it’ll be some sort of reboot of Miliband’s benign capitalism fantasy, with a strong helping of Kennedy-esque ‘ask not what your country can do for you’ stuff
Well, it won't be about overthrowing capitalism, so your first guess is a bolted on certainty. Second one likely also... the responsibility we all have towards each other is something to push because of this pandemic... I suspect both major parties will try that one.
Just checked, it’s only till March
and it's not simply an extra £10k pa as was widely reported. It was a maximum that they could claim to help them - and their staff - work from home, in the same way that my employer has an allowance for desks, screens, chairs and other kit I've needed to work from home.
Well, it won’t be about overthrowing capitalism
I never expected it would, but he's going to need something a little more eye-opening than the usual non-policies if he wants people to react with anything other than a disinterested shrug.
There's ben a few references to Labour losing the
working class block vote.
but did they always have it? We've had more years under Tory governments since the first Labour one in 1924 even prior to the decline of manufacturing in the 60s/70s. There must have been plenty of working class that voted other than Labour.
23 minutes in and all I've heard so far is something about a British Recovery Bond and financial responsibility. I'm really trying to keep an open mind here but I'm struggling.
Yup... all that "war time generation" and "financial responsibility" stuff isn't aimed at us Dazh, is it?
He was very dull though, for sure.
Theres a Tory MP on Five Live saying that what he's advocating is 'old style socialism'
Wow! That's it. A british recovery bond which no one will have the foggiest as to what that is or how it will benefit them. I was wrong, he didn't get anywhere near to something as bold as anything Miliband proposed.
Too long a speech for my very foggy brain this morning, to keep up with.
Successful vaccine rollout has been the major win for Johnson, yet he’s still only a few pts up
That's one way to look at it. Over a hundred thousand dead while chums pocket billions and Johnson still leading - an outstanding achievement for Sir Keith !!
. Over a hundred thousand dead while chums pocket billions and Johnson still leading
Why is this not front and centre in everything he says?
I wouldn't vote Tory, obviously. Can't see a reason to vote for Labour on current form.
I'll vote for anyone with a sensible PR proposal. Except UKIP.
Not so sure those red wall voters are there to be won back, a lot of them gone to the dark side and are staying put. The traditional Labour pact between the liberal intelligentsia and the working class has been shattered once and for all.
The future for politics in this country lies with the youth, they have been energised more than at any time since the early 80's and Brexit and corona have served up such an enormous shitstorm for them that in a few years their fury will become manifest.
In the mean time why not focus on Tory remainers? There's millions of them, some probably even voted Labour back in the nineties and noughties.
Not so sure those red wall voters are there to be won back, a lot of them gone to the dark side and are staying put. The traditional Labour pact between the liberal intelligentsia and the working class has been shattered once and for all.
All the polling suggests that isn't the case. A lot of those Tory MPs are sat on miniscule majorities (in my own constituency its 102). A recent poll in these constituencies showed that if there were election now, all but a handful would return to labour.
In the mean time why not focus on Tory remainers? There’s millions of them, some probably even voted Labour back in the nineties and noughties.
Absolutely! It's the only way. Not just remainers, but small business owners, the self-employed. Sell labour as the party of aspiration now that the Tories policies are actively hostile to these people. The Tories are now essentially UKIP and their narrow backward-gazing English nationalism is damaging our economy. Labour should be shouting about this and offering itself as a safer pair of hands for the economy. There are surely a lot of more forward thinking and socially liberal Tory voters who must be horrified at what the party has become.
Do labour have a position on joining the single market?
I don't think anyone is allowed to mention the B word.
It's probably safe to assume that a labour party under Starmer would be a lot less confrontational towards the EU than the Tories or the former 'Lexit' party leadership and seek closer cooperation.
They just won't come out and openly state that at the moment
I'm bowled over by his big idea for the country, and it's great that he's looking to the future.
Do labour have a position on
joining the single marketanything?
FTFY
Once again - this is not the time to get bogged down in concrete policy ( apart from they need a decent constitutional position before the holyrood elections) Starmer is on a long term rebuilding process. This is the beginning of the second phase which is to outline philosophy / general positions. Like it or not the reality of the situation is that Starmer must not "frighten the horses"
I personally like the speech
Ist stage was to get Johnson nailed on incompetence and cronyism and to appear competent and in control - completed
2nd stage is to outinle his political philosophy and this speech is the first part of that
There are some good things outlined in the speech. its just Starmer understands that he cannot get bogged down in detail of policy when the election is not for a good few years - and years that are going to be volatile
Who are the enemy?
At some point Starmer has to define this and go on the attack, he doesn't seem like he is the kind of leader to do so...same for his predecessor.
Once again – this is not the time to get bogged down in concrete policy ( apart from they need a decent constitutional position before the holyrood elections) Starmer is on a long term rebuilding process.
I agree: he should be setting out a vision rather than his specific proposal for a savings account. I was trying to remember what his speech reminded me of, then it came to me:
Happy to be corrected there binners with regards the slim majorities and current sentiment in the northern towns.
You've just switched my pint glass from glass half empty to glass half full! I've always feared that there was a sentiment amongst the northern towns that could be tapped for nefarious gain and that's exactly what happened at the last election. Good to hear that it isn't getting any worse and indeed could be reversed.
One good thing about this is that if Labour do take the side of the small business person etc it's a strategy that won't alienate any of the Red Wall voters. As much as those towns have suffered through de-industrialisation and globalisation the electorate there recognise that the world has changed and that the traditional Labour values of collective bargaining and committie meetings have no real meaning for them any more.
They were looking for somewhere to park their values and Boris provided a parking space but if you are right, the meter is ticking.
I was trying to remember what his speech reminded me of, then it came to me:
When it comes to "politics as entertainment", he doesn't even match up to Major. There's always the slim hope that enough of the public will want a dull PM in a few years time... that they'd have learnt the meaning behind the phrase "may you live in interesting times" and just want the politics to go away and Starmer to get on and lead manage the country. But I feel that's a very, very slim hope indeed. Carry on Starmer... but, if need be, be ready to move aside, once you've steadied the ship, and let someone else try and "capture the interest" the voters in the final year before the general election.
Labour should be shouting about this and offering itself as a safer pair of hands for the economy.
They are trying this. Except for the shouting bit. More like quietly whispering it in people's ears. Which could be the right approach, I dunno... or it might be all they can do.
Absolutely! It’s the only way.
The problem with focusing on tory voters is that they want tory policies. Show me how labour wins tory voters with labour policies and I'll agree. And what do you mean by safe pair of hands for the economy? Economics has been turned on it's head in the wake of 2008 and now covid. 20th century orthodoxy on economic management is not only irrelevant, it's highly damaging and would result in deflation and future banking crises. The last thing labour should be doing is playing the role of fiscally responsible accountants interested more in balancing the books than eradicating inequality.
Most people don't have the time, inclination, or... dare I say it... intelligence to really understand macro economics... and you can't win by explaining it to them... you have to join in with the over simplification about profligacy... sad, but for now, a given.
Daz - the whole strapline for todays speech is 'There can be no return to business as usual.'
Listenin to what he says suggests that what they definitely don't intend to do is carry on with Tory economic policies. His whole point is that Tory austerity policies have left the countries infrastructure in such a threadbare state that its why we've struggled so much with a pandemic
The last thing labour should be doing is playing the role of fiscally responsible accountants interested more in balancing the books than eradicating inequality.
Exactly. The Government is pouring money into my sector.
'There can be no return to business as usual’ could mean anything. We're going into a major recession and you'll have to accept unemployment and pay cuts or alternatively we're proposing a major state intervention and we're going to address multiple issues of inequality. Which is most likely?
‘There can be no return to business as usual’ could mean anything.
It needs to, if they're going to avoid being boxed in by the Tories years out from an election.
Which is most likely?
Well, that's down to the government, not the opposition.
and you can’t win by explaining it to them…
You think people don't know everything's changed? They see governments across the world spending trillions, first to prop up the banks and now to prop up the economy to enable social distancing along with the billions needed to pay for vaccines, research, public health systems and other things. I think the vast majority of the publc are more than aware thet the old rules of tax and spend, deficits, debt, control of inflation etc are history. You don't have to be an economist or even financially savvy to see these changes, because they're staring us all in the face.
You think people don’t know everything’s changed?
I KNOW people don’t know everything’s changed. They're watching the dance off on Celebrity Strictly Love Island. They don't give a shit.
You don’t have to be an economist or even financially savvy to see these changes, because they’re staring us all in the face.
Not if you're watching the dance off on Celebrity Strictly Love Island, they're not. They don't give a shit.
You're seriously suggesting that the countries population that just voted for the most economically suicidal policy in human history are up to speed with the vagaries of current economic policy?
Good luck explaining it to them... best get the crayons out to do some simple diagrams, then get them to run a piece on it during Loose Women
You’re seriously suggesting that the countries population that just voted for the most economically suicidal policy in human history are up to speed with the vagaries of current economic policy?
I think they ask themselves where the money is coming from to pay for all this stuff, and then ask if it can found for this then why not for other things? The conclusion is inescapable, that the money can always be found for anything, and any poitician who says otherwise is lyiing. That's all they need to understand, and I think most people instinctively do.
I think they ask themselves where the money is coming from to pay for all this stuff, and then ask if it can found for this then why not for other things?
I think you are absolutely enormously overestimating both the curiosity on economic policy of the average person and their ability to draw any reasonable conclusions, even if they understood it, which they don't
dazh,
They are not Tory voters they are voters.
There is no such thing as Tory policy anymore. What they haven't stolen from Labour could be written on the back of a fag packet.
The Tory manifesto is now a picture book, Union Jacks on every page.
Dont despair too much, I think we'll see substantial political reform by the end of the decade. The coming generation won't put up with being held hostage by a bunch of grizzly pensioners for ever. The kind of politics we'll have then will have moved on from 20th Century ideologies, it will be something fit for the current Century. For the coming generation there is no such thing as the status quo, situation normal is most definitely f*** up.
We are at a peculiar point in history where the future has been decided by people that are already dead and that's an intolerable inheritance. A lot of people, both young an old feel that the future has been taken away from them and we'd do better to forge alliances around shared interests rather than look to tribalise people within outdated party political stereotypes.
I think you are absolutely enormously overestimating both the curiosity on economic policy of the average person and their ability to draw any reasonable conclusions
Probably, but that's a problem in itself which the labour party should be addressing. Labour gain nothing and lose an awful lot by perpetuating the myth that government finances are the same as everyone elses.
The second the labour party do that, the entire media will shout 'MAGIC MONEY TREE' at them and absolutely everyone will buy that.
We all know that the Tories have found a forest of money trees, but they're using it to funnel it all into the pockets of their mates. As with the banking crisis, it'll be straight back to austerity by the end of the year.
And if you try and explain your economic policies to your average member of the public, this is how it will be received...
The conclusion is inescapable, that the money can always be found for anything, and any poitician who says otherwise is lyiing. That’s all they need to understand, and I think most people instinctively do.
I'm really not sure they do.
The second the labour party do that, the entire media will shout ‘MAGIC MONEY TREE’ at them and absolutely everyone will buy that.
That's labour's core problem, and probably the main reason they do so badly. They're so terrified of the tories and the media they apologeticaly allow then to frame the debate and narrative without ever defending themselves or going on the attack. And then they wonder why people don't vote for them.
You know all about it. Can you not come up with a catchy 3 word slogan to summarise it
Everyone loves a good 3 word slogan
I think the vast majority of the publc are more than aware thet the old rules of tax and spend, deficits, debt, control of inflation etc are history.
Who do you talk to Dazh?!? Although, to be fair, breaking out of our bubbles (away from the internet) is tougher than ever right now. I hope you are right, but I would be incredibly surprised if the majority of UK voters did not still absolutely believe that “we” will have to pay back all that is being borrowed to fund our way through the current mess. And if it is Labour who start telling them otherwise, they won’t accept it, because of the messenger. The over simplistic conflation of macro economics with household income can’t be done away with by a Labour Party trying to win over the trust of the voters. If others can educate the public, so be it, but Labour can’t do it right now, and they’d be naive in the extreme to try. They have to do what the Conservatives do… ride both horses… promise “targeted” spending and shake that magic money tree, while denying that they are or would do so.
We’re going into a major recession and you’ll have to accept unemployment and pay cuts or alternatively we’re proposing a major state intervention and we’re going to address multiple issues of inequality
I know which of those two options I'd have liked the leader of the opposition to have been shouting very loudly today, and for the last few months.
And while I share binners despair at the wilful ignorance of the electorate, the Labour party has 3 years to ram home some catchy 3 word slogans to start getting the message into their disinterested heads.
Try it…
“Debt is illusionary”
“Money is endless”
What did you have in mind?
Starmer in his speech (if you could stay awake listening to him) was anti-austerity, pro support, pro public service investment… without reference to differing macro economic theories. That is the right approach… but it is dull, a so is he… an awful combination… people won’t even register it. Not scaring the voters, but offering them some hope and excitement had to be possible, no? Or perhaps you need to be entertaining.
If others can educate the public
They are. The Defiicit Myth is a bestseller and the ideas it and others are promoting are becoming mainstream, especially among the young and educated metropolitan types who will form labour's new base.
but Labour can’t do it right now, and they’d be naive in the extreme to try.
If labour get left behind by the growing realisation that everything we've been told about government finances is a lie, then people will quite rightly blame them for not telling them the truth. They need to get ahead of it and lead the debate rather than trailing in it's wake as they always do.
“Debt is illusionary”
“Money is endless”
I'm not suggestiing they say any of this. What they can say though is the simple message that when we need to solve a problem, money is not the limiting factor, and we can fund the solutions just like we always have in the past during wars and national crises. "We can afford the NHS", "We can afford good pensions", "We can afford good schools", "We can afford free higher education" etc.
We all know that the Tories have found a forest of money trees, but they’re using it to funnel it all into the pockets of their mates
I know that the government is pouring money into green infrastructure being delivered by the public sector. The sort of thing Labour should be advocating.
They need to get ahead of it and lead the debate rather than trailing in it’s wake as they always do.
They can’t get that far ahead of the public. They were way ahead of them at the last election, with policies that appealed to me (and were moderate Northern European polices at that) but was clearly never going to be trusted by the English public. You utterly overestimate this country.
Ransos… the nonsensical approach of spending the money while simultaneously claiming you can’t afford to has been a winning formula for the Conservatives, and I agree Labour need to be just as cake and eat it.
And while I share binners despair at the wilful ignorance of the electorate, the Labour party has 3 years to ram home some catchy 3 word slogans to start getting the message into their disinterested heads.
I agree.
People don’t want masses of figures. They don’t expect you to write a whole ramp of detailed policies. They want to know the character, identity and mission of the journey’
‘You start with the vision and the policies come afterwards. You get your compass first, work out the destination, then set out on your journey’
Tony Blair, 1994.
