more radical energies.
This will never be a difficult choice for me, yet i do see that that is a real problem.
When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.
I had assumed that you weren't daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.
Reasonably moderate Guardian article that 'gets' MMT - in a political context.
Corporation tax debate is a red herring.
No it doesn't need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
I was chatting with a businessman round here about corporation tax rises and falls a couple of years ago and he smiled, looked at bit surprised and said 'does anyone pay it?' Someone said ^ it's all a bit symbolic and this experience would certainly suggest so. IANAA. Companies House had him down as £100m in assets.
No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
Which again goes back to my point that labour should be using the opportunities covid has presented to enliighten the voting public about how the economy really works. If they're going to persist with opposing corporation tax rises, then say that's because the debt incurred by covid does not need to be 'paid back', because it already has in the form of QE, but we need to address the fact that some have done very well out of the pandemic. Instead we get 'it will have to be paid back, just not yet', and 'we have to be friendly to business'. Everything they say is 30 years out of date.
Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night about (amongst other things) ‘patriotism’ and Labour?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sgt1
Corporation tax debate is a red herring.
No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
Spot on.
Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night
Thanks... will listen now.
A good history lesson... with just enough modern context. Depressing, but well considered.
I had assumed that you weren’t daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.
A daft conclusion to which to jump. But it’s no surprise.
I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.
I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.
I'm getting that way too. Unfortunately he appears to be properly terrified of the Red Wall Racists. Looks like 'the B word' will get the redacted treatment and he'll bumble along ineffectually.
It's looking like being a disappointment for the grownups.
He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit
Why would he want to 'control' a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have? Staying away from brexit is the only thing he's got right. It's highly illustrative however that he seems to have a talent for pissing almost everyone off. Far from repairing the 'damage' from Corbyn he's well on track to do even worse and lose more seats. I presume the centrists will use that as evidence they should be even more rightwing?
Hahahaha! And now it would appear as well as supporting Johnson at every turn, they can also copy his MO of doing u-turns when they realise they've f***** up. It's laughably incompetent.
Why would he want to ‘control’ a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have?
Labour will need to start at some point if they want to sweep up all the broken Leavers when we start gradually rejoining by stealth in about 5 years. It will be too late by 2030 when we are basically back in the EU with a reduced 'say' and all the ****s look back on ten years of pointless hardship - and finally grow up.
Dazh - the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error and he needs to control the debate not to be labelled as a remainer but to hamnmer the tories for the errors and hardship they are causing
sweep up all the broken Leavers
You say that with such inevitability 🙂 . The pro-brexit vote was an unholy alliance between diehard tories and pissed off working/under class. What on earth makes you think either of these groups are going to start voting labour under Starmer?
the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error
Do they? The sense I get is that the jury is out and will be for some time. I wouldn't mistake a few pissed off fisherman and pig farmers as a consensus. I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.
of doing u-turns
There is no u-turn … now is not the time to increase corporation tax. Longer term it is not just desirable, but inevitable.
You say that with such inevitability
Well it's either that or full fascism.
Ha, the corporation tax thing is the beginning of a new austerity narrative. “We’ve all got to pay for this sometime...just like your credit card bills folks...” And it’s a massive trap into which our ex-Corbynites are trying to walk straight into, because the chance to fire a few (what will be) ineffective shots at “business” is just too tempting. Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.
Your second 'think' needs some kind of qualifier.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
Yes, it's definitely the left making the political mistakes.
What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer. I suspect they're bitterly disappointed with what they've seen so far.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
They were never too good at seeing the massive elephant trap, clearly visible from space, with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.
Grandad spent 5 years trying to clamber out of the latest one he’d blundered headlong into
Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied "capitulation, capitulation, capitulation".
What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters...
I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.
I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.
It's instructive that you chose to ignore what I said. Possibly my fault for making another daft assumption.
Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied “capitulation, capitulation, capitulation”.
I think "appeasement, appeasement, appeasement" would be closer to the mark.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
I was honestly optimistic about Starmer and thought he could be a good person to make Labour more electable. He's been a bitter disappointment in every way.
with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.
Have you ever considered that instead of spending all their time looking for traps and trying to avoid them they should be setting a few of their own? It seems to me that if I were a politician, I'd be quite pleased if I managed to get the opposition to try and outdo me on my own principles rather than promoting their own. I'm afraid labour aren't even in the same league as the tory operation right now. It's like watching a 3rd round FA cup match with non-league journeymen against a premier league team, it's no wonderr Johnson looks so smug.
grum
Free MemberI was honestly optimistic about Starmer and thought he could be a good person to make Labour more electable. He’s been a bitter disappointment in every way.
Same here. I worried he'd get crucified for being a remainer, but as it turns out, it doesn't really matter- they can more or less just ignore him
Have you ever considered that instead of spending all their time
Who says they’re spending all their time looking for traps? This one, despite your not being able to see it, was pretty obvious. I’d be worried about them if they’d been spending all their time looking out for it. Maybe it might have taken you quite a while but I’m sure they’ve more important focus groups to be running in the meantime. 🙂
This one, despite your not being able to see it
Labour are busy trying not to fall into policy traps like corporation tax, whilst the tories have them abandoning their core principles and playing on the pitch of outdated 20th century economics. It's tactics vs strategy and labour look like amateurs.
And as for corporation tax, as I said previously it's not about using it to raise revenue to pay off the debt or keeping it low to boost the economy, it's about addressing the inequality caused by covid. Even the guardian gets it FFS, and labour, as is their MO under Starmer are way behind everyone else. Hardly a surprise when you have the likes of LIsa Nandy in the shadow cabinet who doesn't even know that corporation tax is levied on profits not income.
You contradict yourself so much. You want austerity measures to come while we’re in the middle of the worst economic downturn in our lifetimes, and accuse others of 20th century economics. Now is not the time to constrict anything, and Labour should not back the Tories if they choose to. In a few years, then redistributive taxation changes will be coming down the line, from the Tories, in preparation for the election as much as anything, and at that point Labour should embrace that as well, while pointing out who is being missed by whatever the Tories are proposing (and they will miss many, at both ends of the distribution, as they deliberately make fresh loopholes for the richest, and miss helping others at the bottom and middle through ignorance of their situations… they always do).
The next General Election will be in 2024.
How many of today's considerations do you think will still be in play?
Nice thread from Richard Murphy about money supply and the nonsense of government 'debt'.
Primer for MMT.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1366665012882857984?s=19
(Needs expanding. Quite lengthy)
The next General Election will be in 2024.
Probably.
It could be earlier if Johnson can sell the myth that we got out of the covid slump quicker than the rest of Europe due to vaccines and the true disparity of that recovery (due to Brexit) is not yet staring the electorate in the face.
They could perceive that there is a narrow window of opportunity before the true impact of Brexit is obvious enough to enough of the 'great' British public.
You want austerity measures to come while we’re in the middle of the worst economic downturn in our lifetimes
No, I don't. You really are the master at putting words in people's mouths. It's a pretty crappy trick, like something you'd see at a university debating society. 🙄
Putting up corporation tax a few points or not will make almost no difference to anything in economic terms. What it does do however is send a signal to working people that the government is on their side and wants to redress the imbalance between those who've done very well out of covid, and those who have suffered. On one side we have man of the people Johnson trying to 'level up', on the other an out of touch city solicitor standing up for the profits of corporations. The tories are running rings around labour, and it's cringeworthy to watch.
On one side we have man of the people Johnson trying to ‘level up’, on the other an out of touch city solicitor standing up for the profits of corporations. The tories are running rings around labour, and it’s cringeworthy to watch.
Please put speech marks around 'Man of the People'. The thought that anyone might genuinely think he is actually makes a little bit of sick want to come out.
Otherwise (and **** me I never thought I'd see the day) I am beginning to agree with you.
The problem is that the public's perception has been so warped by being told what they want to hear and having their petty prejudices played back to them as 'news' that many literally cannot see Johnson and his rabble for the frauds they are.
Stupidity is strength, it would seem.
That's why I do think there is an opportunity for Labour to come out as the 'Bollocks to Brexit' party. If most of the population think that real life mirrors a plotline in Hollyoaks then it is time to start playing down to that mindset.
You really are the master at putting words in people’s mouths.
No, I'm not. Increasing taxes is austerity. Along with restraints on public spending. And there is no need to do either right now... and to do so would be economically damaging... but more than that... it's buying into to the "start paying back the debt right now, despite the hole we're in" narrative that ALL the political parties got wrong after the 2008 crash. Delay the claw back, there is A LOT to do right now as we come back from Covid AND we are expecting our businesses to refocus from business models that assumed a large home market that has just become an export/import market. Now is not the time to increases taxes on business, or workers... or the time to cut Universal Credit and other benefits... not the time for pay freezes for public sector workers... not the time to tighten our belts... it's time to invest... rebalancing tax burdens and making then fairer comes later, if your methods involve higher taxes... if anything... a tax break/cut for the low paid should be the priority this year... paired with the same for smaller businesses, especially those with a physical presence in our communities. No taxes should rise this year... in a few years, I'd be fully behind reformed NI & CGT that doesn't let the higher paid of the hook... and additional business taxes aimed at larger companies. Not now.
Please put speech marks around ‘Man of the People’. The thought that anyone might genuinely think he is actually makes a little bit of sick want to come out.
They absolutely do think this. The only people who don't are a few diehard lefties and hand-wringing middle class liberals. If there's one thing the tories learnt from Corbyn, it's that the on the ground hand-shaking, hard hat wearing, talking in normal language stuff works. Johnson, like Corbyn (pre-2017 election before the AS nonsense) comes across as a normal bloke surrounded by technocrats telling him what he can't do. Starmer on the other hand is the uber-technocrat. It's really quite clever, they've turned a wibbling upper class buffoon into a salt of the earth bloke 'saying it as it is' and trying his best despite the naysaying bureaucrats trying to hold him back. And as for the election, it's game set and match. I wouldn't be surprised if we get one next year.
