Abstaining says both options are crap
Abstaining says that the opposition can't make its mind up, which is exactly how it will be presented by the government.
Abstaining says that the opposition can’t make its mind up
It really doesn't. It says that they have too many reservations, which they're already clearly stated, to support the bill, but they're not prepared to vote against it as this would lead to en even less appealing and considerably more dangerous outcome.
Most of us have managed to grasp this. Which bit are you struggling with?
I'm still awaiting your suggestions as to what he should do instead which would actually achieve something
Not some meaningless, PFJ-style, totally self-defeating piece of mindless lefty 'yaa-boo' tokenism
Something concrete that will actually achieve something for the people of this country, particularly the ones the labour party is meant to represent, given that this is hugely important moment in the middle of a pandemic with many lives at stake.
I'll not hold my breath, eh?
Abstaining says that the opposition can’t make its mind up, which is exactly how it will be presented by the government.
I disagree.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
Something concrete that will actually achieve something for the people of this country, particularly the ones the labour party is meant to represent, given that this is hugely important moment in the middle of a pandemic with many lives at stake.
A show of solidarity with comrades in Venezuela. That's whats needed at this critical time.
Sack another lefty as distraction.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
If they're going to abstain on these grounds they need to present something materially different. The only parliamentary mechanism to do that is to table amendments. That's how it works. It's irrelevant whether the amendments will succeed or not, it's about showing you have other ideas and challenging the government on it's own policy. Unless of course you think the purpose of the opposition is to say 'You're wrong, but we can't be arsed to come up with an alternative because there's no point'. If I did that at work when I disagreed with my boss I'd rightly get a roasting.
It really doesn’t.
It really does. Aside from being a complete failure of imagination, it's a sell out of exactly the people Labour should be representing. I guess that's why you support it.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
Either they support one of the options, or propose their own through an amendment. That's what's supposed to happen.
If they’re going to abstain on these grounds they need to present something materially different.
Like he did this morning? He's clearly pointed out what he believes needs to happen.
It’s irrelevant whether the amendments will succeed or not
Do you spend much of your time doing things that are utterly pointless, doomed to failure and probably likely to make the situation worse?
Like he did this morning? He’s clearly pointed out what he believes needs to happen.
A conviction so strongly held that he's going to invest no effort at all in trying to make it happen. If you think that anyone is going to remember what he said then you're deluded: all that will be reported is that the government won and Labour couldn't make its mind up.
Do you spend much of your time doing things that are utterly pointless, doomed to failure and probably likely to make the situation worse?
That's exactly what Starmer is doing: by abstaining he is guaranteeing that the vote will pass.
That’s exactly what Starmer is doing: by abstaining he is guaranteeing that the vote will pass.
*Sigh*
Yet again... there are no good options here. Only two available outcomes.
1. Boris gets his bill through
2. Boris's bill fails to pass and the Tory Right get to dump any restrictions and open up the economy, tell everyone to get back to work and allow herd immunity to run its course.
Thats your lot. Pick one. No amount of posturing will change those choices.
Binners aside from any considerations about what is effective or not, do you not understand that as far as the voting public is concerned, abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something. They look to their political representatives to take action, to put in the work required, to do everything in their power to make the lives of their constituents better. They don't expect them to declare that they don't have a position on something, and that's exactly what abstaining does in the minds of the voters.
Boris has spent the last few months portraying Starmer as a flip-flopping ditherer. This latest action plays straight into that.
abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something.
Only if you're an idiot.
I just just don't get the need for constant grandstanding. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Jezza proved that with his weekly spittle-flecked ten second rants for Youtube at PMQs. The sixth formers lapped it up. Everyone else just thought it made him look mental.
This is the same. You could indulge in some utterly pointless posturing that will achieve the square root of **** all, or you can just acknowledge the gravity of the situation and get on with the least worst option that will inflict the least damage on the country
I am the voting public and to me abstaining says both options are crap and we will not support either.
Sorry @dazh I disagree. Abstaining can also show that you don't agree with the gov and are also aware that a no vote would be detrimental. Conservative MP's, in fact all MPs are quite well known for doing this.....
The voting public who think otherwise are the ones that generally don't pay attention to politics and wouldn't care otherwise if their MP abstains or votes one way or the other.
My conservative MP abstained on the whole school meals thing, after spending a summer promoting children's charities and being very vocal about the while thing. It doesn't mean that she didn't have an opinion.
In fact, I doubt that most of the country GAS either way what Labour do! A GE is 4 years away and most people probably pay next to no attention as to what is going on!
This ^^
abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something.
Only if you’re an idiot.
The problem is, elections are decided by idiots. Though I agree abstaining is the lesser of the evils here.
I know Labour can't control the media and how their actions can be manipulated, but they do seem to be leaving themselves wide open here. An announcement this morning? WhyTF was he not all over the weekends press and TV with his alternative? Deciding policy by weekend press leaks is all the rage this year you know.
If you think that anyone is going to remember what he said t
I have a vague recollection of the two-week 'firebreak' proposal round half term to try to get ahead of the wave that's got us locked down atm. If voting on a doomed amendment helps with media cut-through then great do it, if not, what's the point? The story today is about Tory rebels and probably not the best time for a 'what would labour do differently' tale. Also, lives. It's not (just) a game.
Yor you can get on with doing the least worst option
Or doing nothing, for that is the centrist mantra. It's all too difficult, too risky, too expensive, too different. Lets just keep on going, even though we know we're heading over the cliff. That seems like an interesting way of inspiring people to support you, and it flies in the face of recent history.
Or do nothing? Bit like JC during the Brexit debate......
He was very quick to "follow the science" and call for an early two week firebreak after the sage committee recommended it on 21 September. He looked positive, committed, knew what needed doing.
Since then - apart from some barely reported barbs in PMQs asking why Boris didn't follow the science - he's become background noise again.
The story today is about Tory rebels
My concern is that the story today is about Tory rebels standing up for our rights to go about freely*rather than as a threat to Boris,
*and to die of Covid in a months time, though they are glossing over that too.
In 12 to 18 months COVID-19 will hopefully no longer be an issue (if the vaccines work). Starmer therefore just needs to remain as neutral as possible on an issue that simply won't be an issue at the next election.
As has already been mentioned, any position he takes will have no impact whatsoever on Government decisions/direction and he just risks leaving hostages to fortune. To stand any chance of winning under the current faux democracy we have requires Starmer to play the game, not simply repeat the mistakes of his predecessor.
an issue that simply won’t be an issue at the next election.
???
Of course it will be an issue. Boris will be campaigning off the back of it being beaten, which he will obviously take credit for, and the resultant economic recovery. He'll also say Starmer stood on the sidelines and sniped and complained whilst not proposing any solutions of his own, and people will believe him. Covid is not going to be something the tories want to avoid, it'll be their primary campaign subject. You could write the slogans now.
Of course it will be an issue.
I don't think it will still be an issue, if the vaccines work. Boris will be gone anyway, and the death toll, corruption and economic incompetence will leave them too vulnerable.
Labour may want to campaign on those issue, the Tories will be hoping to have 3-4 years of clear water behind them on it.
and the death toll, corruption and economic incompetence will leave them too vulnerable.
All of which will be explained away as unavoidable and/or borne of necessity in unprecedented times. I think you massively underestimate their ability to fool the public. The tory press will hail Boris as the Churchillian wartime leader who bravely steered his country through the minefield of the pandemic whilst labour did everything they could to obstruct him. Why would they do anything different?
In 4 years time unemployment, low wages and falling living standards are likely to be the main issues concerning most voters. People have short memories and COVID-19 will (hopefully) be a distant memory.
It doesn’t mean that she didn’t have an opinion.
Its a perfect example of how abstaining is used though. So allegedly gave a toss about school meals but didnt vote in order not to go against the party.
Assuming they werent paired with another MP who couldnt attend.
I just just don’t get the need for constant grandstanding. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Jezza proved that with his weekly spittle-flecked ten second rants for Youtube at PMQs. The sixth formers lapped it up. Everyone else just thought it made him look mental.
This is the same. You could indulge in some utterly pointless posturing that will achieve the square root of **** all, or you can just acknowledge the gravity of the situation and get on with the least worst option that will inflict the least damage on the country
Could have done with that bit of advice for Andy Burnham and his 1922 buddies.
Meanwhile, Liverpool comes out of tier 3.
I just just don’t get the need for constant grandstanding.
Stop doing it then.
Are you actually 12 years old?
Meanwhile, Liverpool comes out of tier 3.
Liverpool came out of Tier 3 because it has an ongoing mass testing programme
Nowhere else does.
You could argue that it got that testing programme because it 'bent the knee'. I'm sure that given Boris Johnsons somewhat strained personal history with the City, he derived a great deal of pleasure from watching it surrender so meekly.
I know a few scousers who get incredibly irritated when they see Matt Hancock praising the city and its cooperation
Anyway... drifting off topic...
Are you actually 12 years old?
It's that self-awareness thing again. Bravo!
You could argue that it got that testing programme because it ‘bent the knee’.
I'm a bit confused why pointless virtue-signalling opposition is fine for King in the North Andy, but not Starmer or his predecessor? From where I'm standing, Liverpool did the exact thing that you're now saying its ok for Starmer to do, but apparently that was a meek surrender while Starmer is a visionary pragmatist.
That's because your comparing apples and tugboats
Todays parliamentary vote is a completely different from the situation Manchester found itself in.
You'd be stretching things ridiculously to refer to Andy's actions at the time as 'pointless virtue-signalling'. He was representing the interests of his constituents against a Westminster Dictat that was going to be hugely damaging to them.
The most damaging option for the people Keir Starmer is meant to represent is for him to whip his MPs to vote against the government today. Given the shite or really shite options available, posturing will get nobody anywhere
So actually, their actions are motivated by the same thing, to achieve the same result.
Lapped it up like a spotty sixth former.
Are you actually 12 years old?
binners has picked a football team side and now will back it to the hilt regardless of what happens, and anyone who disagrees is a '6th former'/idiot/PFJ member (hahahahaha :|). It's really very tedious attention-seeking behaviour.
No doubt we'll get another 'hey don't make it all about me' while desperately trying to make it all about him.
I'm done with these political threads - anyone spots me posting in them please shoot me in the face.
binners has picked a
football teamside and now will back it to the hilt regardless of what happens
Ironically, one of his team - Marcus Rashford - seems to be doing a much better job of opposing the government than Captain Ditherer.
I’m done with these political threads – anyone spots me posting in them please shoot me in the face.
Yaaass!!! Get in.
Back of the net. Arise Sir Binners!!!
Bye bye looser
Go back to your six form and read some social worker books.
Thats what happens when you take on the smartest and funniest forum user on the plant
Binners is a winner. And winners back winners.
Thats why Binners will always back Special K. 500%. End of
He sees the genius
He sees how Sir Kee Kee is reclaiming our party for decent working people
How he's fighting the cancer of lefties and focusing on what matters and that's protecting us from immigrants and rape gangs, supporting our brave boys in the military and respecting our HRH etc
How he’s fighting the cancer of lefties...
You missed out the hummus eating vegans. Those of us who like plant based eastern mediterranean food are a threat to honest northern chip on the shoulder, black pudding eating society.
Lol
Corbz voted against of course, he's a very naughty boy.
Bless him. Welcomed back into his spiritual home...
Filing through the lobby with his fellow ERG members
copa is chewkw's new user name and I claim my £5.
