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he last thing the Labour party needs is a lurch to the left, if nothing else the electorate have firmly shown they have moved to the right,
Anas Sarwar does not agree with you at all. 🙂 He is actively criticising Starmer and his right wing austerity politics.
they are still clinging on to the idea that he is going to be a transformational and radical PM
Who is ? I can't see much evidence of that.
Apparently it was vital for Starmer not to adopt radical policies because they might scare away voters, they didn't stop them banging on about how winning the trust of voters was the most important thing.
Now apparently it is no longer important. Starmer has apparently become one of the most unpopular prime minister of modern times and support for Labour is hovering around 25%, the level of support that the Tories enjoyed under Liz Truss's brief premiership.
But they don't seem too worried about that. "Radical" policies which enjoy overwhelming voter support, such as renationalisation of Royal Mail, are dismissed as unaffordable and of no relevance, a claim which is enthusiastically backed by centrists on here.
The renationalisation of the railways is touted as some sort of radical policy despite the fact that it was the Tories who started the process, and only because frankly there was no alternative.
But where there are alternatives, such as leaving UK energy providers in the hands of the French government with the profits benefiting French taxpayers, then the status quo is strictly maintained.
The centrists's aversion to alternative radical policies has nothing to do with fear of alienating voters and everything to with ideological commitment, exactly the same as the Tories.
Bless. I see our resident lefties are back in their comfort zone…
There is nothing "comfortable" about watching a right-wing Labour government alienating voters and laying the groundwork for a far-right UK government.
Something which seems increasingly inevitable but which you will no doubt blame the Left for.
yep Corbyn was Labour leader when Boris was gifted that landslide win.
Corbyn had to fight the Tories, the press, and the right-wing Parliamentary Labour Party, all at the same time. With the most damaging attacks coming from the Labour right.
Could Boris Johnson have possibly asked for more?
Who is ? I can’t see much evidence of that.
Plenty of posters on here and Toynbee in the guardian
Labour left blaming every ill of the world on Labour right?
The labour soft left (the real Labour left doesn't really exist any more as they've all left or been kicked out the party) haven't been doing anything other than playing their part and getting on with their jobs. And they're doing quite well at it if you look at the jobs Haigh and Miliband have been doing. The labour right though have spent their time slagging off the NHS and telling voters the country is bankrupt and things are going to get worse rather than better. Now it looks like they're on manoevres to protect themselves when everyone realises their agenda of tory-lite austerity has failed. We're only five months in to the Labour First project in govt and it very much looks like it's going to be a massive failure. Just like with brexit though those responsible will point the blame at others and absolve themselves of any responsibility.
Don’t forget MOSSAD, MI5 and the CIA too. They were all definitely involved in his downfall
An interesting comment binners. Your sarcasm suggests that you reject the claim that Corbyn had to fight the Tories, the press, and the right-wing Parliamentary Labour Party all at the same time, a situation which if true, as I claim it is, would undoubtedly have benefited Boris Johnson.
Have you actually got anything apart from sarcasm to challenge my claim?
And don't mean hilarious photos.
We’re only five months in to the Labour First project in govt and it very much looks like it’s going to be a massive failure.
No one's ever going to accuse you of being a half-full kinda guy, huh?
I'd agree with you that they seem to be floundering spectacularly in their comms, and Starmer's habit of wandering around every other option rather than choose the correct thing to do seems like a personality trait rather than exception. The rest, ack, they appear to be governing as expected, the white and green papers they said they'd introduce, they have. They've largely resolved (for the time being at least) some pay disputes, and there's plans that sound credible for local government, worker's right, energy that are welcome. I've reservations about some ministers (Streeting tops the list) , The noise about Farmers, the WASPI campaign and whatever are the sorts of things that beset any and every govt, so as far as they go...mleh.
I don't think they've been fantastic so far, but they're still better than any other option open to voters presently.
Corbyn had to fight the Tories, the press, and the right-wing Parliamentary Labour Party all at the same time
On the first two, I’m still surprised how many people are allowing them to set the narrative… again. This government is getting on with job, yet being set up as the culprits rather than the clean up squad as regards the current state of the UK.
Corbyn had to fight the Tories, the press, and the right-wing Parliamentary Labour Party all at the same time
Discounting the last bit of tinfoil-helmeted nonsense, and fighting the Tory party is sort of the whole point, would that be the right wing press who were all so incredibly supportive of all other Labour party leaders, bar Magic Grandad?
No one’s ever going to accuse you of being a half-full kinda guy, huh?
I'm talking more about the party's poll ratings, Starmer's personal approval ratings, and the likelihood of them being re-elected. I don't see how you can see the collapse in support since the election as anything other than a massive failure. The right of the party seem to agree given they're now sharpening their knives. As usual the right are more interested in protecting their own positions and maintaining/gaining power rather than serving the people who voted for them.
Discounting the last bit of tinfoil-helmeted nonsense
Nonsense ? So you do in fact dismiss the claim that Corbyn had to fight the Tories, the press, and the right-wing Parliamentary Labour Party all at the same time !
But as predicted you can't challenge the claim beyond posting a photo.
Of someone who is not known at all for having to fight the Parliamentary Labour Party, in an apparent attempt to draw a parallel.
I see we're back to the usual Labour in-fighting that makes people think that the Tories are the party of strong and stable leadership in the best interests of the working man, despite 14 years of evidence to the contrary.
"There is nothing “comfortable” about watching a right-wing Labour government alienating voters and laying the groundwork for a far-right UK government."
Is very much where I have ended up now. I had high hopes when Starmer was elected leader, he gave the impression that he might have the balls to stand firm and offer a meaningful vision for the country/society, I gave the benefit of the doubt when he drifted right to attract voters at the election, but now I'm just pissed off with him having wasted that opportunity.
There were enough grown up, centre/left voters in this country desperate for a change from 14 years of damaging Tory policies that he could have offered and started to deliver a different vision for a fairer and more equitable society, and we've ended up being too scared to upset the idiots on the right.
I don't believe that the Labour party as it exists now can ever offer a successful alternative to Tory rule. And in the absence of a party, or a coalition, who can do that, then we will be cursed by another Tory government far too soon. Makes me ****ing despair.
What we’re seeing now is the aftermath of 14 years of populist sound bite politics. of course Starmer is unpopular, he’s doing unpopular things, things that need doing (unless you believe in the magic money tree and most people don’t).
+1
All these folk above reckoning Labour are 'right-wing' - according to Lord Cameron earlier this year:
""The last thing we need in Britain now is another liberal leftie lawyer running the country.""
So just how left-wing are these folk who reckon Starmer is right-wing?
I’m talking more about the party’s poll ratings,
Party raises taxes and is unpopular shocker. You've said yourself that Labour need to raise taxes on the wealthy, well, they've done that and now their dismal polling is being used by you as a stick to beat them.
Starmer’s personal approval rating
agreed, he's doing a terrible job so far, but...
and the likelihood of them being re-elected.
Is that no one can predict the future, not even you, It's 4 years away, anything could happen in that time.
Weird keeps pasting the wrong bit, anyhow to @morecashthandash 's third paragraph I respond thus:
Not without the white working class votes now in the thrall of Toad of Toad Hall
Not without the white working class votes now in the thrall of Toad of Toad Hall
One way or another those votes will be available to get the Tories into power in some shape or form. Unless Musk finds a way to provide the funding that the Toad doesn't need to worry about the Tories
scruff9252 Full Member
meanwhile in the real world…
You do realise that we are talking about the "real" world, dontcha?
The real world where support for Labour has collapsed, the economy is tanking, and now half of the electorate either support a Tory Party led by a far-right woman or a far-right party led Nigel Farage.
Not some centrist Fantasyland where everything is just hunkydory because apparently the grownups are back in charge.
Wakey wakey ......... smell the coffee!
Unfortunately the centrists almost certainly won't, there is no Plan B, and when everything goes tits up, and Nigel Farage is the UK Cabinet, they will scratch their heads wondering where it all went wrong before deciding that it was the Left's/Jeremy Corbyn's fault.
You’ve said yourself that Labour need to raise taxes on the wealthy, well, they’ve done that and now their dismal polling is being used by you as a stick to beat them.
Have they? Applying inheritance tax to farmers and abolishing non-doms is a drop in the ocean. Their poll rating is based more on increasing working people's income based taxes by 2p in the pound (even if they've done it indirectly we all know the result). They picked on a tiny few easy targets as a distraction and then raised taxes for everyone else.
When the billionaires are paying a marginal rate the same as I am, corporations are paying full taxes on their profits, and asset owners are paying full capital gains tax on their property and investment assets then you can come and tell me they've raised taxes on the rich. Until then though I'm firmly in the 'labour have done f-all to help working people' camp. Even the money to the NHS is a scam as it's mostly going to be swallowed up in the extra 2% for employers national insurance.
So, when taxes on companies go up... that's also about "working people's incomes"? Righto.
Sadly, Labour haven't raised taxes on the well paid... unlike you I wish they would... but they have raised taxes on the wealth holders... be that on their companies or their land. Yes, Higher Capital Gains tax next please... I think that has to come... it is, as you put it, "not an easy target"... but it is the right one. The squeals about farmers and public school parents is nothing as to what we'll be hearing and seeing in the press and media when/if CGT gets sorted.
It's not just "billionaires" that need to pay more tax, it's millionaires, higher earners, and I would argue very well off pensioners as well.
So just how left-wing are these folk who reckon Starmer is right-wing?
The definition of left vs right has vexxed many people including academics who have spent their lives studying politics.
Now we have the answer. We just need to ask Cameron.
Now cynics might point out Cameron is a lying arse and was spewing out a daily heil attack line whilst in campaign mode. I mean if you think about it for a second you would see an obvious problem with "liberal" and "leftie" being combined but I guess its easier to claim anyone who disagrees with the glorious leader must be far left.
I guess its easier than considering that you might actually be pretty right wing.
Good to see Mandy back.
So, when taxes on companies go up… that’s also about “working people’s incomes”? Righto.
We’ve already been told at work that the pay review budget in 2025 will be dependent on business performance and outlook (as it always is) and the company’s outgoing ‘commitments’. In other words the 2% rise is being passed on. Every other business will be doing the same (and they’ll use the stagnating economy as a smoke screen). Reeves might think she was clever by trying to sell tax rises as just on employers but she’s taking everyone for fools, and the polls reflect that.
Unfortunately the centrists almost certainly won’t, there is no Plan B
Trouble is the oh so right lefties didn't have a plan, before they could do anything they needed to get elected, to do that they needed a party and have policies palatable to the right moving electorate. You had neither, yet alone a plan B. I don't think the Left realises just how bitter and selfish people have become after 14 years of horrific Tory mismanagement. To think that a proper left wing approach is all that is needed is naive in the extreme. People wont vote for those policies, the Torys played a blinder, people would rather be worse off and moan rather than feel that someone else is getting more help from the state than they are. This isn't the middle classes thinking like this, it's the traditional Labour working class vote, they've always been focused (understandably) on their own needs first, the Torys have managed to weaponise it.
If it hadn't been for Reform screwing the Tories things would look very different and no left wing lurch before election day would have changed that.
In other words the 2% rise is being passed on.
As could any other tax on the company be "passed on".
Good to see Mandy back.
Sent to America? To deal with Trump? Good bye...
As could any other tax on the company be “passed on”.
Not really. Employer NI is directly related to salary and hence something which has to be baked into a payrise or not.
All these folk above reckoning Labour are ‘right-wing’
Lets see - anti immigrant rhetoric? tick
Adherence to the failed neoliberal economic model? tick
Pro austerity - tick
Against measures to reduce poverty - tick
brexiteers - tick
anti democratic - tick
Clamp down oin imaginary benefitr cheats - tick
all sounds pretty right wing to me and these are all based on ACTIONS that Starmer has done
Trouble is the oh so right lefties didn’t have a plan, before they could do anything they needed to get elected, to do that they needed a party and have policies palatable to the right moving electorate. You had neither, yet alone a plan B.
So your justification for not having a Plan B is that, according to you, the Left didn't have a Plan B either. That is really quite remarkable!
Shall we expand on that logic? How about justifying Keir Starmer being shite by pointing out that Jeremy Corbyn was also shite, would that make everything okay?
If it hadn’t been for Reform screwing the Tories things would look very different
So you are getting it after all! The reason that Labour won a landslide in July isn't because voters were incredibly impressed with Keir Starmer but because Reform UK screwed the Tories.
And now with support for Labour plummeting further a Tories and Reform UK coalition is looking increasingly likely.
So what's your solution.......offer a radical alternative, or maintain the status quo which appears to be the preferred choice currently?
Or maybe move the Labour Party further to the right in the hope of forming a coalition with the Tories to keep the Reform UK out of government?
I don’t think the Left realises just how bitter and selfish people have become after 14 years of horrific Tory mismanagement.
So how about offering them something different?
The squeals about farmers and public school parents is nothing as to
we don’t send out kid to private school, but my wife works in one. The rises are not being borne by the parents but the teachers themselves. My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.
The communication this week is being told to expect pay cut and frozen at lower levels. Also to expect significant degradation to their employer’s contributions to their pensions and the school are looking for them to sign up to working x days month for no pay on top of the cuts. Oh and would you mind now working Saturday mornings too(unpaid of course). Furthermore to expect redundancies…
but hey, every kid in the state sector will get iro of £1.30 a year more.
binners
Full Member
Good to see Mandy back.
What a timely reminder. According to your fantasy world this never happened, and the centrists had nothing to do with helping Boris Johnson secure a landslide :
Peter Mandelson: I try to undermine Jeremy Corbyn ‘every single day’
Note, "every single day" centrist big beast Peter Mandelson tried to undermine the Leader of Labour Party in the runup to the 2019 general election.
I would say that he and his centrist cohorts were spectacularly successful. After all this is the man who is widely credited with the successful branding of New Labour.
we don’t send out kid to private school, but my wife works in one. The rises are not being borne by the parents but the teachers themselves. My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.
The communication this week is being told to expect pay cut and frozen at lower levels. Also to expect significant degradation to their employer’s contributions to their pensions and the school are looking for them to sign up to working x days month for no pay on top of the cuts. Oh and would you mind now working Saturday mornings too(unpaid of course). Furthermore to expect redundancies…
but hey, every kid in the state sector will get iro of £1.30 a year more.
And the owners of the school, are they also taking the 'pain'?
My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.
I refer you to my other comment…
As could any other tax on the company be “passed on”.
Any tax rise can be passed on to staff, and painted as tax on the incomes of workers by people who own companies, and the press.
Of course, they could also be passed on to customers, or clients, or suppliers, or landlords, or shareholders… but if you want workers to be against taxes on companies, this is the game you play… with the bonus that you have a lever to play in pay negotiations.
Well the appointment doesn't seem to have had a good start :
Trump campaign co-manager calls Lord Peter Mandelson an 'absolute moron' as peer is confirmed as Starmer's new US ambassador
I don't however doubt Mandelson's ability to stoop in deference and grovel if necessary.
Any tax rise can be passed on to staff
Not necessarily. For example tax on profits arent overly easy to pass to staff although I am sure some would have a good go.
Sorry but trying this line "taxes on companies, this is the game you play" really doesnt work when the tax chosen is Employer NI.
It is tied directly to your salary unlike most other business taxes and so is built into any payrise consideration.
Of course there are exceptions eg partners in LLPs are generally considered self employed so pay lower contributions. Which is lucky for all those accountants, lawyers and PE partners in the city.
I don’t however doubt Mandelson’s ability to stoop in deference and grovel if necessary.
Given how many of trumps current bootlickers insulted him in the past including Vance (although admittedly he has now disappeared) I cant see it being an issue.
Especially given Mandelsons happiness to deal with dictators and unpleasant strongman leaders.
Good to see Mandy back.
No, it's not.
For example tax on profits arent overly easy to pass to staff although I am sure some would have a good go
Of course they would. Also, importantly, tax on profit is very easy to avoid or delay… where as taxes based on your PAYE records aren’t.
Employers’ NI contributions is a sound way to tax businesses that is difficult to dodge. Passing it onto employees is what most companies will try and do (while also telling suppliers, customers etc that they need to take it into account when negotiating prices)… but that isn’t a government choice, it is an employer one. Don’t be played.
Good to see Mandy back.
Parody account.
There was a dumb think-tanky lady on Vine today defending privatisation of water.
This is where we are now.
Centrists and stupid right-wingers who talked so much about pragmatism defending the failure of inefficient water companies. Claiming privatisation wasn't done properly.
The think-tanky lady's arguments was it's literally communism to bring back into public control.
Centrists prefer shit in the water and high bills to water communism.
God help us.
Mandelson recently failed in his bid to become Chancellor of Oxford University, so he needed something else to do.
Being Alumni, I actually got to vote in the Oxford Uni election. William Hague won, from outside the Uni.
There were two competent women running, both heads of Oxford colleges. They finished 3rd and 5th (out of 5, in the 2nd round).
Make of that what you will.
water communism.
Water is the source of all life. Seven tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why do you realise that 70% of you is water? And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water - to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
We can't afford to let it fall into commie hands.