Binners have you read that thing about QE yet? Or is that all sixth form marxist fantasy too?
So do you think Starmer will propose to provide free broadband?
No. The Labour party's next general election manifesto is unlikely, I expect, to chime with my own policy wants as closely as either the 2017 or 2019 manifestos did. Starmer has a big challenge ahead, as regards winning over voters that rejected Labour at those elections, and keeping people, like me, who were new to Labour because of the very real shift in that 2017 manifesto. The universal state provided broadband policy is absolutely one I support (remember, the state pays the main private provider to extend broadband coverage already, they just keep failing), but I fully expect it to be dumped before the next election... along with other policies that seemed like kite flying to much of the public in 2019. Policies on education, health, the environment and local services are more important to me, and important to more people.
Or is that all sixth form marxist fantasy too?
I think you need to provide a colouring book version.
You can just hear the conversation now in No 10.
Blohard: Shit. We're in trouble here. We all know Brexit will be a disaster and we are going to be exposed for exploiting covid to enrich our mates. What can we do?
Aide: No problem. Don't worry. We'll just leak something to wind that silly old tw*t Corbyn up. Our mates in the press will seize on whatever petty revenge he tries to get and splash it under a headline that reads 'Would Things Be Better Under Labour?' It's great, we thought we'd be struggling against a former DPP and QC, but we don't need to get to him. We just push Grandpa's buttons and it's job done. Pass the port.
You can just hear the conversation now in No 10.
Perhaps in your fantasies although could you remind me how exactly this relates to reality?
Since you seem to be confusing Starmer picking a fight to please the rabid right wing press vs Corbyn picking the fight.
I think you need to provide a colouring book version.
Well let me summarise. Everything successive governments have told you about government spending is a lie. The magic money tree is real, and its operated by the Bank of England at the behest of the government. Since 2009 they've been using it to successfully prop up the banks and the financial sector, and the banks and financial services companies have done very well out of it, as have private sharelholders. Since covid began they've been using it to fund all the borrowing and spending needed to fund the furlough scheme, the NHS and prop up businesses. Except this time its more direct, and the government have changed the rules so that the money created is listed as government debt even though they owe it to themselves. This enables them to continue with the austerity narrative of having to pay it back, when the opposite is true. Almost a trillion pounds has been created in the last 10 years to prevent the collapse of the economy from the banking crisis and covid and it never has to be paid back.
So is it really a marxist fantasy to ask if they can do all this to prop up the economy in the wake of covid and the banking crisis, why can't they do it for things like climate change and to eradicate poverty? You're making excuses for and supporting the very things which you profess to hate. Perhaps spend more time reading than copy and pasting funny pictures?
The magic money tree is real, and its operated by the Bank of England at the behest of the government.
I know how it works. I know that austerity was an idealogical project, as the ultra-austerity we're about to witness will be. I can see who's pockets the present massive state spending is ending up in. It'll pretty much all end up in offshore bank accounts in the Caymen Islands, I'm sure.
But it's not me you need to convince. Just to re-iterate: I've voted Labour at every single election my whole adult life. I even voted for that beardy old **** twice. I'm not the one who's votes labour need to win to get into power.
People who normally vote Tory will need to be persuaded to vote labour. Telling them that magic money trees are actually real is unlikely to do the trick and will just hand the Tory press yet another open goal.
If labour want to ever get back into power they're going to have to be wilier than that. The last two times of telling everyone they're wrong and you're right didn't exactly go too well.
'Winning the argument' - quite possibly the stupidest statement any politician has ever made - doesn't count for anything
My family are all similar.
Norfolk born and bred, eh?
So is it really a marxist fantasy to ask if they can do all this to prop up the economy in the wake of covid and the banking crisis, why can’t they do it for things like climate change and to eradicate poverty? You’re making excuses for and supporting the very things which you profess to hate.
This
I'm thinking 'let's become the Weimar Republic' might be an even tougher sell electorally than the free broadband
They were certainly unelectable with half their MPs against him and some actively wanting to lose the election. But that’s in the past, so whatever.
I'm still wanting a more in-depth explanation of this little beauty.
Just for the avoidance of doubt it is about 3/4 down the previous page and was posted by grum about Corbyn's election fail last December. Apparently it was all down to a fifth column of Labour MPs....
I've got biccies and everything ready.
The magic money tree is real
Mugabe, Weimar, Venezuala, <insert your choice of hyperinflation disaster here>, etc.
Not an easy sell.
Regardless of what you believe about where the folding stuff comes from and the environment, binners is right about Labour getting in to #10. You're not the target market - few of us on STW are, I suspect.
Apparently it was all down to a fifth column of Labour MPs….
I never said all, nice straw man.
It's not even controversial to point out that factional infighting has been massively detrimental to Labour's chances of electoral success.
Blame it all on 'the left' and Corbyn if you want - you might have a nasty surprise when the Tories get a vaguely competent person in charge though.
Jesus Christ they had a coup against him, they planned resignations to cause the most damage possible. Some refused to ever serve in his cabinet before he was elected leader. Are you seriously denying that some MPs were against him?
Also Corbyn lost to Boris so did Remain. What does that say about the argument for Remain?
It’s not even controversial to point out that factional infighting has been massively detrimental to Labour’s chances of electoral success.
Agreed.
We need to learn the lesson of that.
I see little evidence of that right now.
What does that say about the argument for Remain?
That it was lost, and that we’re no longer EU members?
What does that say about the argument for Remain?
That their referendum cause would have been greatly assisted by the leader of the opposition, who decided to take a 2 month sabbatical on his allotment instead
Lol he's unelectable/ he would have saved Remain. Which is it?
BTW he came to Cardiff and spoke to thousands of people early on in the campaign, maybe he just did one rally though?
Do we want a credible and electable Labour Party or not?
Hint - just saying "Corbyn could have done it if everyone wasn't so nasty to him" doesn't really cut it.
He lost by 80 seats to an empty (as well as rumpled and poorly fitting) suit.
I'm not sure I have the time to carry on pointing out the bleeding obvious to people who just can't or won't acknowledge it.
You've got me beat, guys. Problem is, it isn't me you needed to convince.
Up the PFJ!
Lol he’s unelectable/ he would have saved Remain. Which is it?
I think Binners has been quite straight forward in stating his wish that someone else had been Labour leader during the referendum campaign. He’s hardly hidden that. Still… take this to the Corbyn thread. Or save it for the pub next summer [fingers crossed] it’s irrelevant here and now.
Leave the PFJ jokes to binbins and Mark Francois.
Leave the PFJ jokes to binbins and Mark Francois.
Sorry, forgot the PFJ is the one true path.
I'll take the piss out of the JPF instead. Sworn enemies that they are.
I'm out now. It's waste of time anyway.
You are correct
Mugabe, Weimar, Venezuala, <insert your choice of hyperinflation disaster here>, etc.
Please do some reading. There are numerous books and free resources on the internet that describe MMT, and once you do some research you'll realise that the risk of hyperinflation is negligible for all sorts of reasons. No one is suggesting uncontrolled money printing. Quite the opposite in fact. What is being suggested is that the tools we use to fight wars and combat things like the banking crisis and Covid can also be applied to other crises such as climate change and poverty.
I know how it works...
But it’s not me you need to convince.
I know you know how it works, which why I'll never understand why whenever anyone suggests changing this ridiculous system you respond with Monty Python and Citizen Smith images. I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they'd be on the streets demanding it be done away with. Deep down they know they're being shafted, but they think it can't be changed, and that's mostly because parties who aren't the tories are too scared to make the case.
I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with.
Firstly, how? Secondly, the trouble with "firm beliefs" is they rarely change in the face of evidence.
Firstly, how?
How what?
I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with.
Mate... a majority of the northern working class just voted for the ultimate far right project - Brexit - then delivered a whacking great majority to an Eton chumocracy because they’d ‘had enough of experts’
Turkeys... Christmas...
Good luck with educating them on the fundamental inequalities of Chicago School, neoliberal economics and getting them to rise up against their oppressors
Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?
Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections, and though the sixth formers will all fail to acknowledge it, did a lot of good.
Oh... and in response to the next post
IRAQ!!!!
Yes, it was/is a disaster
But you can’t view everything through the prism of that
How what?
Ensure that the...
general population properly understood this stuff
Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?
Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections,
What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?
What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?
What about this, that, and the other? Or we could try to take it a point at a time. Starting with getting elected, then argue whether health spending, say, should have tripped rather than just doubled.
What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?
I'd write you a list - yet again - but we've been here countless times and it's getting repetitive
Just ask yourself what the UK would have looked like by 2010 if we'd have had the Tories in power for those 13 years instead of Blair and Brown?
Have a look around you today and take note of what they've done since 2010 and what they're presently up to, then imagine if they'd have got started on all that 13 years earlier
If nothing else Blair gave us optimism and hope. In the late 90's things really did seem like they could only get better especially in his first term.
Corbyn did the same for a certain group but unfortunately was detested by a bigger group so was always bound to fail.
Starmer? Not sure yet, we'll see.
When was the last time a Tory led government made you feel optimistic?
Ensure that the…
Education and transparency, and some politicians who are willing to talk about it. It's not hard to explain that the nations finances are not the same as a household's, and yet all the time we hear the same nonsense about national overdrafts, saddling our children with debt etc..
Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?
Is that the limit of your ambition? As I've said before, if we're not prepared to fundamentally change a system which has proven itself unfit for purpose then there isn't really any point in politics. We might as well have a one party system where policy is decided by technocrats (I'd argue we already have that). At least then we could plan long term instead of this charade of democracy.
Is that the limit of your ambition?
My ambition is to see a labour governemnt
We might as well have a one party system where policy is decided by technocrats (I’d argue we already have that).At least then we could plan long term instead of this charade of democracy.
Technocrats? Are you mental? This government are embarked on the biggest right-wing idealogical project this country has ever seen. Technocrats? If only! Technocrats might be able to establish a test and trace system that reached more than half the people it was meant to. Technocrats might know their arses from their elbows.
And if you seriously believe that a centrist labour administration under Starmer would be carrying on anything like the Tory's presently are then you need your bumps feeling. Do you reckon Lisa Nandy would be dishing out £250 million PPE contracts to her husbands mates?
We know that you want some type of revolution. Thats obvious. Most people just want a government run by people who aren't so nasty and corrupt and displayed a reasonable level of competence
We know that you want some type of revolution.
Rubbish. I want a system which does what is required to tackle climate change, where the likes of Amazon and facebook pay tax, where kids get free education up to university level, where public utilities are operated in the interests of the people not their shareholders, and where politicians are properly accountable. That's it, it's hardly revolutionary. I look forward to Kier Starmer implementing all this. How much would you like to bet that he doesn't?
Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections, and though the sixth formers will all fail to acknowledge it, did a lot of good.
Whereas those who managed to get beyond colouring crayons also note it did a lot of bad.
Those northerners didnt vote "ultimate far right project " they voted for a change, any change since they had noticed the glorious project of Blair of chasing the tories rightwards economically hadnt really helped them but had, in fact, screwed them over. Just look at the comments about politicians being all the same and so on.
Something the hard right was able to exploit ably aided by the useful idiots with their hilarious images and tedious repetition of the current attack lines.
. I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with. Deep down they know they’re being shafted, but they think it can’t be changed,
Education and transparency, and some politicians who are willing to talk about it.
You must see how trite this looks? You'd make sure the population understood some controversial economics by educating them?
How would you educate them?
I'd suggest that some politicians advancing an alternative view (which some have but I agree insufficiently - and we could discuss why this is a hiding to nothing) is a good thing for sure but demonstrably not enough to make a difference.
Also, not all economists agree (possibly the least controversial thing I've ever typed). Education is intrinsically good but it doesn't necessarily follow that once educated people will all agree with you.
Those northerners didnt vote “ultimate far right project ” they voted for a change, any change since they had noticed the glorious project of Blair of chasing the tories rightwards economically hadnt really helped them but had, in fact, screwed them over.
This absolutely. The public perception after 13 years of new labour was that nothing had fundamentally changed in their favour, and since then they have voted accordingly. The only time since then where they voted a bit differently, although sadly not in enough numbers, was 2017. I've also said before many times that the roots of Corbyn and brexit were sown by Blair and his failure to deliver fundamental change. This is what happens when a party which is supposed to represent the interests of workers fails to do that and instead represents the interests of capital. Starmer looks like he's going down the same route, and the results will be the same.
Just how damn lucky are the Tories??! How long have they been in power? And still everything is Labour's fault, or a reaction to the last Labour government (who I didn't vote for, but many people either can't remember, as they're too young, or misremember).
I’ve also said before many times
Indeed 🙂
Indeed
What can I say, I feel an automatic duty to respond to the popular myth that the Blair govt was a social democratic utopia. 🙂 (and I'm really bored at work so this is a welcome distraction)
I’d write you a list – yet again – but we’ve been here countless times and it’s getting repetitive
Just ask yourself what the UK would have looked like by 2010 if we’d have had the Tories in power for those 13 years instead of Blair and Brown?
Oh I am not one to say that the Blair/Brown years were all bad. However they burnt the candle at both ends, they did nothing to curtail the free market madness. The investment they provided into services still largely went to privatised outsourcers. And they funded most of it by seeding debt into the future through PFI and asset inflation. They continued with the worship of the city and financial sectors and treated them very much with a light touch, and oversaw an upturn in the offshoring of profit for tax evasion without even lifting a finger to regulate.
the popular myth that the Blair govt was a social democratic utopia
Has a single person suggested that is the case in this thread?
And still everything is Labour’s fault, or a reaction to the last Labour government
No its a statement about the flaws on the centrist project.
If it makes you feel better then Cameron added to this. Since after new labour charged rightwards economically Cameron did take the approach of being less conservative for some social policies.
Again resulting in people feeling they didnt really have good representation since there was no clear distinction between the parties which cared about the small group of centrists vs the larger groups of traditional voters since they were hoping they would just keep voting for them.
This is the problem with the centrist approach to things. They share the same "silent majority" belief with the frothing right wingers whilst busily ignoring the centrist party (although even that after orange book was dragged rightwards economically hence blurring its position) doesnt win every election by a landslide as would be expected if the centrist position was as popular as claimed.
