It was not meant not be taken literally, it was a little play on words. Unity should come from persuasion and evidence not ad hominems, suspending and expelling like the head boy is currently embroiled in.
‘Ideology’ is to see the world from a particular perspective, everybody has one.
What you’re describing there is a ‘worldview’; it’s people’s perception of how the world is. An ideology is a view on how things should be. Sociologically, they’re interrelated, but distinct, concepts.
I understand the phrase but not why people are using it as an apparent insult. A failure of comprehension, I guess
And who’s fault is it if it isn’t ‘comprehended’ properly?
As for for its use as a apparent insult; because it alienates people (Voters) who are deemed to insufficiently share the ideology, and then implies moral inferiority.
In the case of Corbyns ideology, it came across as incredibly po-faced, utterly humourless, pious, sanctimonious, self-righteous and judgemental, and it’s adherents uncomfortably cult-like and intolerant
It repelled voters in droves, to deliver a huge Tory majority
Good point DJ but perception is based on ideology: you see a bloke and someone else sees an unwelcome foreigner.
In the case of Corbyns ideology, it came across as incredibly po-faced, utterly humourless, pious, sanctimonious, self-righteous and judgemental, and it’s adherents uncomfortably cult-like and intolerant
It seems to me that your first instinct is to insult and belittle those who don't share your ideology.
I'm not trying to insult or belittle anyone. I'm merely pointing out how this was/is a common perception of the Corbynite left. You might not like that (clearly), and you may not deem it accurate, but it's a commonly held opinion. This isn't an opinion unique to me. You could argue that the refusal to acknowledge this, let alone address it was one of the Party's major failings and contributed to their thumping electoral defeat
And the words 'pious and sanctimonious', as well as the word 'useless' were used to (accurately) describe Jeremy Corbyn by none other than Alan Johnson, who lest we forget was instrumental in delivering 3 successive election victories (booooooo, hiss... bloody centrist) and someone who would almost certainly have become leader had he stood (but said it was the last thing he wanted)
I’m not trying to insult or belittle anyone.
You can't have had a straight face when you typed that. It's pretty much all you do.
You can’t have had a straight face when you typed that. It’s pretty much all you do.
Everyone's a bleedin' critic 😁. Perhaps that's the best way forward for this thread: comment on debating style of previous poster?
Everyone’s a bleedin’ critic 😁. Perhaps that’s the best way forward for this thread: comment on debating style of previous poster?
If you like.
Oh Christ on a bendybus! Please god let’s not make this about me again
Could you just answer me the following questions
1. Do you think calling Corbyn pious and sanctimonious (we’ll take po-faced and humourless as a given, shall we?) is inaccurate or unfair?
2. Do you see and understand why a lot of people perceive him as being so?
Feel free to show your workings in the margin
Oh Christ on a bendybus! Please god let’s not make this about me again
That's up to you. The phrasing of your questions is ample evidence that you're not interested in answers that might not accord with your ideology.
If you're interested in genuine debate, you need to stop acting in bad faith. Your choice.
You might not like that (clearly), and you may not deem it accurate, but it’s a commonly held opinion. This isn’t an opinion unique to me.
It's also a commonly held opinion that Brexit is a great idea, Trump is a good president, and white people are best. What's your point?
My point is that you have to deal with the world as it is, rather than how you’d like it to be.
The problem with the left, both here and in America, over recent years it that they’re so convinced of their piousness and moral correctness that they feel the fact that they are ‘right’ should be obvious to everyone, who should then dutifully vote for them. They are thus absolutely terrible at ‘selling’ their argument as they think that they shouldn’t have to bother
This has delivered predictable results
But even after those catastrophic results, Corbyn came out and stated ‘we won the argument’
Those 4 words spoke volumes about the attitude of those on the left and their total detachment from reality
If you’re interested in genuine debate, you need to stop acting in bad faith. Your choice.
I don't think Binners could act in bad faith if he tried
What he understands as does Starmer is that people who voted conservative at the last election need to be persuaded to vote Labour. The left double down with statements that anyone who votes conservative is openly xenophobic and racist or has murdered 60,000 people
One approach will get labour into power, the other sees the worst conservative government of the modern era continue for another term.
The Corbyns rise is similar to Farage's both can't seem to withdraw from the limelight, both are badly flawed talismans and British politics will be better when they disappear to spend more time in the allotment/pub
+1 big_n_daft
Many of us 'rabid centralists' have also voted labour all our lives. I want a labour government not an 80 seat majority tory one.
My point is that you have to deal with the world as it is, rather than how you’d like it to be.
No shit. But that doesn't mean you have a monopoly on the best response.
I find it interesting that "the left" is continually caricatured as an immature, inflexible, monolithic entity. Yet the maths of Starmer's leadership victory clearly show that left wingers voted for him in their thousands.
can’t seem to withdraw from the limelight
After the change of leadership, I was hoping that Corbyn (by dint of his strong continuing support in the party, even by people who could see that Long-Bailey might not be the best choice leader for Labour’s rebuild) could be a part of a strong wing of the party to keep the party’s policies left wing, while acknowledging that they need modernising and reframing to persuade more people to vote Labour. But rather than fight on policy, he decides to fight based on a report, with legal standing, about antisemitism. I really wish Corbyn had sought to keep himself quietly useful in keeping Labour to the left while also widening its support… but no, he wants to die on this hill. He now needs to just be gone. Which is a shame. The 2017 manifesto got me voting Labour for the first time… so many good policies… I fear that fewer of those will live on into the next Labour government (if we ever get one now) because of his failure to do what needed doing, and say what needed saying, when the EHRC report was published. I’m angry with him to be honest. I doubt I’m alone. I still think Starmer was wrong not to give him back the whip… but at this point… he must really wish Corbyn would just disappear… and doesn’t want to be seen to accept him as part of his parliamentary team… I don’t blame him.
It like the early days of Corbyn's leadership when he was hamstrung by various members of the PLP plotting against him. Now JC is a drag anchor to SKS's leadership.
Karma is a bitch!
& the country is the loser for all this stupidness from the LP.
The left double down with statements that anyone who votes conservative is openly xenophobic and racist or has murdered 60,000 people
The worse ones for this are the "moderates" in my experience. You only need to look in the brexit threads to see the people sneering arrogance at anyone they perceive are pro corbyn are also the ones coming out with this sort of crap.
The problem I have with this belief of chasing the tories rightwards is we have been there and done that.
We ended up with a political system far more skewed to the right than ever before. So how do you expect it to work differently this time and not end up even more skewed rightwards.
So then in a few years time we have the same people dispensing wisdom about "dealing with the world as is" without dealing with the fact it was them who helped make it that way?
We ended up with a political system far more skewed to the right than ever before.
That’s what we have now. The current Tory Government is further to the right than other recent ones, and they didn’t get there by being chased to the right by Labour, did they.
The worse ones for this are the “moderates” in my experience. You only need to look in the brexit threads to see the people sneering arrogance at anyone they perceive are pro corbyn are also the ones coming out with this sort of crap.
What were they saying?
There was plenty of vitriol at anyone who wasn't an ardent remainer
As I recall the Labour party policy was for "remain" and JC as a good party man campaigned on that basis with the same vigor he puts into all the policies of the labour party
Why was there sneering arrogance?
They’re too busy arguing amongst themselves.
It's safer that way. It means they don't have to confront the real world.
A real world in which Jeremy Corbyn lost by 80 seats to an inept liar and crook who hid in a fridge to avoid scrutiny.
and someone who would almost certainly have become leader had he stood (but said it was the last thing he wanted)
The difference between Johnson and Corbyn being that when Corbyn was asked to put himself forward even though he didn't want to, he stepped forward. If only Johnson had shown the same level of commitment to the cause we might not be in this mess now.
The difference between Johnson and Corbyn being that when Corbyn was asked to put himself forward even though he didn’t want to, he stepped forward. If only Johnson had shown the same level of commitment to the cause we might not be in this mess now.
If my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
What are Labour going to do now?
I fear that fewer of those will live on into the next Labour government (if we ever get one now) because of his failure to do what needed doing
So Starmer diluting the 2017/19 policies will also be Corbyn's fault? I see we are already gearing up for blaming Corbyn for the 2024 election defeat 🙂
It’s safer that way. It means they don’t have to confront the real world.
The only political party in the past 40 years which has made an attempt to confront 'the real world' was labour under Corbyn. It was the only party willing to challenge the corrupt and exploitative model of neo-liberalism and the power of the oligarchs and kleptocrats. It failed in the end but not because they didn't try, but because its own Blairite MPs and officials sided with establishment interests in order to keep everything the same.
Centrists don't confront the real world, they drop their trousers and allow themselves to be shafted by it in return for getting to play at being important and making some money out of it.
Good leadership comes from good debate within an organisation. To get that you need confident and articulate members and a preparedness to explore, discuss and feed back. If 'unity' means grudgingly being a follower in silence over certain issues and always watching your back then that's not destined to work well. And it's not.
Sir's pronouncements about under new management would suggest that he has no interest in the membership's ideas but even his front bench, including me me, seem strangely silent. Are they completely bereft of ideas, there to make the numbers up, not up to the task or just terrified? Actually, Sir doesn't look too comfortable in his own skin and hence the big emphasis on shiny suits and hairdos. I can't see a return to the status quo ante under Sir, you either lump it or leave.
Sir doesn’t look too comfortable in his own skin
I think his flushed, Charles Kennedy-esque red face indicates why he might not look very comfortable.
So Starmer diluting the 2017/19 policies will also be Corbyn’s fault?
Corbyn choosing to die on this hill, rather than respond as needed to the report, and then concentrate on trying to cement his policy shift in the party, is Corbyn’s fault. There are many people who will welcome Corbyn sidelining himself… but I think it will be a loss to the party. But it’s Corbyn’s choice.
On policy… a lot of what the public found problematic in 2019 was added late in the campaign… much of it welcomed by me, but easily ridiculed by others. The 2017 manifesto would be a better platform to build from… there is so much in there that this country needs. The 2019 manifesto has to be viewed as a mistake now, and any new leader would be signalling a move away from it. I’m glad if Starmer is already doing so (although I’ve not seen nearly enough of this myself so far, he seems to be avoiding policy completely in most areas). There is no point sticking to the 2019 policy platform 100% and claiming the argument was won. That would be foolish in the extreme.
The difference being Kennedy was his own man and was a good operator and speaker, the whisky was a terrible shame. Sir definitely looks a bit jowly, fearful and glassy-eyed on occasions. Anyone know what he drinks?
It’s safer that way. It means they don’t have to confront the real world.
Who's "they"?
The only political party in the past 40 years which has made an attempt to confront ‘the real world’ was labour under Corbyn
Utter.
Horse.
Shit.
So Starmer diluting the 2017/19 policies will also be Corbyn’s fault?
The changes that Starmer is making for the most part seem to be that policies need to be agreed in advance, that they need to be affordable, and they need to be easy to understand, and directed by the shadow treasury team. One of the issues identified by the post election review was that the almost daily announcing of more and more spending (the spending plans for pensions missed by middle aged women was one such, designed on the hoof, with apparently the sole aim of dominating that days news agenda) didn't ring true with the sorts of voters who need to be persuaded that the Labour party can be trusted with the purse books*.
* the fact that most post-war Labour govts have been on the whole more fiscally sane that most Tory govts is utterly irrelevant here, people need to have their tightly held opinions changed, not told that what they think is bollocks.
Labour going into the last election didn’t have a manifesto as such, more like policy Tourette’s
Like a 13 year old with ADHD, who just drunk 2 cans of Red Bull, blurting out the next thing that came into their head.
Compared with the the single "policy" from the tory party who got elected with a massive majority
Who’s “they”?
I was wondering that. As it's a response to a specific question then I presume "they" refers to socialists. Does that mean there's a significant number of non socialists in the new and improved labour party? Does the poster count themselves as a non socialist?
Labour going into the last election didn’t have a manifesto as such
Well, this is provably nonsense. But the “unveiling” of some key policy announcements late in the day did give the impression that there was always more coming… I think a lot of voters were turned away by this and were easily led to believe that post election Labour policies would just keep moving if they won. The other UK wide parties didn’t really have manifestos at all. What little was in the Conservative document has already been thrown out.
I was wondering that. As it’s a response to a specific question then I presume “they” refers to socialists. Does that mean there’s a significant number of non socialists in the new and improved labour party? Does the poster count themselves as a non socialist?
Nice try to kick my point into the long grass with a bit of sophistry.
The 'they' here are the navel-gazing grudge bearers who'd rather feel safe arguing amongst themselves over the finer points of socialist doctrine than looking around them at a country that rejected Labour in favour of.....
A bumbling, lying, vodka-soaked fraud who hides in a fridge to avoid scrutiny and a hideously self harming core policy.
But no, keep convening the PFJ extraordinary general meetings if that's what makes you feel safe, folks. It won't do any good, of course, but it allows the comfort blanket to stay in place.
And I voted Labour last time. I did it because it was the most effective way I could register my 'anybody but the Tories' sentiment. But millions of people out there, who would have voted for a more centrist/corporate/credible or plain old 'just not so easy to ridicule' Labour leader, didn't.
And now we are left with this bunch of arseholes in government and the Labour old guard are still more determined to damage the new Labour leadership than their actual opposition.
It's pathetic. And it isn't so much about principle as plain old peevishness and sour grapes.
Talking of the PFJ cult members, they started their usual Twitter campaign (do they ever inhabit the real world?) this morning in nauseatingly grovelling praise of their Glorious messiah with the hashtag #jeremycorbyn40facts
It’s fair to say that it’s not gone as they would have hoped. It’s worth checking out. There are some absolute gems on there. I think this is my favourite 😂
https://twitter.com/dogshady/status/1330484625328705539?s=21
The fawning sycophancy from the fam club is even funnier in the usual creepy way. It’s proper North Korea stuff
Apparently “Starmer must go”…
https://twitter.com/lauraalvarezjc/status/1330185135547961345?s=21
Yes, that is who you think it is.
I found that thanks to the “Twitter storm” … and then reading back through her stream it is non-stop nonsense, of the type I thought only loosely connected supporters of Corbyn’s on the fringes were spreading. Starmer has no chance of “unifying” the party. None at all.
You can’t unify a cult.
If they were American they’d now be stockpiling weapons.
Unhinged, the lot of them
If they were American they’d now be stockpiling weapons.
The guy about to stockpile weapons is Boris Johnson, with SKS' approval.
Maybe we can do a nice swap deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/british-arms-exports-israel-new-record
Kelvin, further to your post…
Well, that’s me depressed about it enough for this year then. I apologise for thinking Starmer was wrong to withdraw the whip… I was naive about the battle he has ahead of him. What a pile of shit.
If you want to know what’s ahead then just read ‘Things Can Only Get Better’ by John O’Farrell.
It’s actually a very funny book, if just putting a brave face on it, of the last time the Militant Tendency made the Labour Party unelectable
Looks like grandad and his followers are determined to beat the 18 years of Tory rule they facilitated their last time out
Boris must wake up every morning and thank the lord for Corbyn and his cultists
