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the problem you have here is that for an awful lot of people, I’d say a majority, neoliberalism has delivered them a nice comfortable standard of living, nice house in a nice area, nice Audi parked in the drive, good school to send the kids too, laptops and iPhones, a few grands worth of carbon fibre mountain bike to go and play on… etc, etc
The problem with all this, is that this was all 'delivered' via cheap credit, and with cheap goods made possible by cheap overseas exploited labour, via privatisation of the education system ('academies'), the sell off of public resources, and a strong pound bolstered by Western imperialism. The reality of all this, which is only now sinking in for most, is a grossly overinflated housing market, a shrinking economy, less decent paying jobs, shoddily built housing, poor maintenance of existing infrastructure, failing schools and increasing debt. That's before we even go anywhere near the genocide and demonisation of 'others'. So we're now looking at the yawning chasm of increasing personal debt, negative equity, homelessness, joblessness, collapsing public services, education and healthcare, and steadily increasing costs of all those previously cheap goods.
So that's worked out well. Still waiting for any Starmerists to explain how their Lord and Saviour is going to reverse all this, and deliver the neoliberal utopia that Blair promised us.
The problem with all this, is that this was all ‘delivered’ via cheap credit, and with cheap goods made possible by cheap overseas exploited labour, via privatisation of the education system (‘academies’), the sell off of public resources, and a strong pound bolstered by Western imperialism.
And you seriously think that most people care about that as they sign the lease deal on their new Audi and upgrade their iphone to the latest model, while ordering a takeaway from Deliveroo?
You think that going in to an election saying that all this is evil and needs to stop is going to deliver you power?
Good luck with that
The reality of all this, which is only now sinking in for most,
It really isn't sinking in, slowly or rapidly, with 'most' people at all. Hence the last election result. As long as they keep getting new shiny things to play with, 'most' people don't appear to give a shit about any of that.
At the risk of getting repetitive (perish the thought!) - we need to deal with the world as it is, not with how we'd like it to be
And you seriously think that most people care about that as they sign the lease deal on their new Audi and upgrade their iphone to the latest model, while ordering a takeaway from Deliveroo?
No. The vast majority only care about the 'now'. The problem with that, is that 10, 20 years down the line, you're ****ed. Or rather; your kids are, because they're the ones who can't afford housing, education, access to decent healthcare etc. And are in debt.
You think that going in to an election saying that all this is evil and needs to stop is going to deliver you power?
Is a good point. So what's Sir Keith's plan?
At the risk of getting repetitive (perish the thought!) – we need to deal with the world as it is, not with how we’d like it to be
Problem is, we aren't; all those problems I mentioned, are real, and they're here, right now. We're 24 years on from 'Cool Britannia', and things can only get shitter. Unless there is a seismic shift in public attitudes. You've got to start somewhere; maintaining the status quo will be disastrous. So again; what's Sir Keith's plan?
Problem is, we aren’t; all those problems I mentioned, are real, and they’re here, right now. We’re 24 years on from ‘Cool Britannia’, and things can only get shitter. Unless there is a seismic shift in public attitudes. You’ve got to start somewhere; maintaining the status quo will be disastrous.
So how do you propose achieving that seismic shift in public attitudes?
Well, railing against it won't achieve anything. We know that. Piously lecturing people and telling them they're wrong about everything and need to change their ways just breeds resentment. It certainly won't get you elected, thats for sure. Otherwise the Green party would be in Government. This country is a (small c) conservative place and people hate being told what to do at the best of times. See all the 'Nanny State' headlines when the most modest changes are proposed by government
So again; what’s Sir Keith’s plan?
I would imagine that it's similar to what Biden has done in the States. Try not to scare the horses and show yourself to be a safe pair of hands, then once in power go on to deliver a far more radical agenda than you originally proposed, which has largely been met with approval even from Republicans.
I certainly hope so, anyway
From this mornings Guardian:
How Biden's $2tn infrastructure plan seeks to achieve racial justice
Still waiting for any Starmerists to explain how their Lord and Saviour is going to reverse all this,
That seems like a reasonable criticism...I don't like Starmer because in the year or so since his rise to the leadership of an fraction-ridden opposition party he's not come up with a credible plan to reverse the decline of western capitalisation that's been steadily getting worse sine the 1970's...I mean, what's he been doing with his time? I can see why one wouldn't vote for a slacker like that.
So how do you propose achieving that seismic shift in public attitudes?
Snowball effect. You start small, with local level campaigning/boots on the ground activism. The Women's Suffrage movement started with a small group of dedicated activists. The US Civil Rights Movement gained huge momentum because one woman sat in the 'wrong' seat on a bus. It's about showing people what CAN be achieved, and galvanising them into believing something can work. History has shown what change can be achieved from the smallest of actions.
I would imagine that it’s similar to what Biden has done in the States. Try not to scare the horses and show yourself to be a safe pair of hands, then once in power go on to deliver a far more radical agenda than you originally proposed, which has largely been met with approval even from Republicans.
And you genuinely believe Sir Keith can/would do that, do you?
He's made his position very clear on banks, landlords, nurses' pay, foreign affairs, protests, Mandelson's talking about a low-tax low-spend LP. Where's the problem? People elected one tory government, it's unlikely that they will shift their preference to another tory government, hence his position in the polls.
If you wanted to see change and challenge injustice without an election on the horizon you would campaign and fully support workers trying to defend their living standards and jobs and defending the right to protest as part of the democratic process....
And you genuinely believe Sir Keith can/would do that, do you?
It's not a matter of belief, but yeah I think he can. And for those on the thread saying "Tory lite", it would be significantly better than the successive Tory heavy governments delivered by his predecessor.
I would imagine that it’s similar to what Biden has done in the States.
The reason Biden has been able to do what he is doing is because he engaged with the left of his party and created some semblance of unity before the election which enabled him to win it, and then followed through on his promises to address the issues which were important to the left which created the environment which enabled them to get through congress.
Starmer has done the exact opposiite to what Biden did, and hasn't got a hope of repeating Biden's success. Not that he wants to anyway, because as I've said many times, Starmer and his rightwing travellers have already achieved what they set out to do. There is no plan to win an election because they have no ambition to so.
Yes agreed, he's been useless so far but you have to give him to the election.
He could do a David Moyes.
because he engaged with the left of his party
True. But they were up for that engagement. Of course, them backing him happened during an election campaign, when minds were focused on uniting to unseat an incumbent incompetent right wing administration. Perhaps in the UK they’ll get behind someone new taking the reigns of the Labour Party close to an election… if the party has the sense to replace Starmer then (unlikely). This far out from an election, the battle is still on for revenge over Corbyn and Long-Bailey being pushed aside. The Conservatives aren’t facing a united front from the left… they aren’t facing much that will concern them at all in fact. Labour continue to be a gift for Johnson.
True. But they were up for that engagement.
And those in the labour party weren't? Despite voting for him in their tens of thousands?
The membership voted for him, yes. Then the Corbyn and Long-Bailey stuff happened and many on “the Left” (not necessarily party members) turned on Starmer big time.
Then the Corbyn and Long-Bailey stuff happened and many on “the Left” (not necessarily party members) turned on Starmer big time.
Given the fact that the primary promise in his leadership campaign was to 'unify' the party and resolve previous factional differences, it's strange that members on the left decided he wasn't to be trusted when almost immediately he sacked his defeated left wing opponent, kicks the previous left wing leader out of the party whilst insinuating that everyone on the left who supports him is a racist, and then starts expelling long serving left wing members and activists from the party for protesting the fact. I literally have no idea why 'the left' turned on him, clearly they were being way too paranoid with their 6th form bunker mentality. It's tragic really, because had they not turned on him, they could have got fully behind his promised radical progressive policies... oh.
when almost immediately he sacked his defeated left wing opponent, kicks the previous left wing leader out of the party
You make it sound like he didn't have good reason to do so.
He had very good reason in both cases
They were both stupid and pig-headed when caught on the wrong side of a particularly sensitive argument. They've nobody to blame but themselves, no matter how many lefty toys come flying out of the cot.
With their stubborn refusal to simply offer an apology for their stupidity they both left him absolutely no option. I'm afraid thats the reality once you remove your tinfoil helmet and leave your bunker.
If you want to defend Corbyn or Wrong-Daily and portray this as some terrible injustice then fine, but don't expect many to agree with you outside the other sixth form cult members.
It’s just more of the same self-anointed victim status ‘the left’ seem to love wallowing in and the imagined conspiracies they see at every turn
If you want to defend Corbyn or Wrong-Daily, then fine
I'm not defending anyone, but this excuse that 'the left' (I'm still curious as to who you think they are BTW) is being paranoid is ridiculous. Starmer and the people behind him pulling the strings clearly have an agenda, and it certainly isn't to do what Biden has done in the US. Or maybe he doesn't and everything that's happened in the past year is just a result of his incompetent leadership? Yes, perhaps that's the most obvious explanation, well done you've persuaded me.
The vast majority only care about the ‘now’. The problem with that, is that 10, 20 years down the line, you’re ****. Or rather; your kids are, because they’re the ones who can’t afford housing, education, access to decent healthcare etc. And are in debt.
Labour/whoever has time to start that conversation. As a society, we have to look at long term social, environmental and economic planning for the greater good, and making short term "me, me, me" as unacceptable as drink driving. There's time ahead of the next election to take that moral high ground, on the back of the blatant Tory short termism and cronyism.
Starmer and the people behind him pulling the strings clearly have an agenda
Well it’d be a bloody useless political leader who didn’t!
Maybe it’s dragging the Labour Party back to being a viable party of potential government and away from the electorally catastrophic shambles delivered by the last regime?
Imagine that? Complete madness! Madness, I tell you! Why on earth would anyone want to do that?
It’s not a matter of belief, but yeah I think he can.
Based on what? Because we haven't seen any evidence so far.
Maybe it’s dragging the Labour Party back to being a viable party of potential government and away from the electorally catastrophic shambles delivered by the last regime?
So you mean back towards the failed neoliberal project as started by Blair, and which fell right into tory hands, thus making it very easy for them to gain power? IE; doing nothing other than what those currently in real power, ie the oligarchs, bankers and media barons, want?
Please explain how that will achieve the major changes our society actually needs? I'm dying to find out.
It’s just more of the same self-anointed victim status
Says the man who has banned himself from his local pub 'cause all the other punters were being so horrid.
All this thread has succeeded in doing now is make me wish that this afternoon I could have a stroll down to my local (the Irwell Works Brewery, so not very Islington Wine Bar, I’m afraid Ernie) and just sit with a pint or three and the Guardian
Do it - just stroll in and tell them you're sorry and that you've calm down now. Blame it all on drinking on an empty stomach or something.
Perhaps leave the Guardian at home.
And maybe wear something like this :
Join me on Tuesday, along with Angela Rayner, Mark Drakeford and Carolyn Harris, to get insights into how Welsh Labour can win this election.
Here's a hint: it involves all of you doing your bit, because it's your collective action that'll mean Welsh Labour in government keeps helping people across Wales.
Election Strategy Rally and Calling Voters
with Keir, Angela, Carolyn and Mark
Tuesday 6 April, 6.30pm
Online via ZoomI'll RSVP now
Working alongside members like you is one of my favourite things about leading our party. And it’s never more important (or more fun) than right now, during a tight election campaign.
Labour has been fighting elections for more than 100 years and we do it through the strength of our movement, conversation by conversation.
The pandemic has made this a different sort of election, but it hasn't changed that we win when as many of us pitch in as possible. So play your part and sign up now - I look forward to talking with you about this some more then.
Until Tuesday,
Keir.
I know he didn't write it but it is a bit cringe isn't it?
Says the man who has banned himself from his local pub ’cause all the other punters were being so horrid.
Being horrid? I told a bunch of racist *s that they were a bunch of racist *s. They still drink there so I drink somewhere else where the clientele is less knuckle-dragging.
The point I was making is that I really, really, really, really, really, really really fancy sitting in the pub with a pint and the Guardian. A simple pleasure we’ve all been denied for what seems like an eternity 🙁
Please explain how that will achieve the major changes our society actually needs? I’m dying to find out.
Starmer is a mainstream politician, with a mainstream politician's view of the world, I think most folk are just looking for him to be a less shitty version of what we have got now. I wouldn't invest your hopes of radical change in one middle aged ex-lawyer if I were you.
They still drink there so I drink somewhere else
So it turns out that the clientele of your local pub which you offered up as 'your average voter' isn't your average voter after all. It's just a pub were everyone happens to be racist, misogynist, and homophobic. Perhaps you should have mentioned that in your orignal rant against northern working-class?
But anyway why are you avoiding them? Is that the best strategy to win them over? What would Keir Starmer do - how would he win them over? To get back on topic.
Or are you next going to tell me that winning them over isn't necessary and the whole thing was a red herring which you threw in for no reason?
Btw how long were you going to your local before you clocked that they were all racist, misogynist, and homophobic?
Binners you’re clearly in the wrong party.
https://twitter.com/barnsleynip/status/1378894301476835331?s=21
🤣
I don’t like Starmer because in the year or so since his rise to the leadership of an fraction-ridden opposition party he’s not come up with a credible plan
You could have stopped there.
Btw how long were you going to your local before you clocked that they were all racist, misogynist, and homophobic?
You might have slept through the last decade… but there was this referendum against political correctness and sponging foreigners… or something like that… the campaigns for which emboldened people to “tell it like it is”.
Yeah I missed the referendum on political correctness a decade ago. Shame as I would have liked to have voted in that one.
So basically you are suggesting that binners probably discovered about 10 years ago that his local pub was full of racist misogynist homophobes?
I wonder why up until then the punters were so reticent about their bigtory. Perhaps they hadn't wanted to appear rude?
Ernie, Comrade, fascinating though it is to discuss my drinking habits, we should probably get back to the subject in hand.
Binners you’re clearly in the wrong party
I think that will be deleted pretty sharpish when Greggs legal department see it
I doubt many will want to associated with that gang of nobheads. On reading their Twitter feed I’ve changed my mind about Labour needing to worry about them splitting the vote in Hartlepool
I reckon they’ll be nailed on to lose their deposit. Absolute clowns!
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
Not because Hartlepool is full of racists?? This is so confusing.
I reckon your drinking habits are not only fascinating binners but easier to understand.
So just to recap, when did you stop drinking with racists?
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
Totally agree. So do you accept that Starmer should accept responsibility for that, or are you still clinging to the lefties/eu ate my homework excuse?
Not because Hartlepool is full of racists?? This is so confusing.
I thought it was someone else accusing everyone in Hartlepool of being racist
I reckon your drinking habits are not only fascinating binners but easier to understand.
His drinking habits are probably more explained by a very steep hill and decent quality beer
So just to recap, when did you stop drinking with racists?
When did you stop beating your wife?
Anyway who does the Croydon Communist vote for these days?
Totally agree. So do you accept that Starmer should accept responsibility for that, or are you still clinging to the lefties/eu ate my homework excuse?
He's not inspiring people is he, it could be a keeping their powder dry to stop Boris stealing anything half decent in term of policy. But he needs to be able to inspire the foot soldiers who post the leaflets and it doesn't seem to be happening. It may be a bit harsh to put it on Starmer as his team is tepid at best and the talent pool very limited
The loaded question is "have you stopped beating your wife?" as it requires only a yes or no answer, not "when did you stop beating your wife?"
In the case of binners it wasn't a loaded question as there was no presumption of guilt - he had already informed us that he used to drink in a pub full of racists.
Quite why he needed to tell us isn't clear as apparently there's another pub he can go to.
The loaded question is “have you stopped beating your wife?” as it requires only a yes or no answer, not “when did you stop beating your wife?”
You appear to have misunderstood a mainstay of our cultural conciousness.
*when did you stop* is a trope understood by apparently fewer than one would have thought - it absolutely is loaded, and to the brim.
What Labour fanbois/anti-fanbois have to reconcile is that there are plenty of people just like me who either do, or do not, give a proverbial **** either way. I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green and Other in a mixed bag of Borough/County/General elections over the last 30 years.
The only thing that unites the ^above was who they were up against, in the seat they were contesting. I have only ever voted against the Conservative candidate, by favouring the candidate most likely to unseat them. Ever. And i have voted in Windsor.
I have never voted for anyone.
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/1379208239942922242?s=19
Reconcile that one.
People appear to want the policies that Labour could and should offer, and have offered but they want them from the Tories who won't offer them.
What an absolute mess Labour are in. This is what happens when you stand for nothing.
A seat won twice under Corbyn's leadership.
Reconcile that one.
Because asking people if they agree to certain policies is not linked to who they vote for as they like the other stuff the party they actually vote for more, i.e. Brexit, vaccines etc,.
Because asking people if they agree to certain policies is not linked to who they vote for as they like the other stuff the party they actually vote for more, i.e. Brexit, vaccines etc,.
Not linked is a stretch.
But your second point stands. (Brexit has happened though.)
So Starmer's spy is checking and chucking the membership, people who have social concerns, are socialists, are active and would like to be represented politically. They then form eg NIP and the LP is complaining about sectarian splitters who are not giving their support to the party which expelled them. Brexit picked up protest votes and we can expect the NIPs to do the same. The whippet and Greggs graphic was reet good, they need to be ranting for more coal in every bath.
That article bi_n_daft posted is probably depressingly accurate. It's no wonder the Tories are busy stoking a culture war at every opportunity. Its paying off massively for them in just this sort of constituency
That article depressingly nails it.
A real democracy should ensure that minorities should not be sidelined by the majority. Johnson & Co know that to go against that, and intentionally and whole heartedly be the party "for" the majority, leaving the opposition as being seen as the party moaning about the treatment of minorities, is a winning strategy. At least it is here, for now.
And on personalities... I challenge anyone to claim that they honestly think that Starmer can win the next general election... even if they think that he is pulling Labour closer to winning one eventually. No one really thinks that he can, do they?
No one really thinks that he can, do they?
Unfortunately I think he's the Neil Kinnock. His job is to try and repair the damage done to the party and get it to be viewed as credible again. Thats a mammoth task with the complete mess he inherited. I increasingly get the feeling that as a realist, he knows this.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
Johnson is the arch-opportunist. I'm sure he's already itching to call an election and is just waiting for the first available moment for it not to look TOO crass in the wake of so many deaths
Full poll:
It's all Corbyn's fault.
It’s all Corbyn’s fault.
The Corbyn Continuity Party is presently polling at 2%
If you want to blame anyone, I'd say blame the boffins who developed the vaccine that he's busy shamelessly claiming all the credit for and the medical professionals he's hiding behind
If, as appears to be the case, the Tories do win the seat (and I've put money on them doing so) then we'll definitely be having a general election before the end of the year. No Question. I'm sure Starmer and co are thinking this. They certainly should be.
Our descent into Banana Republic status continues apace
I think he would be better off being ambitious. Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.
BTW Corbyn inherited a complete mess also. As did Theresa May as did Bojo. Politics is messy.
Forget the mess and move forward.
His job is to try and repair the damage done to the party and get it to be viewed as credible again.
And yet he appears to be making things worse in the areas where labour lost all those voters. It's almost like the fantasy about Corbyn being the only problem was just that. The reality is that this goes all the way back to Blair and his failure to to redress the results of thatcherism. As I've been saying for years, it wasn't Corbyn and McDonnell who turned labour into the 'metropolitan liberal elite'. Corbyn and McDonnell had a chance to repair some of that damage after brexit, but unfortunately they allowed themselves to be swayed by the very people who are now in control and about to lose seats like Hartlepool. Starmer's catastrophic second referendum policy has a lot to answer for.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry
FFS a few weeks ago you were ranting that labour had 4 more years despite me saying it could be next year or 2023 at the latest. Anyway glad you finally agree. So now do you also agree that Starmer needs to stop dithering and get off his arse and start spelling out what a labour govt would do?
If you want to blame anyone, I’d say blame the boffins who developed the vaccine that he’s busy shamelessly claiming all the credit for and the medical professionals he’s hiding behind
As long as we're clear that it's nothing to do with Starmer.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
No-one will give a crap about a public inquiry. There will be a window of opportunity where CV19 is largely controlled, the economy is growing, and the long term impacts of Brexit have yet to be felt. I think maybe late next year.
I think he would be better off being ambitious. Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.
When the election campaign inevitably starts, he'll have to be. It'll be interesting to see how that goes, as he'll have to go on the offensive. I agree that he's been far too timid in going after the government, but I can understand why. Like it or not, the majority do not think this is the time to be arguing with each other politically. They think its a time for 'unity'. Once we get an election, that all changes
The Tories are just going to focus on one issue. The forthcoming Tory election campaign, in a nutshell: we gave you vaccinations and now you can all go back to the pub and book a week in Benidorm. Aren't we brilliant? Look at the EU... what did we tell you?
As for Hartlepool, when I put my bet on a couple of weeks ago, the odds for the Tories and Labour were about the same at 1.8-1.9/1. They are now:
Tories 1.5/1
Labour 2.4/1
The culture war trumps all (as the polling in Hartlepool shows- people want labours policies but knee-jerk reaction is that BLM is bad, statues are good)
Johnson has this figured, Starmer knows it too, but no matter how many flags he stands by, its not sticking.
And that's crux, what should Starmer be saying & doing to beat Johnson?
https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1379346138755694595?s=19
Starmer knows it too, but no matter how many flags he stands by, its not sticking.
Because people aren't stupid. When they see a politician who doesn't stand by his principles they don't trust or believe them for fairly obvious reasons. Starmer is the embodiment of the metropolitan, internationalist, woke elite. No amount of flag waving is going to persuade anyone any different. He'd be far better off fighting his corner from the position he campaigned on in his leadership campaign, but he's already forgotten most of that.
The culture war trumps all (as the polling in Hartlepool shows- people want labours policies but knee-jerk reaction is
that BLM is bad, statues are good)that they're not going to vote for people who keep shouting at them that they are racists, xenophobes and tories
FIFY
The head of a Tory think-tank thinks the main problem with Labour's leader is that he's not Tory enough.
Brilliant analysis.
Because people aren’t stupid.
I think all recent politics in this country proves otherwise
When they see a politician who doesn’t stand by his principles they don’t trust or believe them for fairly obvious reasons.
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
I'd say that in the UK at the moment, the opposite appears to be true
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
He campaigned on a platform of "getting Brexit done", which he did. He was also up against a chronically divided Labour party.
what should Starmer be saying & doing to beat Johnson?
That's what I've been asking the Starmerists on here. So far, nobody has come up with anything more than 'he should be like Biden'. Seeing as how Starmer has been Labour leader for a year now, and it's been an absolute disaster, isn't it perhaps time to stop blaming Corbyn/the 'left' and whatever other right-wing rhetoric some people seem to have swallowed? And maybe have a look at what is really causing the problem,; the right of the party, those in the most senior positions, who are orchestrating this dismal shambles. Those who refused to back Corbyn, despite him winning two leadership elections, those who still want to push the failed neoliberal agenda, those who have little but their own middle class elite interests at heart. People like Margaret Hodge; screamed 'antisemite' at Corbyn, yet used racist rhetoric to win a constituency election. Margaret Hodge, who is the heir to a steel trading company worth billions, which profited from the Apartheid regime in South Africa. 'Represents' some of the poorest and most deprived communities in the UK. That's just one example. Blair, of course, went to Eton. Are these the kind of people Labour's traditional supporters can really trust to act in all their interests? No. And that is really why Labour have lost their way; by forcing out trade union representation, and instead courting big business etc, Labour became a party for elite interests. Having the odd 'working class' token figures such as Jess Phillips or Angela Rayner, is a distraction, much like the tories token people of colour such as Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak etc.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1301866611834527746?s=20
That, right there, tells the story of how Labour are no longer attractive to working class people. Politics is an elitists game, and unless more working class people become politically engaged and involved, there will be no change to the status quo. So I'll ask once again; what is Starmer doing to change anything?
I think all recent politics in this country proves otherwise
So on top of calling them all racists you also tell them they're thick? And you wonder why they don't vote labour?
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
There's two aspects to this. FIrstly he doesn't do the above, and actually appears to listen to and respect the views of people in places like Hartlepool rather than calling them thick racists for supporting brexit. Second, he has very good PR who have successfully created a brand around him of someone who isn't perfect, but gets things done and isn't afraid to make mistakes. People don't want a saint for a leader, they just want someone who isn't afraid to stick their neck out, and Boris does that very well. On both these points Starmer fails miserably.
go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
You realise most of the voters won't even know there was an public inquiry and those that did will just say "well, any other party would have done the same".
You just can't reason with idiots, you need to fool them - something the Tory party have been doing for decades.
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
A few thoughts,
Boris generally proves that a bluffer with a posh accent will go far in this country, it's not as easy as it was and will probably never be as easy again
He was up against poor competition in the leadership race, he's arguably slipped through in a generational change in the senior conservative politicians
Whatever you think about him he's a proven communicator who is able to simplify things to sell them to the voters in a positive fashion
He thinks the UK is a great place to be and sells that idea
And then you look at the general election choice of him or the guy who prefers Venezuela then it's not surprising he's PM
Starmer is going to struggle against the vaccine success and the lack of talent and ideas from his front bench. It's not the death spiral into irrelevance of the libdems but it's not a path to victory
More importantly for labour is the what next? The conservatives have some talent coming through (as well as plenty of awful duds), their next leader is likely to be BAME, and at this rate the first BAME PM. All the shouting about their recent race report gets a hard time when they can point to the first BAME PM after two women PMs it should make people wonder what labour is for
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
And that is really why Labour have lost their way; by forcing out trade union representation, and instead courting big business etc, Labour became a party for elite interests.
I would counter that with the view that the labour movement has been hollowed out by identity politics where debates on Palestine/ gender recognition/ issue if the day take over from coming up with a way of sorting out social care or other core issues
The traditional labour voter with a job, possibly a house, car, kids struggling in school doesn't register these as important in their struggle to get by
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
That may well be but he's not one of the "people of Scotland"
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
You are right of course. My mistake. The point still stands however; he's from a very privileged background, is extremely wealthy, and is a member of the social elite. Heath, Thatcher, Major and May all went to grammar schools. The bottom line is that our society has grown steadily more and more conservative since the 'socialism' of the post war era, and people ever more in thrall of those with wealth and power. The only way to break that cycle, is to field actual working class alternatives to the old school tie brigade; Starmer is nowhere near that. When the choices are between two men in suits, and one has a much better act, it's a no-brainer to see which one will win.
I would counter that with the view that the labour movement has been hollowed out
But that's exactly why they were hollowed out, because in the Blair era working class interests and people were sidelined, leaving the space for fringe interests like Palestine and gender recognitioon etc. The woke elitist image of the labour party is a direct result of Blair shifting the focus of the party from the regional working class to metropolitan middle classes.
Can we call Starmer a homophobe now?
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1379164412632793090
So, in answer to my question at the weekend... he's an idiot, not a bigot. To not remember May's misstep with this church shows a lack of political awareness that he and his team can ill afford. Useless.
is a direct result of Blair shifting the focus of the party from the regional working class to metropolitan middle classes.
But as fewer and fewer of the population (in general) see themselves as working class, and identify (socially at least) as small 'c' conservatives where does that leave Labour? what's it's point?
@big_n_daft thanks for the unherd article, interesting (if a little depressing) reading
So, in answer to my question at the weekend…
he’sthe person in his team who set this up is an idiot, not a bigot. To not remember May’s misstep with this church shows a lack of political awareness that he and his team can ill afford. his team is Useless.
FIFY
The reality is that he probably had never heard of them prior, whoever set this up didn't do due diligence, then you get the cock up.
It's part of the issue with the today is xyz recognition day campaigns cycle that labour seem too happy to feed.
@big_n_daft thanks for the unherd article, interesting (if a little depressing) reading
This week's Economist has an article that posits that it's a wonder that labour held on to the red wall for so long. Their campaigns don't register with the people who live and work there.
The reality is that he probably had never heard of them prior, whoever set this up didn’t do due diligence, then you get the cock up.
Starmer isn't new to politics. He should have heard of this church... May had to handle all the negative media attention when she made the mistake of engaging with them. That wasn't long ago, and it wasn't under the radar at all. Yes, his team messed up, but he should have personally picked up on it.
I saw a nice line on Twitter, stolen from somewhere else, that KS is "going round the country stirring up apathy"
Starmer isn’t new to politics. He should have heard of this church… May had to handle all the negative media attention when she made the mistake of engaging with them. That wasn’t long ago, and it wasn’t under the radar at all. Yes, his team messed up, but he should have personally picked up on it.
I really doubt he has the time to do that sort of due diligence, He's got plenty of other things to worry about which is why he has his team should have vetted them. Labour make Starmer do all sorts of things for a plethora of religious groups from all religions Starmer has better things to do than vet them all.
Jesus! (see what I did there)
He's not just a puppet. And this isn't some obscure link that needs research, when May put her foot in it by looking like she was backing the church, it was all over the media. That was a recent story. This isn't some obscure long lost detail, the name should have rung alarm bells with any MP that has put themselves in the spotlight.
before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months
Dear god do you not know the basics of politics? Public inquiries will only reveal what the people commissioning it wants it to reveal and, if necessary, will punt it off into the long grass for a while. The only time it will hit hard is when the people commissioning it arent fussed normally because it will hurt the previous government.
Did you know about it before someone else flagged it? Were you out of the blocks on this before anyone else?
Do you fancy a job as part of a team dedicated to social justice and progressive politics? Could you provide the leadership needed to prevent the LOTO having a cock up?
If yes send your CV and covering letter to Sir K Starmer, c/o House of Commons
I hadn't heard of them, I don't even remember the May story, remember lots of other things about her premiership, not some Christian group with a dodgy track record.
My personal view is that it's all over for any left wing party in this country; there was never much appetite for it in the first place.
Bloke A struggling with his 3 bedroomed semi-detached, 2 cars and a couple of foreign holidays per year is unlikely to give a shit about some foreigner whose kids are starving or being systematically oppressed by their own (or another) government.
Bloke B on the next street, with even less than Bloke A, will care even less. He knows that if we stopped sending money abroad and looked after our own then he could have what bloke A has.
This idea of people actually giving a shit about others is well and truly debunked now; it was a nice thought for a few years after the war but that time has long passed.
I know there are some of you out there but you are a dying breed.
But as fewer and fewer of the population (in general) see themselves as working class, and identify (socially at least) as small ‘c’ conservatives where does that leave Labour? what’s it’s point?
A fundamental question and the point or need for Labour is a lot less than it was 70 years ago. It is a very different time and people have very different priorities.
It is a largely selfish country full of horrible people and was tipped over the edge in the 80's and will never go back