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At last! Keir's big idea is finally here, and it's.... Nationalisation.
I mean I don't disagree, but I wonder how much they paid consultants to come up with it. They'll be saying we need stronger unions and higher taxes for the rich next.
Seems sound to me. Increased public ownership is supported by the public when it is presented in terms of public services, rather than as a power grab for the "means of production" (yes, there is no clean line in reality between the two, but the public do want limits on what kind of company/activity the state seeks to take on). The "public money in the pocket of our sponsors and mates" procurement mess of the last twelve months gives a golden opportunity to get more voters on side with this.
Meanwhile, Sir has donned a harrington, adds 'gravitas' (and/or jingoism) with the union flag, declares 'defence is our first priority' and now being 'unashamedly pro-business' (maybe two-tone mohair and brogues will have to replace the harrington). Has he not noticed that Farage is a bit out of fashion? Why would you vote for a nervy wannabe tory when you can get the ebullient real thing? Anyone know where the LP has got more popular under Sir? Half the current LP vote would come grudgingly from highly critical 'supporters' so no reflection on him or his leadership.
Anyone know where the LP has got more popular under Sir?
Boardrooms and private members clubs.
declares ‘defence is our first priority’ and now being ‘unashamedly pro-business’ ... Why would you vote for a nervy wannabe tory when you can get the ebullient real thing?
See... if much of the public keep thinking that the Conservatives are the party of defence and business (they fail on both counts in my opinion) and that Labour are not... if they keep thinking that the Conservatives look after British interests and the continuation of the Union (that are failing horribly on both counts in my opinion) and that Labour will not... they won't change their vote from Conservative to Labour at the next election.
Are 'British interests' those of the employers or the employees? I imagine the Little Englanders he appears to be appealing to couldn't give a hoot about the Union, regional independence more like it. The Red Wall is a class issue, it's not about nationalism or xenophobia.
if they keep thinking that the Conservatives look after British interests and the continuation of the Union (that are failing horribly on both counts in my opinion) and that Labour will not… they won’t change their vote from Conservative to Labour at the next election.
Yes but you're not going to do it the way they're attempting to do it.
You never out-Tory the Tories with jingoism.
Second - You have to convince the electorate there is more to British interests than just sticking a band-aid across a problem that amounts to way more than a flag and being pro-business. Both - which is worth adding - have been simply taken apart by the RWM. (Pro-business especially WTF!)
Third - if Labour want to take this approach - then fight with patriotism against what the Tories have done to the country that has devasted the people that need to vote for them. (I.e You could talk-up improving town centres, infrastructure, job-guarantees, 4-day week, UBI, GND). Things that would make a difference.
if much of the public keep thinking that the Conservatives are the party of defence and business
I'm more than comfortable with the tories being the party of killing people and exploiting workers. Labour have dabbled with the former quite recently and it didn't work out too well.
There are two paths:
1) convince the voters you are now on their side
2) convince the voters that they should be on your side
You can attempt either while keeping most of the left wing policy base that Starmer inherited. Labour has to, in very simplistic and maybe even facile ways, signify the former... even if that upsets us lefties. Labour has to be seen to "back Britain" in a way that political anoraks will hate, I'm afraid. They have to be able to say "the Conservatives have abandoned you, where as we have been listening and moving towards you"... not "we're here and waiting for you, when you change your mind and realise that we've been right all along".
Labour has to be seen to “back Britain”
Labour can do just that by creating an economy where people are fairly paid and supported and given opportunities to better themselves without getting into tens of thousands of pounds of debt. 'Backing Britain' doesn't have to mean threatening violence against foreigners and lining the pockets of millionaires and billionaires.
‘Backing Britain’ doesn’t have to mean threatening violence against foreigners and lining the pockets of billionaires.
Is this Iraq all over again? If so... I never voted Labour 'till Corbyn became leader... in part because of Iraq. But why the reductio absurdum? Has Starmer proposed an invasion somewhere?
But why the reductio absurdum?
You mean like saying labour should be the party of defence and business?
I don't see why anyones getting precious about the labour party parking its tanks on the Tory's lawn, when Boris has just announced he intends to reduce private sector involvement in the NHS*.
The Tory's have never been remotely squeamish about nicking whole swathes of Labours agenda when it thought it would win them some votes.
The labour party needs to be more pragmatic even if that means upsetting the more ideologically pure
* whether he actually does or not remains to be seen
Now the Tories are effectively the Brexit/UKIP party, Labour can take the place of the old conservative party and we just won't have any left wing parties at all.
Anyone with a problem with that is a 6th form cult member.
I don’t see why anyones getting precious about the labour party parking its tanks on the Tory’s lawn
The crux of the issue is that it's easy for the tories to nick labour policies because they're almost always better, more humane and more equiitable policies which the general public are largely in favour of. To do the opposite though is a bit harder, because that usually means labour pretending to be grasping, dispassionate divisive c**** who would sell their own grannies if there was something in it for them.
Can you just point out to me which Tory policies the Labour Party is proposing nicking?
Because I can't see any.
The proposals I see seem to involve changing the public's perception of the party.
And at that point you have to remember that at the last election a large proportion of the countries population thought the party leader was a marxist terrorist-sympathiser.
If they're just sticking the odd flag in shot while making a speech then whats the problem? Its hardly privatising the NHS, is it?
Saying you're unashamedly pro-business should be a no brainer when the Tory PM is on the record as saying '**** business!' and appearing to mean it. You need to get away from this daft lefty idea that anyone who runs a business is some Victorian Mill owner.
The proposals I see seem to involve changing the public’s perception of the party.
Seems that way to me. None of it appeals to me. It's not aimed at me. Labour has to appeal to more than 40% of voters... and even then... the other opposition parties need to be taking far more votes and seats off the Conservatives than they look capable of. Labour have regularly looked like they're not far behind the Tories in opinion polls and share of election votes since 2010... but in election terms they are always miles behind, as a lot of their extra support is people dropping other opposition parties to vote for them. The opposition parties need to be winning over people who have been voting for the Conservatives, not just rearranging the share of the non Conservative voting pie. This will take political signalling (gesture politics if you like) that we lefties are liable to choke on. Well, swallow it down, or it's Tory rule for the rest of our lives.
You never out-Tory the Tories with jingoism.
True, but you can help neutralise patriotism as an issue by singing the national anthem, not being daft about novichok, wreaths on the cenotaph, support for ex-service folk etc.
You need to get away from this daft lefty idea that anyone who runs a business is some Victorian Mill owner.
When labour say they're being pro-business no one thinks they're talking about artisan coffee shops or the local printers. They're talking unashamedly about FTSE listed companies and other business groups who spend millions on lobbying to buy access to policy makers. That's what being 'pro-business' means, not reducing local business rates a percentage point or two.
And what are you basing that statement on?
Sounds like an assumption you've made from a knee-jerk lefty position that 'business' simply means rapacious, profit-hoovering corporations and nothing else.
What evidence do you have, that the rest of us clearly haven't seen, that Starmer plans on cosying up to the tax-avoiding Amazons of the world? Why shouldn't being 'pro-business' mean reducing business rates for artisan coffee shops or the local printers? Thats party policy, isn't it?
Your incredibly cynical worldview suggests that anything short of forcing everyone to become vegan, be carbon neautral by next week and disbanding the armed forces is some kind of neoliberal ultra-capitalist plot and that if the labour party advocates anything less than this then they've somehow capitulated to the corporations
What evidence do you have, that the rest of us clearly haven’t seen, that Starmer plans on cosying up to the tax-avoiding Amazons of the world?
What evidence do you have that he won't? Seeing as that's the status quo now, and the fact he's describing himself as 'unashamedly pro-business', I'd say the burden of proof is on him to demonstrate that he's not like everyone who came before him. When he promises to tax the multinationals the same as everyone else, clamp down on fraud and corruption, and put an end to lobbying and corporate party donations then I'll change my mind. Until then though I'll accept his own words and assume he's as pro-business as the rest of them.
Your incredibly cynical worldview suggests that anything short of forcing everyone to become vegan, be carbon neautral by next week
A worldview so cynical that the numbers of people turning veggie/vegan and reducing their carbon footprint are sky-rocketing. I'm pretty sure I'm not the cynical one here. People are making their own decisions on what they eat and how they live, and they don't require any instructions or encouragement from the labour party.
and that if the labour party advocates anything less than this then they’ve somehow capitulated to the corporations
Don't be silly, I have/had very realistic and extremely low expectations of what the labour party could deliver under any leader, including Corbyn. It's not cynical, it's just a fact. They haven't delivered anything worth shouting about since the Attlee government, I doubt they're about to start now. Always happy to be proved wrong though.
I don't think you win elections on policy, you win by posing the least percieved threat to the public.
Corbyn lost because he was percieved to be a threat. Starmer is banking on getting more votes by being percieved as less of a threat than by trying to win voters with policy ideas.
Given this paradigm, Labour need to engage the public not with policy or 'solutions'. They have to have an effective marketing department like they had with the Blair /Brown regime that can 're position Labour within the public consciousnes and develop an idea of Britishness that that the electorate can feel comfortable with.
In truth they are emerging from the train wreck left by Corbyn and their first job is to regain the trust of the public by being boring and pragmatic. Building a party that is confident in its skin and attractive to the electorate may take some time. I'd give it about 8 or 9 years, to be precise.
I don’t think you win elections on policy, you win by posing the least percieved threat to the public.
That's a pretty idealistic, and if I may say so in the friendliest way possible, a little naive. The public don't really decide elections, the media do. The only election where this rule came close to being overturned was 2017. The labour PR operation isn't selling themselves to the public, they're selling themselves to Murdoch. Unfortunately in today's divided, post-Trump f**** up world, getting Murdoch on the side of the labour party is no longer possible, however boring or conservative the leader is (and Starmer is outdoing everyone right now). There are more lessons to learn for labour from 2017 than 1997.
labour say they’re being pro-business no one thinks they’re talking about artisan coffee shops or the local printers.
Not really SKS-related, but just to point out that small business people are not necessarily goodies and corporate big business necessarily baddies when it comes to progressive and pro-social policies. (Tho both tend to do what they think will pay.)
https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1358771394809655296?s=19
You see that Starmer?
That's some of the left deserting for the Greens - who are ahead of the Libdems. (Seats wouldn't translate of course.)
That’s some of the left deserting for the Greens – who are ahead of the Libdems.
The opposition parties need to be winning over people who have been voting for the Conservatives, not just rearranging the share of the non Conservative voting pie.
I’m more concerned that the Conservatives have held their numbers through all that’s going on. All thoughts of Johnson stepping aside for a clean new leadership should be pushed aside now… he’ll be thinking a second win is entirely doable now. No idea how Starmer makes a dent in that Johnson support, but he absolutely needs to keep his aim on that, and not worry about those who’ll never vote Tory under any circumstances when we’re this far out from the next general election… many will come back when eyes turn to the battles on local seats, and who stands a chance of being their MP, rather than the national picture.
You see that Starmer?
That’s some of the left deserting for the Greens
I’ll give ‘the left’ one thing. They’re consistent. They’ve been absolutely unwavering in their commitment to ensuring permanent Tory government
All thoughts of Johnson stepping aside for a clean new leadership should be pushed aside now
I dont know. It lessens the chance of him being given the boot which was dubious anyway but I am not sure after he has ticked off the box whether he really can be arsed doing the job. He comes across as liking the idea more than the job.
and not worry about those who’ll never vote Tory under any circumstances.
No it really doesnt work that way despite the centrist fantasists. Those people may chose not to vote at all in which case tory win or split the vote in which case tory win.
Treating people like you can just ignore them helped lead to brexit. Its part of what has led to the collapse in Scotland.
I know the centrist ideologues dream of a world where the left wing of the party simply casts their vote and then ****s off to the quiet corner but good luck with that. A viable alternative is needed not just slightly more centre than the rabid right.
They’ve been absolutely unwavering in their commitment to ensuring permanent Tory government
Yes the tories will have been grateful to useful idiots like yourself amplifying their attacks.
By the way are you still deluded enough to think a public inquiry into covid 19 set up by the tories will actually hurt them?
Those people may chose not to vote at all
In a Tory vs Labour battle seat, if one person switches from Labour to not voting, that’s one vote off of Labour’s vote count. If one person switches from voting Conservative to voting Labour, that’s one vote added to Labour’s vote count and one taken off the Conservatives vote count… do the maths yourself. The opposition need to get support off the Conservatives. Labour need to win over Conservative voters. It is the only way to get the Tories out. In the past they have been able to rely on the LibDems taking votes and seats in areas where Labour are weaker… they no longer have that. They have to make a dent in the support for Johnson, and win voters, a hell of a lot of them, away from his party, directly, themselves.
A viable alternative is needed not just slightly more centre than the rabid right.
Absolutely. Sorry, what was your point again? You think that Starmer is moving Labour policy to be ‘slightly more centre than the rabid right’? If so, you’re out of your head.
A viable alternative is needed not just slightly more centre than the rabid right.
Labour have never been more irrelevant than they are now. If they're not willing to stand up for working people and tackle problems like climate change and inequality then there's no alternative for people who are to look elsewhere. It's tragic really, labour could be the leaders we need in a time of multiple crises, but they're just not interested in confronting these problems let alone trying to solve them, and I think lots of people realise that now.
The next General Election is a long way off - any interim musings count for absolute sh*t. When people really vote they won't do it now, so asking them now don't mean nuffink.
Scotland is gone - permanently. NI is what it is, which isn't going to affect Westminster like it did under May any time soon; and Wales is marginal given that it is equally complicit in the whole Brexit debacle.
The only way that Labour can win England - and win England it must - is by bringing the soft-Southern bast*rds with them. The only way they'll do that is with someone like Tony Blair - you know, someone that won't startle the horses.
The only one that looks like that is Starmer.
Keep the Faith.
You have to be in it to win it.
Labour have never been more irrelevant than they are now.
Hmmmmm. What metric are you using to measure that then?
I think you’ll find they were substantially more irrelevant when it really mattered...
At the last general election
And then at the one before that.
Looking at what they delivered when they had their chance - twice - i find the howls of anguish from ‘the left’ mean that Starmer is taking the party in the right direction.
It’s a long, long march back to electoral credibility when the smouldering wreckage of Corbynism is your starting point.
Hmmmmm. What metric are you using to measure that then?
Still behind in the polls and dropping, support bleeding to other parties, members leaving in droves, and more than anything else the absence of any idea in the country at large as to what Starmer and his party stand for. That looks like they're pretty irrelevant to me. Ultimately after a year of Starmer's leadership they're heading in the wrong direction.
Still behind in the polls and dropping
Ultimately after a year of Starmer’s leadership they’re heading in the wrong direction.
Eh? Erm... once again: what metric are you using? Actual numbers?
When grandad finally departed, only 10 months ago, Labour were 26 points behind in the polls.
How you interpret that as 'dropping' and 'heading in the wrong direction' is interesting/bemusing. It clearly isn't, is it? It's a huge shift in the right direction.
I agree completely with what @vazaha is saying. The polling doesn't amount to much at the moment. We're in the middle of a pandemic and I doubt many people are really seriously thinking who they'll be voting for in a general election. They're not paying a right lot of attention to what the leader of HM opposition is saying. But the the reality is that the direction of travel is a huge increase in Labours polling figures from under a year ago, and thus overwhelmingly positive. So he's cutting through a lot at this point in the electoral cycle.
members leaving in droves
What you mean is certain types of members are leaving in droves (and I'd question 'droves'). There was also an influx of a different type of member who joined to vote for a leader who wasn't completely useless.
Given that the type of members you're talking about were strong supporters of a leadership that delivered two consecutive defeats, the second one truly catastrophic, maybe the party is better off and certainly more electable without them.
Everything thus far suggests that this is the case. And let's face it, the members who've left are all happy enough retweeting stuff from the Canary and signing online petitions about Israel. I'm sure the green party will welcome them with open arms, and they'll feel quite at home in an unelectable protest group, that being what they tried to turn the labour party into
When grandad finally departed, only 10 months ago, Labour were 26 points behind in the polls.
Are you going to spend the next 3 years shouting 'but he's more popular than Corbyn'? In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn isn't the benchmark, Johnson is. Yes the polls improved after the media were robbed of their pantomime villain, but that's all it was. They've been static at 40% or lower for quite some time and are now heading in the wrong direction. If the only positive spin you've got on it is 'he's not Corbyn' then you've already admitted defeat. it's a shame, he actually looked like he had some promise in the first 6 months but now the novelty has worn off his dire lack of personality and absence of ideas is obvious for all to see.
Given that the type of members you’re talking about were strong supporters of a leadership that delivered two consecutive defeats, the second one truly catastrophic, maybe the party is better off and certainly more electable without them.
Good grief, not this old cobblers again. Corbyn, as you know perfectly well, enjoyed majority support across all three segments of eligible voters. You also know that Labour suffered consecutive defeats before Corbyn, so the supporters you seem to approve of didn't appear to do much for the party's electability.
As dazh notes, if all you have is "but they're not losing by as much" then you have very little.
I think the bump from abandoning Corbynism has been and gone. Support for Labour was up to 38% in September and it's been there around that ever since.
Since the beginning of January there has been a slight decrease in Labour support but a stronger (inexplicable) increase in Tory support.
Labour voters aren't abandoning the party but no new ones are joining either which is the worrying thing. You can't dine out on the not-Corbyn bump forever, eventually he's going to have to start bringing new voters to the party on his own merits and there's no evidence of that so far.
You can’t dine out on the not-Corbyn bump forever, eventually he’s going to have to start bringing new voters to the party on his own merits and there’s no evidence of that so far.
Well, quite. The 2019 GE, disastrous as it was, produced a similar vote share and seats for Labour as the Tories managed in 2005. They were in power at the next GE so with the right circumstances it can be done.
If the only positive spin you’ve got on it is ‘he’s not Corbyn’ then you’ve already admitted defeat. it’s a shame, he actually looked like he had some promise in the first 6 months but now the novelty has worn off his dire lack of personality and absence of ideas is obvious for all to see.
I'm merely pointing out that the polls have shifted by 20+ points in ten months. How on earth you can view as a negative is completely beyond me.
You talk about a lack of ideas but as Rachel Reeves proved yesterday, when making a speech about exactly the kind of thing she should be talking about - Tory cronyism - nobody is listening.
And it's hardly surprising, is it? The main news yesterday, in the middle of a pandemic, was the potential for a new strain of the virus taking hold that was possibly vaccine resistant.
How may people were listening to what the shadow cabinet secretary was saying about the awarding of government contracts? Were you? It got absolutely zero media coverage. And thats hardly surprising, is it?
Now is not the time for new policy announcements or grand vision speeches, particularly as there won't be a general election for 4 years.
Someone mentioned that there was more to learn from 2017 than 1997, and I tend to agree. If Labour can't form a government after the next general election, the leader absolutely has to step aside for someone else. No attempts to build on the success of losing. Another lesson is that releasing all your manifesto in one go (even if it wasn't deliberate) has both impact and builds trust that it isn't going to creep towards something else. Starmer should do the same. Reinforce some key existing policies over current years, but hold everything new back for a big general election manifesto launch. And no stream of "one more policy" campaign announcements for weeks on end as in 2019. That turned people off and turned them away.
Actually, there was a 20 point shift in 2 months and then no change in 8 months. It's not been a steady and continuing increase.
The lack of continued upward movement is a negative, especially when they are an opposition party and behind in the polls.
The lack of continued upward movement is a negative, especially when they are an opposition party and behind in the polls.
Against a government which has overseen 100k deaths due to their incompetence and corruption. I can only imagine what the Corbyn obsessives like binners would be saying if he was still around.
Against a government which has overseen 100k deaths due to their incompetence and corruption. I can only imagine what the Corbyn obsessives like binners would be saying if he was still around.
"Any other leader and Labour would be 20 points ahead".
Labour have never been 20 points ahead, ever. And never will be, ever. That claim was always nonsense.
Labour have never been 20 points ahead, ever. And never will be, ever. That claim was always nonsense.
Wrong! From wiki:
The 20 points ahead bit was hyperbole anyway presumably but I 100% guarantee if Corbyn was in charge with these numbers in this situation he would be being absolutely pilloried.
Wrong!
Fair enough... perhaps there is far more to learn from Blair in opposition than I'd like to admit to as a leftie. Easy to forget how well he did if you weren't a supporter. I'm obviously in denial.
They have to make a dent in the support for Johnson, and win voters, a hell of a lot of them, away from his party, directly, themselves.
And they also have to retain their existing voters. I also wouldnt be so quick to count out the libdems they could bring themselves back into play but need to decide what they stand for. Admittedly this is undermined by the centrists having abandoned them and seemingly working on turning Labour into their replacement.
You think that Starmer is moving Labour policy to be ‘slightly more centre than the rabid right’? If so, you’re out of your head.
Lucky I didnt say that then. However it is the inevitable end point of your theory of chasing tory voters. We have seen it over the Blair years where the political "centre" shifted rightwards and can see the end results in the USA.
I can only imagine what the Corbyn obsessives like binners would be saying if he was still around.
Not overly difficult since binners is still blaming him for everything despite the glorious leader being in charge for the best part of a year. I think its binners tory tendencies coming through with the habit of always blaming the last labour leader.
You don't "chase tory voters" you engage with the electorate.
I find Starmer a bit of a damp squib but it really doesn't matter at the moment. Even if Labour had a charismatic leader I doubt the polls would look much different. In times of crisis, like a war (or a pandemic) the public naturally become more cautious. In such circumstances incumbent governments invariably get returned. The collective thinking is let's get past this trauma first before we start reinventing the wheel.
The initial poll bump for Labour was obviously the public saying they see Starmer as a safe pair of hands (and by definition, Corbyn a danger). The subsequent stalling in the polls could be seen as Starmer having made as much ground as was possible in respect of re engaging labour voters that had been turned off by Corbyn but it could also be reflective of the fact that, as I mentioned before, people become more cautious in the face of very real and present dangers.
I am not surprised that the polls have levelled off. In normal times the calamitous way the government has governed would see them suffer more in the polls but these aren't normal times.
The mood will be different in a couple of years time and then we'll see what Starmers made of. My money is on a much closer contest but still returning a Tory govt.
This is groundhog day for Labour. They are on the same long road back as they were after the Michael Foot debacle and it took Kinnock, Smith and the duo of Blair and Brown to achieve their aim. (The Tories trod a similar path post Thatcher).
I find Starmer a bit of a damp squib but it really doesn’t matter at the moment.
Likewise. The country might come to see him as a “safe pair of hands”… but I’d be surprised if that was nearly enough to become PM in modern times.
My money is on a much closer contest but still returning a Tory govt.
Mine as well, assuming the current two party leaders. We could be talking about Starmer having “done his job” before rather than after that election though… and someone else taking the reins for the campaign proper… and a new leader trying to bounce Labour into government. It’s not likely, Labour don’t turn on their heals as regards leaders quite like the Conservative party do. And there is always the chance of more unforeseen events that might dominate that election yet… it’s years away.
How may people were listening to what the shadow cabinet secretary was saying about the awarding of government contracts? Were you? It got absolutely zero media coverage.
You also have to look at the media that is either compliant, client, or under their owners orders for ideological reasons.
The subsequent stalling in the polls could be seen as Starmer having made as much ground as was possible in respect of re engaging labour voters
What is also mentioned further up the thread is that you really do need a libdem party that can take seats from the tories where labour can't. The wonders of our voting system eh?
I don't see much change in 'popularity' until the worst effects of the pandemic are over, the unfolding disaster of Brexit is being hidden by this and client journalism in action, but they won't be hidden forever.
As for the departed former 'dear leader', Binners, move on. As for the 'lefties' here, you seriously need to take a look at yourselves if you still arguing the case for corbynite politics after 2015-2019.
you seriously need to take a look at yourselves if you still arguing the case for corbynite politics after 2015-2019.
We need something beyond 'Corbynite' politics. Corbyn was on the right path but was way behind modern thinking on fiscal and monetary policy, industrial reform, climate change and automation, and he didn't even mention electoral reform or regional devolution.
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1360262882466942983?s=19
This is only 1% above the election results 2019.
This comes with all the terrible Tory baggage from the last 12 months - as we all know too well.
Until people have as big of problem with the onslaught of neolibralism (you know the thing that breeds the poisonous status-quo) and as they do socialism nothing is going to stick.
What is evident though despite the Blairite contingent that has been punted by the likes of Ian Dunt (especially during the Corbyn period) - has been demonstrated (as expected) to be causing the contraction of Labour to something built around focus groups, big funders - whilst culling the left. Seriously did Starmer really thing this was the correct direction for a socialist party?
Things can change quickly but I don't think Brexit (as expected) is likely to make the world fall in and with the vaccine doing its thing - can only see the Tories doing better and better.
Yup, voters splitting towards other opposition parties (as they often do years away from an election). Re-slicing the cake does nothing. Unless the opposition parties can win people over from the Conservatives, they are in government for the foreseeable. Starmer (and Davey and Sturgeon and others) need to convince voters to abandon the Conservatives, and take seats of them.
This is only 1% above the election results 2019.
Yeah but one point better than Corbyn is clear evidence that the party is going in the right direction.
Aye, that’s a shit show
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1359832577461338116?s=19
Yougov have a similar story
It's only going to get worse if the vaccine roll out has the desired effect and lockdown walk d progressively relaxed over the spring... Just in time for local, mayoral, Scottish Parly elections in May
Terrible polls. Boris is like teflon. But Labour have to keep pushing the Tory corruption line & if the media don't -point that out aswell.
Have any of you actually stopped to think that you live in a country where most of the people actually want a Tory government?
Just because we don't want that doesn't mean it will happen.
The people who want a tory government won't care how badly the government has done over last 12 months as a) they may not really realise it and b) they think any other party would have done just as badly so they are quite happy with the tory party they have got. They even got Brexit done remember (and again they probably don't realise what a mess that actually is)
Do the majority really want the Tories or does a first past the post system fail when there are more than two parties. Labour Greens LD PC and SNP substantially fishing in the same pond of voters?
SF not taking up their seats doesn't help either
I can't help thinking Labour - with the help of the press - have completely missed the chance to highlight/capitalise on the failings of the government over Covid and Brexit over the last 15 months.
Makes me despair.
Makes me despair.
You shouldn't: Mandleson is back to make everything better.
kerley
Free MemberHave any of you actually stopped to think that you live in a country where most of the people actually want a Tory government?
Well no, on account of in the last "landslide victory" they got 43% of the vote. More people voted for left-of-centre parties, as has been the case in every election in my lifetime.
(I mean, also, I live in Scotland where the tories got 25%)
Have any of you actually stopped to think that you live in a country where most of the people actually want a Tory government?
I do think England gets the government it votes for. I can understand that is frustrating for many.
The people who want a tory government won’t care how badly the government has done over last 12 months as a) they may not really realise it and b) they think any other party would have done just as badly so they are quite happy with the tory party they have got. They even got Brexit done remember (and again they probably don’t realise what a mess that actually is)
My anecdotal view is that people very much underestimate the “Labour would have worse” sentiment out there.
"I do think England gets the government it votes for. I can understand that is frustrating for many"
Imagine what England would look like if Scotland goes for independence. Whilst the SNP wiped out Labour North of the border, at least their seats in the UK parliament form part of the opposition. Without the SNP the Tories position will strengthen considerably.
I do think England gets the government it votes for.
It quite clearly doesn't if you look at the numbers. FPTP really skews the results
Have any of you actually stopped to think that you live in a country where most of the people actually want a Tory government?
That's clearly not the case, unless you want to find me an election where 51% of those eligible voted for them. The fact that this has never happened says more about the legitimacy of our 'democracy' than it does about the support for any one party.
It quite clearly doesn’t if you look at the numbers. FPTP really skews the results
England gets the government that has gerrymandered the voting boundaries to benefit itself and not its opposition.
FPTP is a proper poison in our process.
That’s clearly not the case, unless you want to find me an election where 51% of those eligible voted for them. The fact that this has never happened says more about the legitimacy of our ‘democracy’ than it does about the support for any one party.
Yep, we are using a crappy system but we are using that system nonetheless and in that system more people vote for the tory government than any other party and those people are happy that thy did and would do so again tomorrow.
Whining about the system is not going to change that.
Whining about the system is not going to change that.
No, but electoral reform is, and pointing out we need electoral reform is the first step.
Usually when polled about specific policies the policies of the Tory party come out pretty badly and smaller parties like the Greens do very well. There is a desperate need for electoral reform but it won't happen without a big push from the people and obviously it is against the best interests of the ruling party. I actually think Labour would do well out of it and should be phasing it in.
Blair and Brown could see how the landscape was changing in a globalised and de-unionised world. They were conscious of the fissures that had been created by Thatcher in the working class block vote. She'd won over Essex Man and the south east, (the first red wall to fall).
In a way, Labour's decision to ditch the New Labour moniker was Labour's own internal Brexit, an attempt to return to the halcyon days when Labour repped for the working classes. They didn't realise that the fragile alliance that had existed between progressive intellectuals and the working classes no longer existed.
Cohesive class identities have been replaced by a nationalist identities. The word 'Labour' doesn't mean anything any more. It's an anachronism, a 20th century idea that is no longer fit for purpose.
Changing the party name to New Labour was a brilliant move. It implicitly recognised that things had changed and implied a readiness for the new century. Owning the word 'New' in the political lanscape was a masterstroke as well, it implies an inbuilt capacity to refresh, to re-boot and adapt. Ditching the name in order to drape yourself in the flag of socialism was a trap Labour made for themselves, a fateful decision that condemns Labour to never being new again.
Ouch!
Ouch indeed. I was okay with Starmer having a go at leader (especially after the Corbyn mess) but as I said at the time each leader should be given 6 months to prove they have it and it is clear that Starmer doesn't "have it". Most of the public probably don't even know who he is!
No point waiting another 4 years to find out he wasn't the right choice for leader...
Another party might keep him place for now, come what may, and then quickly replace him with about 10 months to go before the next election. Labour don’t do that though… they take a lifetime to change a leader… only do so when they feel they absolutely have to, rather than in an “opportunist” fashion, and sometimes don’t even do so after losing a general election.
Even his cheerleaders on here seem to have gone a bit quiet. Things must be bad.
Who are his cheerleaders? Dazh voted for him I think, but other that, people keep popping in to defend him against nonsense claims, but I don’t think he has any huge fans here, or people that think he can win the next election. I think he’d make a good solid caretaker PM, but isn’t inspirational enough to win a general election. He was probably still the best choice of the candidates to get through the initial post Straight Left years.
They were discussing Starmer this morning on Five Live and the first comment stated the obvious:
Now that the Tory’s have become UKIP, when Boris said ‘* business, he really did mean it.
Now that the party has abandoned the majority of the self-employed to their pandemic fate, largely unsupported, and the combination of Brexit and the Covid response has *rd over SME’s big-time, surely that’s a whole constituency of traditional Tory voters there to be courted?
Given that the Labour Party has to convert Tory voters to Labour to be in with a chance of winning an election, there’s an open goal there.
Starmer needs to start being far bolder now. There’s surely many traditional Tory voters who are open to being persuaded now the party they’ve always voted for is more concerned about having a ‘war on woke’ than it is on supporting business, commerce or education. Plenty must be pretty despairing.
The Tory’s under Boris are hardly very aspirational, are they? Unless your only aspiration is to get rid of foreigners