Invisible Man.
He’s called today for a ‘circuit breaker’ national lockdown involving shutting the schools for another 2 weeks to try and get infections under control.
Guess what Boris will eventually end up being forced into doing, 3 weeks too late? As always
https://twitter.com/independent/status/1345757283029045250?s=21
Local councils, and unions, stood up to Boris and stopped schools opening tomorrow.
Then Mr irrelevant piggy backed on top of that after the event.
No government uturn on schools yet loum. Starmer is speaking up too late… but he’s given Johnson every second possible to do what obviously needs doing… and he still hasn’t. As for councils, too few are standing up to the government and it’s folly. Those that have, like Liverpool, deserve our total support.
So he lied during the leadership contest, cool.
Well that EU bombshell could change a few votes in 2024.
He is just telling the truth. do you really think the EU want to negotiate from scratch again - incremental change will be all thats available.
It would have been better tho to say " I want to go for FOM but I very much doubt its realistic" Still running scared of the right wing press and the racists IMO
One thing from that piece - he seems to be moving towards a constitutional convention which IMO is the only policy they can have for Scotland that makes any coherent sense for them
"I don’t think there is a case for re-joining the EU…that is not realistic"
We won’t be EU members again. Face it. We were given so many carve outs, and given so much special treatment, and still we stormed off in a huff. Damage done. Time to genuinely make UK policy more international again, including forging closer ties with the EU, and Norway, and Switzerland, and Iceland, and Turkey, through a series of formal agreements. Labour should make the case for FoM (as per Norway) eventually, but at least push for visa waivers for musicians and others who travel for work straight after the next election. Customs cooperation needs pushing as well… gold standard is to share in the common trade policy, but we are so far from that now, that any movement in that direction will help trade.
If course, NI and Scotland do have options to actually be in the EU again, and they should grab at those options… but that’s going to take much longer than many hope for, sadly.
I always used to vote for the person least likely to win so that they didn't lose their deposit.
Looks like I'm voting lib Dems again.
He is just telling the truth.
Which means he was lying when he ran for election.
What did he say that was a lie? You may well be right, but I’d like to know what was said, before joining in with throwing about accusations. If he said he would like us to become members again, or that we’d be in a better position if we did, or that he would vote to rejoin if ever given a chance… well… so would I. But the whole of the UK rejoining the EU isn’t realistic.
I don't know if you noticed but the odd thing has changed a bit since December 2019
But as we all know, pragmatism has no place in modern politics. You must shackle yourself to an ideology and stick to it no matter what happens, ignoring all evidence that doesn't suit your preferred narrative
I had wondered how his Remain supporting admirers would react to having their pants pulled down. Now I know.
We have left the EU. One of the reasons many of us wanted a “measure twice cut once” referendum on giving up membership, was because we knew that we couldn’t just “try being a non member”, see how it went, and then rejoin a few years down the line. Having left, that’s it, we don’t regain membership as the UK… all that is open to most of us is seeking better arrangements than we have now… membership is not a realistic option for England and Wales.
Does EU membership for new entrants mean the Euro is mandatory? I think that would be a major bar to the UK ever re-joining.
when standing for the Labour leadership after the party’s election defeat he said, as one of 10 pledges, he would “defend free movement as we leave the EU”.
Marr also pointed out that in January 2019, when he was asked specifically if he would bring back free movement of EU citizens to the UK, he had replied: “Yes of course, bring back, argue for, challenge.”
Has something unexpected happened that would cause a complete reversal of his position? Because Brexit with a shit deal has been the most likely option for a long time.
I don’t know if you noticed but the odd thing has changed a bit since December 2019
Marr also pointed out that in January 2019, when he was asked specifically if he would bring back free movement of EU citizens to the UK, he had replied: “Yes of course, bring back, argue for, challenge.”
As I said, Labour should now be pushing to bring back FoM long term. It’s useful for individuals and for all countries involved, as well as it making further cooperation in other areas easier. Making visa waivers for those working across borders (musicians, installers, tech support) a quick win that could be introduced straight after the next election (if EU+EEA agree to it still), and probably would be welcomed even by many of those voters who have been made to mistrust FoM in the form we had it ‘till this year.
We (the UK) have no realistic path back to membership. But there are many ways we can cooperate with the EU and the rest of Europe (and beyond) that the current government have sunk for no good reason, and are ripe for the taking, politically.
We’ve left the EU
We’re out.
I don’t like it, but there we are. No point fighting yesterday’s battles, though obviously some are still keen to be fighting the battles of the 1980’s. We need to engage with reality as it is, not with how we’d like it be
Brexit won’t even be on the radar once the tsunami of business failures and mass unemployment hits once furlough ends.
We’re going to facing a recession that’s going to make the 80’s and the banking crash look like a picnic.
The Tories answer to that will be even more drastic austerity. I’m waiting to see what alternative Labour will be proposing
I don’t want to see it bogged down in Brexit bullshit and #jeremywasright from the sixth formers
Does EU membership for new entrants mean the Euro is mandatory? I think that would be a major bar to the UK ever re-joining.
If the UK were to try and join the EU, they'd probably ask for the UK to be more in than out that it was before Brexit. Although tbh, who knows, after all with UK re-joining the EU they effectively have a £2trillion country - who unless the economy is upside down - will be a net contributor.
However any mention of re-joining the EU will probably be political suicide for the next 10-20 years or so.
As I said, Labour should now be pushing to bring back FoM long term.
He doesn't seem to agree.
“I don’t think that there’s scope for major renegotiation. We’ve just had four years of negotiation. We’ve arrived at a treaty and now we’ve got to make that treaty work,” he said.
Dealing with reality as it is now is accepting that he just said whatever he thought people wanted to hear to win the leadership contest, despite knowing it was BS? This is the whole 'being a grown-up' thing again eh.
If the UK tried to rejoin there would be multiple vetos.
this is yesterdays news all over the EU. We are gone and forgotten.
Does EU membership for new entrants mean the Euro is mandatory?
In practice, no.
The EU would have the UK back in a heartbeat, but with certain provisos regarding permanence. it couldn't be something that changes every 5 years. Anyway, we could have FoM without being a full member of the EU. It's just another thing to be negotiated.
He doesn’t seem to agree.
I haven’t agreed with the leader of the Labour Party as regards FoM since Blair was leader.
I’ve said what they can propose that could gain support from across the spectrum voter wise… visa waivers… at the next election. FoM will take much longer, and is unlikely to be proposed by Labour from a position of electoral weakness. A Labour government could push for it when seeking re-election… if they ever to get to that position.
We’ve arrived at a treaty and now we’ve got to make that treaty work
That treaty has renegotiation built into it… and all the parties will have to have their propositions about what it should entail come the next election, no matter what any of their leaders might say/claim in 2021.
Do you think many people will be debating the relative merits of freedom of movement when unemployment hits 4 million in June?
as it is now is accepting that he just said whatever he thought people wanted to hear to win the leadership contest, despite knowing it was BS?
Trouble is, it’s not the people voting a new party leader that have to be convinced, it’s the country as a whole.
I can’t understand some logic on the left. “So and so is not left enough ergo I can’t vote for them” so you’re happy to pave the way for Johnson et al to run roughshod over the country?
Do you think many people will be debating the relative merits of freedom of movement when unemployment…
Well those that who have lost their work due to strict visa, professional accreditation and customs requirements might be. Most won’t, but will be open to “getting rid of some of this red tape holding us back”.
Do you think many people will be debating the relative merits of freedom of movement when unemployment hits 4 million in June?
Shame, cos we can’t do as uncle Norman suggested in the 80s and get on our bikes to warmer climes abroad!
The EU would have the UK back in a heartbeat
I very much have my doubts on that. some might but I would expect vetos from leaders fed up with the UK
Shame, cos we can’t do as uncle Norman suggested in the 80s and get on our bikes to warmer climes abroad!
That was my point. There’s not going to be anyone who wants to come here. There will be plenty looking for opportunities elsewhere, and those opportunities are going to be considerably diminished.
That should present an opportunity for the Labour Party to point out who’s fault that is.
This summer should present a whole host of ‘opportunities’ to point out the failure of government. I doubt they’re going to handle the economics of the aftermath any better than they’ve dealt with the pandemic
We won’t be EU members again. Face it.
We wouldn't be where we are today if those eurosceptics had given up all the way back in 1992.
We’ve left the EUWe’re out.
We wouldn't be where we are today without the complacency and weakness shown by those supposedly on the same side as me.
Some of brexit is to do with 'owning the libs', revenge, well I think some of you actually deserve it.
We wouldn’t be where we are today if those eurosceptics had given up all the way back in 1992.
Okay, we might be able to become members again in 2048. If Scotland and Ireland don’t black ball us for decades of trying to makes things difficult for them. It’s not what the next general election will be about though (in England and Wales). Starmer needs to keep both eyes on that target.
We wouldn’t be where we are today without the complacency and weakness shown by those supposedly on the same side as me.
I think we need to add to that the monumental arrogance of David Cameron, George Osborne and that wing of the Tory party, who assumed that everyone in the country felt the same as them in their cosseted Notting Hill bubble.
Also the tacit complicity of Corbyn and the Lexiteer left of the Labour Party who were at best ambiguous about the EU, and in most cases as hostile to it as Farage and co
All coming together to bring us to where we are now
People blame the opportunism of Boris and Gove and the racist scaremongering of Farage but the blame needs to. E spread much more widely
Coronavirus aside - the UK now needs a visibly different style of leadership regarding the UKs relationship with Europe. We are going to get nowhere (good) with the same people who have vilified the EU/Brussels for the last 4+ years now trying to work together with them. Brexit is done, the UK has left - but now it's down to the UK to actually make it work.
What we need are a group of Eurocentrics rather than Eurosceptics who can work to define the UKs relationships. The era of points-scoring, brinksmanship and playing to the jeering-crowd needs to be finished - now is the time for government to appoint some intelligent people (gasp - experts) to pick through the pile of vomit that has been left of the pavement over the last 4 years, and see if it can find anything that can be salvaged, and work constructively with their EU counterparts.
As much as I have (had?) an ideological objection to Brexit, my biggest concern that, whist it was technically possible for the UK to be as strong/prosperous outside of Europe as it was within, in reality (at least in the medium term) the quality of the outcome is highly dependent on the quality and competency of our leadership. Now that all the noisy, shouty stuff is done, please god can the UK appoint people into these key roles who are capable of finding their arse with both hands?
In my opinion, there is a great deal of low hanging fruit - and with the right team (with the right attitude) the UK could come away with some significant wins - although "win" feels like the wrong term as it implies a loser. There are lots of mutually beneficial deals to be done.
whist it was technically possible for the UK to be as strong/prosperous outside of Europe as it was within, in reality
not it is not possible in any way
not it is not possible in any way
That's not an argument, it's just contradiction
What I said was:
As much as I have (had?) an ideological objection to Brexit, my biggest concern that, whist it was technically possible for the UK to be as strong/prosperous outside of Europe as it was within, in reality (at least in the medium term) the quality of the outcome is highly dependent on the quality and competency of our leadership
I agree it's not possible at this point - but only that it WAS technically possible at some point..... just extremely improbable
Sure, Norway and Switzerland seem to do very well for themselves.
Of course, they both have FOM and accept that they can't have total sovereignty...
I think Starmer has accepted Scotland is a lost cause and he's now focusing all his efforts on the North of England, hence his u-turn on FOM.
It's a good thing that Scottish Labour aren't expected to put together a coherent opposition message because Labour has absolutely nothing to offer Scotland now. Starmer accepts that all they can do is sit on the benches and bleat out 'SNP baaaad' every so often.
I can’t understand some logic on the left. “So and so is not left enough ergo I can’t vote for them” so you’re happy to pave the way for Johnson et al to run roughshod over the country?
I can't understand the enthusiasm for a leader tells you what you want to hear in order to get elected, then pivots 180 degrees when he's in office. I see the latest move is to allow undercover police to commit crimes with complete impunity.
FWIW I don't disagree with what he said regarding freedom of movement, at least in the medium term, but it was clearly on the cards when he was running for the leadership.
I think we need to add to that the monumental arrogance of David Cameron, George Osborne and that wing of the Tory party, who assumed that everyone in the country felt the same as them in their cosseted Notting Hill bubble.
To be fair labour had an EU referendum in their manifesto from the Tony Blair days, Lib Dems also campaigned for one. It was more a failure to understand the country as a whole across the centre of British politics. At least Cameron properly campaigned to stay in.
Blair is on the record many times as saying that despite an EU referendum being in the Labour manifesto, there was no way on earth he was ever going to hold one as he had a pretty good idea which way it would go.
He left it well alone as it was only ever a small hardcore of nutters in either party who actually wanted one anyway
People blame the opportunism of Boris and Gove and the racist scaremongering of Farage but the blame needs to. E spread much more widely
What about Blair and new labour? They forged ahead with the neoliberal project and opened the doors to foreign workers. Brexit was a fringe ambition of a few nutters, but Blair gave it legs by mobilising most of the white working class behind it after they saw their wages fall and jobs lost abroad or to imported labour. The conditions for brexit existed long before Cameron appeared.
Starmer's conversion to born-again lexiteer is a weird one. Probably a good thing though, and its prettty much labour's only option if they want to win back the red wall seats. Obviously he's calculating that when it comes to the crunch the remainers will jump back on board when faced with the prospect of 5 more years of the tories.
jobs lost abroad or to imported labour
Pick one. Labour reduced unemployment consistently, ‘till the 2008 crash. Low unemployment means you either welcome workers from elsewhere, or accept offshoring. If Blair had decided to keep ‘foreign’ workers out, to appease those who blame immigrants for their ills, more work would have gone abroad, not less. If your company can’t employ the right people, it moves operations to where it can.
Just watching him now. Still a disappointment.
Nothing to offer except repeated disagreement with everything the Govt are doing. No meaningful alternatives, simply "we don't like it and you're doing it wrong"
Managed to get the word Solidarity in at the end though. Red flags and all that.
Do you like what the govt are doing? Do you think that they're doing it wrong? Are millions of other people, including many who voted for them, thinking the same right now?
