Yeh sorry Daz
Your point doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Could you explain further?
Weve left the EU, we’re in a transition, we’re not going back in. Support for a deal is simply engaging with the world as it is.
binners
Full Member
We all know who was calling the shots over the last 4 years and it wasn’t the cabinet members.Grandad, Seamas, Len and all the rest of the merry band of 70’s-throwback, Bennite Brexiteer dinosaurs were driving policy, from his sabbatical on his allotment during the referendum, to calling for article 50 to be triggered immediately, to gift wrapping the Brexiteer opportunist his huge majority to ‘Get Brexit Done’.
They own this mess as much as Boris, through their continued complicity. I’m sure Jezza will raise a little glass of carrot juice as we crash out, to mark his not insignificant contribution to something he’d wanted and campaigned for for decades
If only he'd gone against his instincts and followed SKS advice and called for a 2nd referendum.
Brexit is Cameron's fault.
If only he’d gone against his instincts and followed SKS advice and called for a 2nd referendum.
Too late by then. The damage was already done.
If only the leader of the labour party hadn't decided to kick back on the allotment for a couple of months during the referendum campaign and had instead represented the interests of the overwhelming number of his MP's, members, and voters.
But then why would a lifelong Brexiteer bother with that?
Starmer is left with no good options. From June 24th 2016 all anyone could do was attempt some damage limitation to try and prevent the worst. Starmers only options now are to support ANY deal, as that has to be better than no deal, or watch Boris crash us out with no deal, which doesn't really bear thinking about
Weve left the EU, we’re in a transition, we’re not going back in. Support for a deal is simply engaging with the world as it is.
I assume he'll be applying his six tests to any deal.
33 days ‘till the end of the transition period.
Things Starmer can’t do…
- call for a change to our exit date
- call for PM to rescind A50 notification
- call for extension to transition period
- cancel Brexit
All those opportunities have passed. That those opportunities have passed may well be partly his fault… but they have passed. They are no longer options for the UK. What is possible is avoiding No Deal… in 33 days… and counting…
The six tests are irrelevant now that the only alternative to passing whatever piss poor deal Johnson proposes is no deal on an immovable date.
He could potentially abstain, but the joker in the pack here is how many ERG nutjobs will vote against ANY deal as they always wanted a no-deal crash out anyway
I think he should abstain. But that’s just the … “you broke it, you fix it” … mentality I have about this. Leave the Tories to pick between their two super damaging options. But Starmer taking a different course doesn’t surprise or bother me, really. Should it?
All those opportunities have passed. That those opportunities have passed may well be partly his fault…
Come on. You're perfectly aware that this is all the fault of he who shall not be named.
I assume he’ll be applying his six tests to any deal.
Its way too late for any of that to be relevant. Your deal options are whatever Boris presents, nothing else is on the cards.
Come on. You’re perfectly aware that this is all the fault of he who shall not be named.
Yes it's important to remember that despite being current Labour leader and Brexit secretary at the time, nothing is Starmer's responsibility at all.
Yes it’s important to remember that despite being current Labour leader and Brexit secretary at the time, nothing is Starmer’s responsibility at all.
Someone else who prefers to say the opposite of what they mean? What do you think Starmer should do now?
nothing is Starmer’s responsibility at all
Strawman. Of course he is partly responsible.
Labour has two realistic options now… abstain or support a deal (if a vote even comes before the house this year… I doubt it will). Which should Starmer propose? I think he should have Labour abstaining… but either way, it would make little to no difference as to what happens at the end of the year… so I don’t see it as very exciting whatever he does (or says he would do… all still very hypothetical while Johnson fights the EU over minimum standards … and … er … fish?)
Strawman.
You're right: there's nothing in this thread to give that impression.
Is that reference to Binners saying someone else carries far more responsibility than Starmer for what happened up and ‘till the start of this year? Because if so… he is obviously right. And CTK is right that a third person carries even more of the responsibility… Starmer falls well below both of those two ex-party leaders if you want to waste effort playing the blame game, it’s not exactly controversial to say so. And then there’s Johnson and Gove…
It's funny that despite being labelled as rabid cultists, 'the left' of Labour are mostly able to accept JC turned out to be a crap leader and has made mistakes over AS - whereas according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong.
I think he should abstain or let people vote with their conscience - it will likely make no difference anyway. Should have used the whip to oppose the government's international willy waving defence spending increases though, instead of welcoming it.
‘the left’ of Labour are mostly able to accept JC turned out to be a crap leader and has made mistakes over AS
Me.
according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong
Not me.
it will likely make no difference anyway
I agree.
according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong
Most? Say he can literally do no wrong?? I don't think anyone has said this.
Deputy:
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1333013472536391681?s=21
Leader:
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1333035220455579654?s=21
Fallout from JLM2020 … it looks as if you can’t even call JLM “white supremacists” any more… it’s political correctness gone mad. [final straw that led to Twitter banning the editor of the Canary I believe, as she criticised the deputy and leader for attending using that phrase]
On Labour having just a thin, ineffective, just about pointless, hobson’s choice in front of them if it comes to a vote on a deal:
https://twitter.com/paulbernaluk/status/1332963465045139458?s=21
I’m trying to figure out what’s up in Labour today.
Is it International Solidarity with Palestine day? If so did Jewish Labour decide to call their one day conference on the same day, forcing Kier to ‘pick a side’ or just a coincidence?
Is it seen to be AS to support Palestine now?
Basically, why level and type of bullshit are we wading through today?
I’m sure that with everything being so quiet in this country at the moment, Palestine is at the forefront of everyone’s thoughts.
Can anyone fill me in on what the state of affairs is presently in Venezuela? I’ve not been paying attention as much as I should of late. I know, I know.... but I’ve been busy.
Are there any online petitions I could sign or any retweets I could make to express my solidarity?
The IDF are terrified of retweets expressing solidarity
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
All this seems to support the python's view of the working class
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
Do you know how much international influence the UK government has on foreign governments at the moment?
None. Zero. We're a parochial little isolationist, backward-gazing island busy hammering away at our own feet with an ice pick.
Do you know how much international influence the UK opposition party has on foreign governments at the moment?
Even less than zero
But here we are in 2020 and whats the Labour party busy having a dust up over? Israel and Palestine.
Do you think anyone in Israel and Palestine will actually notice?
And while engaged in yet more pointlessly cyclical bickering and vitrue-signalling, there's actually one or two things going on closer to home that HM opposition might be better concentrating on instead. A global pandemic. Rampant government corruption and incompetence. The impending Brexit economic shitstorm. The most brutal recession this country has ever seen. You know... that type of thing...
So you do agree that anti semitism in the labour party isn't anywhere near as big an issue as has been made out and there are far more important things to worry about. Good to have you on board.
So you do agree that anti semitism in the labour party isn’t anywhere near as big an issue as has been made out and there are far more important things to worry about.
Can't speak for binners but it seems to me that as Corbyn missed the chance to draw a line under the issue properly, and thus allowed it to drag on, it will have to be ignored, sadly, while more pressing national issues take priority.
A lose/lose for all sides.
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
Yeah, god forbid you devote those precious seconds to something other than yourself. Of course binners doesn't think of anyone BUT himself so, you know, it's hard for him to get to grips with the concept.
It's all the Labour party can talk about though..
Must not mention brexit
Must not discuss a vision for the future
Must not mention JC
No plan for the Pandemic
The ultimate smash and grab victory will be eeeezeee if they just learn to zip it for 3 years👍
LOL doubling down on the **** all foreigners then binbins?! Jesus wept.
And while engaged in yet more pointlessly cyclical bickering and vitrue-signalling
I suppose, given that you've championed insular, selfish politics, it's not surprising that you've also adopted its language.
I suppose, given that you’ve championed insular, selfish politics
And where exactly have I done that?
I'm merely posing the question of how it looks to most voters when a party trying to establish itself as a serious contender for government is endlessly wanging on about Palestine while we're in the middle of a massive global pandemic, there's rampant government corruption and incompetence and the small matter of the huge looming recession and mass unemployment on the horizon, with a disastrous Brexit adding to the chaos
You'd think, given how pressing these issues are for the country, that those on the left may temporarily park their favourite hobby-horses to concentrate on more pertinent affairs
But no...
Public displays of solidarity it must be.
And where exactly have I done that?
Several people think you have on this page. But I'm fully aware that you're not one for self-reflection and expect you to self-entrench further into little-Englander politics, while telling yourself it's about something slightly less ignoble.
Several people think you have on this page.
Well if several people think it then it must be correct then.
Far be it from me to have an opinion that differs from the committee
QED
Several people think you have on this page.
That's it case closed?
I see something presumably criticising Monty Python, for some reason; a link to a correspondence criticising the IHRA definition for saying that "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour” is an example of antisemitism, amongst other things. And someone saying that antisemitism in the labour party is less of a big issue than other, er, issues. And others hiding so far behind sarcasm I'm hard pushed to work out what it is they're trying to articulate. Like that guy in Father Ted, you know the one. Must find a gif.
Okay, no gifs but here's a pic: Father Jessup, 
the most sarcastic priest in Ireland, from Kicking Bishop Brennan Up The Arse
.
endlessly wanging on about Palestine
The main reason I care about Palestine is after a very good lifelong friend once did some work in Ramallah about 15 years ago. He worked for a human rights organisation and previously had spent time in Sri Lanka and Sierra Leone and had seen some pretty harrowing stuff. Then he went to Palestine, where his driver and security guards told him stories of their family members who were murdered by the IDF. Some of them kids who were shot whilst in the playground. Now I can't verify any of the stories he told me, and he couldn't either, but I know him well enough to believe that he believed what he was told. He came back from Ramallah with a bad case of PTSD and never really recovered. So yeah, I'll keep 'wanging on' about Palestine, because at the end of the day we're talking about kids and innocent people being murdered by an unaccountable military and government, under the full glare of an international community which doesn't seem to care.
Nobody is disputing how unremittingly awful the situation has been for decades. Its absolutely horrendous. As is Syria and Libya and Afghanistan and plenty of other places
Thats not the point
Do you know how much Benjamin Netanyahu cares about the opinion of the leader of the labour party in the UK?
I doubt he even knows who he is.
My point is that the labour party should be committing its efforts to things it can actually influence, maybe some of the enormous challenges presently facing the country, not wasting its energies on things completely beyond its control over which it can exert zero influence
I think this is demonstrating beautifully the problem the Labour movement faces - an idealogical side where everything matters and tackling them all as a matter of principle is a "higher calling" that can't be compromised, and another pragmatic side that just wants to get into government and start fixing what it can, right here, right now and will get to the rest later.
Unless the two sides can agree on a common enemy to fight, rather than each other, Boris will be laughing!
and another pragmatic side that just wants to get into government and start fixing what it can
The current opposition are unencumbered by even the second part of that.
Labour absolutely have to unite to present a useful, credible, opposition.
Even then, with the burdens of wanting to do things about half right, it will be difficult.
Well put, MCTD - encapsulates why I'm so depressed about all this infighting...
Of course binners doesn’t think of anyone BUT himself so, you know, it’s hard for him to get to grips with the concept.
I'd just like to point out that this little dig at Binners' character is complete and utter bollocks and will come as a laughably incorrect accusation by anyone who has made even a passing acquaintance of the man.
Carry on.
