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but I thought his mission was complete now?
Hardly. It now looks even more likely that Labour will win a general election in 2 years time. And whilst Starmer has done a fantastic job expelling left-wingers from the party for the vaguest excuses it clearly isn't enough for Austin.
Like the newspapers that he writes for, the Daily Telegraph, the Sun, and the Daily Mail, who definitely want the Tories to win, Austin probably thinks that Starmer should accelerate the process and expell anyone for simply being left-wing, without even bothering with having the pretense of an excuse like this one:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-expelled-caroline-lucas-tweet-b2230584.html?amp
In contrast to how right-wingers like himself in the Labour Party who were deliberately doing whatever they could to undermine Labour's election chances, were treated when spineless Corbyn was leader:
A Labour spokesperson said: “The Labour party takes all allegations of abusive behaviour extremely seriously. These are fully investigated in line with party rules and procedures.”
Yeah right, heckling the leader of the party from the floor of the House of Commons, or publicly calling him a ****ing racist, isn't abusive behaviour. But liking a tweet by Caroline Lucas is.
What a disgrace.
is coming out
Oh dear
'Oh dear' indeed.
You really are desperately trying to push your line that criticism of Wes Streeting is motivated by homophobia.
I am not sure if you consider the Guardian and the BMA to be part of a homophobic conspiracy but they seem agree with BillMC's criticism of Streeting:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/11/wes-streeting-labour-bma-nhs-plans-gps
It wasn’t so long ago that Mr Streeting and the Labour Party were clapping healthcare workers for their contributions during the pandemic, so to hear them now accusing staff of a ‘something for nothing’ culture and potentially supporting further real-terms pay cuts will leave many staff extremely concerned.”
You really are desperately trying to push your line that criticism of Wes Streeting is motivated by homophobia
I was finding humour. Maybe I should use more smileys? I'm a smiley kind of guy.*
*Maybe not.
I am not sure if you consider the Guardian and the BMA to be part of a homophobic conspiracy
I don't.
but they seem agree with BillMC’s criticism of Streeting:
Inaccurate. That's actually a news report that the BMA don't agree with Streeting, not the guardian's "opinion" on streeting.
The BMA are very much a union which acts on behalf of its members, and probably worthy of it's own thread. On which I would don my asbestos underpants before posting as its members interests are not always aligned with those of the rest of us.
Streeting is a "tory" in the wrong party and a willing to take a bribe to bat for his masters which are private health companies. According to him the answer is privitisation. An utter fink
Inaccurate. That’s actually a news report that the BMA don’t agree with Streeting, not the guardian’s “opinion” on streeting.
No one has mentioned "opinion".
BillMC claimed: "Streeting is coming out against the health service unions"
The very first sentence of the Guardian article claims: "Wes Streeting has again criticised the British Medical Association (BMA) in a war of words with the doctors’ union"
I see those two comments as pretty much the same.
No one has mentioned “opinion”.
you said the guardian 'agreed' with BillMC's pithily expressed views about what streeting said about "the health service unions". The Guardian was not "agreeing with a view" it was reporting what the BMA were saying about Streeting. And it's not health service unions plural, it's BMA who are a very particular case. So what you said was inaccurate.
And to TJA you think Streeting's a tory and can keep repeating this. I don't, but probably lack your stamina, so ducking out again.
Streeting says the issues with the NHS can be solved by chucking money at the private sector. He takes bribes from private health companies. He is no socialist
The Guardian was not “agreeing with a view”
The Guardian is very clearly agreeing with BillMC's claim that Wes Streeting has been criticising the BMA. As is very clearly illustrated in the first few words of the Guardian's article:
"Wes Streeting has again criticised the British Medical Association (BMA) in a war of words with the doctors’ union"
How is that any different to what Bill has said?
I have to say John if the best you can come up with in your desperate attempt to defend Wes Streeting is to argue semantics, after a failed attempt to call out homophobia - apparently it was just a joke, then that really speaks volumes.
Why don't you just make the case that Streeting is right to attack healthcare professionals working in the NHS. Can't make it?
How is that any different to what Bill has said?
It's different because they're reporting what the BMA say about Streeting, not expressing any view of their own on the correctness of this. It's also quite different to your saying I think the guardian is part of a homophobic conspiracy.
I have to say John if the best you can come up with in your desperate attempt to defend Wes Streeting is to argue semantics, after a failed attempt to call out homophobia – apparently it was just a joke, then that really speaks volumes.
Desperate?? Yeah, okay... 🙂
Failed attempt? You're entitled to your views. It was probably a little mean of me as BillMC probably didn't understand the nuances of the 'pet shop boy' thing he reposted, and was using 'coming out' a little carelessly under the circumstances. Whatever, he can make his own excuses.
Why don’t you just make the case that Streeting is right to attack healthcare professionals working in the NHS.
Because I don't think that's what he's doing.
Can’t make it?
You'll have to ask rather more nicely if you want me to make a case for something I don't believe to be true :-;
It’s different because they’re reporting what the BMA say about Streeting,
So it's different because it is a much longer article than Bill's post and they are also reporting what the BMA has said.
But before that the very first thing they do is to agree with with Bill and report that Wes Streeting has criticised the BMA. They report that as a fact, they don't offer if as an opinion.
Desperate??
Yeah you appear desperate. You are arguing semantics ffs.
Because I don’t think that’s what he’s doing.
Well if you don't think he is attacking the BMA then you obviously haven't read the article. He is very clearly attacking them, the article even quotes him directly.
reporting what the BMA has said.
penny drops. And we can talk about the BMA another time. I really am checking out now.
Well it is you that has been denying the claim that Wes Streeting has been publicly criticising healthcare professionals working in the NHS.
Something which all news providers from the Daily Telegraph to the Guardian has been reporting, and which BillMC earlier drew attention to.
If you want to drop it now it comes as no surprise. The only surprise is how you persisted with something that was so clearly false.
If you want to defend Wes Streeting at least have the courage to say that he is right to criticise healthcare professionals working in the NHS. And maybe explain why.
https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1602303496015196160?t=yWxaXJ1B-fLzdeH6joYLYg&s=19
I guess that's the Coalition of Chaos ruled out 😅
Know your place serfs
<p class="dcr-vlranc"><span class="dcr-vlranc">You can only assume that Wes Streeting’s recent embrace of the private hospital sector as a solution to the current health crisis stems from naivety about how UK private healthcare works, or is part of the Labour leadership’s attempts to turn it into a party of the centre right.</span></p>
<p class="dcr-vlranc">It is certainly not based on evidence.</p>
Actually I believe its simple corruption. Streeting has taken bribes from private healthcare companies. He is completely unfit to serve as health minister
. And whilst Starmer has done a fantastic job expelling left-wingers from the party for the vaguest excuses it clearly isn’t enough for Austin
Okay. Well I've not heard a peep out of him recently until now.
Streeting says the issues with the NHS can be solved by chucking money at the private sector. He takes bribes from private health companies. He is no socialist
He's totally out of his depth, and a rabid liar. Not much experience either (student union anyone. ) But he is well media trained.
If the private sector can solve issues with the NHS then so can the state, at a more direct economic magnitude.
They're the same issues, only difference is government can pay. Job done.
Anything else is just wasting money on profit. He has no economic or ethical rationale for anything he says.
He's an embarrassment to his position.
Every day goes by and Labour become the bad cover version of the Tories, bereft of solid inspirational ideas. Same old private sector lies - allocating resources better twaddle.
And to TJA you think Streeting’s a tory and can keep repeating this. I don’t, but probably lack your stamina, so ducking out again.
What's he said that's makes you believe he's remotely to the left, and not using the market for delivery?
Ok so this is now Wes! Streeting!
On the private sector in UK healthcare let's first look at Ernie's favourite union's advice on the matter...
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/private-practice
Basically a lot of stuff like pay salaries and dividends to family members, take dividends, invest surplus company assets, and keep as much money in the business as possible with a view to drawing on these assets during retirement (when personal tax levels will be lower) rather than much more than double your salary.
For what zero my opinion is worth, I agree with every word pretty much of that article. But I think it more contextualises than contradicts the streeting piece, because this is right too:
I love the NHS. There were lots of things I worried about when I went through treatment for kidney cancer, but the one thing I never had to worry about was the bill. The NHS is free at the point of use and funded through progressive taxation because Labour created it and those are our values. They will be erased over my dead body.
Nye Bevan said in 1948 that “this service must always be changing, growing and improving”. In the Labour party, we have always understood that the NHS needs to change to adapt to modern challenges. Today, the NHS must do better for patients who are being badly let down. It is those opponents of reform who prove themselves to be the true conservatives.
The truth is that we spend far too much money in our hospitals because we don’t focus enough on prevention, early intervention and social care. As a result, patients end up in A&E because they can’t get a GP appointment, reach crisis point because they can’t get mental health support, or are trapped in hospital because there is no social care available.
Hospitals suck up the money because they have the power in the system and that's not right. It's going to take a lot of tackling. The private sector stuff is just an interim sticking plaster at best but can pragmatically add a bit of capacity which is really needed.
Anything else is just wasting money on profit.
And in the case of private healthcare stripping staff from the NHS. Private healthcare is more expensive per person treated and less safe
but can pragmatically add a bit of capacity which is really needed.
It cannot. Thats the falsehood
Not every difference of view is a "falsehood"/lie. There's no need to do this, really.
Yes it's the same surgeons we've paid to train boshing through hips at £10-£15k a pop and their fee is a lot of that, four hips a session, couple of sessions a day. It doesn't add to the number of surgeons in the nation able to do work if that's what you're calling a falsehood? But does mean they can be deployed (at high price) onto NHS waiting lists. This was done early 2000s from memory. Don't make me google for refs though there are loads. And don't ask me to say it's a good thing (if you're one of those waiting for a hip replacement who is now able to get it on the NHS you're allowed to think it's a good thing).
Using private hospitals does not create any extra capacity
Due to the tories deliberate running down on the NHS the middle classes are diverting in droves to private and waiting lists are now many month long in the private sector as well
Private hospitals do not have the facilities required for complex surgery on sick patients and any useage of the private sector will result in more patients being transferred to NHS hospitals when things go wrong
The same money spent in the NHS would create far more capacity
Streeting is lying because he is being paid by private healthcare to promote private healthcare not because he is deluded or mistaken or genuinely believes it. He is being paid by private healthcare to do this
It would be counterproductive and waste money. Thats what all those who really understand healthcare say.
Using private hospitals does not create any extra capacity
Due to the tories deliberate running down on the NHS the middle classes are diverting in droves to private and waiting lists are now many month long in the private sector as well
Private hospitals do not have the facilities required for complex surgery on sick patients and any useage of the private sector will result in more patients being transferred to NHS hospitals when things go wrong
The same money spent in the NHS would create far more capacity
agree
Streeting is lying because he is being paid by private healthcare to promote private healthcare
That would be a motive for him to lie, I guess. He'd reject the assertion he's paid to lie, but let's leave that for now. It does not make everything he says into a lie. The logic does not follow.
It would be counterproductive and waste money. Thats what all those who really understand healthcare say.
There are better ways to spend the money, I think I've just said. Though pharmacists and opticians have always been mainly private sector, and GPs are independent contractors. And dentistry... Oh dear dentistry. I'd nationalise the lot tbh.
However, there are people who understand healthcare better than me who will take a different line. Whether it would be counter productive is an empirical question.
Ah here we go:
I should pull out a specific ref for direct treatment centres. But basically the NHS ones were better than private sector. Doesn't mean it has to be that way in future of course, though I suspect it will be. Whatever, I'd be keen to see Wes have a go even if he's saying stuff I suspect for strategic reasons. If he's doing it for pay his rates are woefully low.
Now what was it I said about stamina?
so from that you agree its stupid to rely on private providers? Seems you agree with everything I say.
being corrupt is the obvious answer to why Streeting is doing this. there is no evidence for doing this and plenty against. Occams razer says he is simply corrupt
I'm going to always come at this from the economic side of things.
But key for me is that the UK government can always afford what's available.
If there's capacity in the NHS to deliver then there's a cheque waiting.
It might take a long time to deliver but there's zero reason to look to the private sector for this.
Things are falling apart with the reliance on the private sector to somehow create magic efficiencies to deliver better service.
Labour are utterly trapped because of this. This is what household budgeting does to the economy - it means less state money for everything and because the private sector pot is drying up then that is totally inadequate too.
Private sector can only do a decent job if the state is properly invested first. Not the other way around.
Private healthcare is ultimately a nonsense as you have the same group of people needing attention. Everyone is still fighting for the same resources.
The same limiting factor.
Putting a fee in the way is totally inefficient in itself. You're just controlling who has access to what by income rather than solving the original problem.
Economic side of things? Extra shift for a hospital doctor: £1k, from an agency: £5.25k.
Economic side of things? Extra shift for a hospital doctor: £1k, from an agency: £5.25k.
Nailed.
This whole market economy only works if you understand that all is happening you are just servicing less and less of the population effectively.
And you brush them under the carpet.
But the rub is they're still part of society so you still have a problem to fix!
This is the thing with strikes - they can mostly be sorted by the government's purse - but once they cave the charade of government spending is blown. This is why they stick them out until the public tire of the strikers.
johnx2 Free Member
let’s first look at Ernie’s favourite union’s advice on the matter…
I know that you are quite relaxed about what is actually a fact and what constitutes the truth John but my recognition of the undeniably fact, despite your desperate denials, that Wes Streeting has publicly criticised healthcare professionals working within the NHS does not automatically equate with the BMA being favourite trade union.
I do not consider any trade union not affiliated to the TUC to be a legitimate trade union. The BMA was forced, reluctantly, by a Conservative government to register as a trade union, I don't rely on Tory governments to tell me what a trade union is.
Doctors can join Unite if they want to join a proper trade union as opposed to just a professional body.
Of course all this is a deliberate distraction on your part as Wes Streeting's attack on healthcare professionals working within the NHS goes far beyond the BMA:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/
"Mr Streeting said a Labour government could not afford the pay rises nurses are seeking"
I doubt that many nurses employed by the NHS have membership of the BMA.
Its worth noting again that the scottish nurses have settled their pay claim ( well a couple of ballots still to come in but it looks like it). Of course the English NHS disputes could be settled with the political will and affordably at that
labours aversion to the SNP is preventing them using the scottish example to beat the tories with. They cannot admit the SNP get anything right and thus canot use this to attack the tories
labours aversion to the SNP is preventing them using the scottish example to beat the tories with.
Nah, it's ideology/political commitment that makes Wes Streeting say stuff like this: "a Labour government could not afford the pay rises nurses are seeking”, it has nothing to do with the SNP.
And not least because he is a member of the Labour Party Wes Streeting knows full well that the pay rise a trade union asks for and what they are prepared to accept can be very significantly different.
He is playing to the gallery as he attempts to portray nurses as being unreasonable and making unaffordable demands whilst offering himself to voters as the reasonable guy who will be tough on greedy and unrealistic trade unions.
At anytime it would be deplorable for a senior Labour politician to publicly attack healthcare workers with cheap disingenuous shots. But to do it at a particularly critical time when they are engaged in making legitimate demands, from a right-wing Tory government which has had such a negative effect on the NHS, is particularly galling.
By portraying nurses as making unreasonable demands Wes Streeting is without a shadow of a doubt assisting the current Tory government - they really couldn't wish for more from a Shadow Health Secretary.
Wes Streeting’s attack on healthcare professionals working within the NHS goes far beyond the BMA:
Er, from your link Ernie:
The MP for Ilford North said that if Labour won the election he would not hesitate to take on unions holding back the cause of patients, singling out the British Medical Association (BMA) for being “hostile” to the idea that patients should expect better standards.
...also to TJ,
Seems you agree with everything I say.
Deal with it 😎. I'm not the enemy.
Also, the same telegraph piece talks about £15m funding for lab from unions. Its readers (not Ernie) might be persuaded that this somehow could be a bribe. It's just not helpful language to chuck about.
Right. I've earned another week or so off this thread. Let's see who can resist the last word. Bet it's me 😁.
it is bribery tho - its exactly what it is. Taking money from dubious sources to promote them. Streeting is corrupt. Thats why he is promoting private healthcare as a solution when it isn't. Pure corruption
You seemed to be saying that Streetings position on using private healthcare was sensible but then all the quotes you gave showed how stupid it is
Neither of us will have the last word - I too only dip in and out of this 🙂
Right. I’ve earned another week or so off this thread. Let’s see who can resist the last word 😁.
Is this not the third time today that you have declared no more contributions from you on this thread?
Despite your apparent best intentions it is clearly you that can't "resist".
Oh he is well media trained. Its doesn't mean he is not a corrupt tory tho. His comments on the NHS strikes are appalling as are his picking a fight with GPs for no reason other than to look tough. Straight out of the tory playbook
Bang on TJ, politics does not equal presentation.
Quiet in here despite Starmer's embarrassing performance at PMQs yesterday and his failure to support the nurses. If a labour leader can't support nurses who have been forced to strike for the very first time then just what the **** is he doing in that job?
If a labour leader can’t support nurses who have been forced to strike for the very first time then just what the **** is he doing in that job?
It's quite the question, isn't it?
Who is he more scared of when it comes to the optics of supporting the nurses?
The Home Counties would be Libdem voters?
Labour's former supporters in the Red Wall who went all Brexity?
I suspect, unfortunately, the answer is both.
Two spineless leaders unable to get behind its population and help them have a better standard of living.
Let's make enemies of them instead?
What a time to be alive.
The sad thing is this is all fixable. The market is making a complete mess of living standards.
High inflation, higher interest rates, deflating wages, shockingly poor government investment, local authorities on their knees.
I'm mean what will it take to turn the taps on?
Nurses with more money is GOOD for the economy. They will spend their money!
The whole thing is so dumbass on any economic level.
https://twitter.com/DouglasKMurray/status/1603098978186579968?t=n6natLcb9hidsypG61KyTw&s=19
The brainless libertarians continue their ridiculous understanding of consumer economics.
Thickless Murray doesn't understand to get the economy he celebrates then you need a source of money to spend. Doug, that's the wage increase that you're pushing against.
(Also Starmer spending time recently on the Lords thing. Jesus. What a priority.)
Labour’s former supporters in the Red Wall who went all Brexity?
The vast majority of those people will themselves work or have family and friends who work in the NHS/care sector. Starmer has nothing to lose by supporting the nurses in the red wall.
There were some good policies coming from the party conference, it looked like the start of a change of direction. But I have absolutely no confidence in him having the principles to carry through on even them. Every time he is tested he is much more tory than labour, when he is emboldened by circumstances he can present a progressive facade, but any pressure and he veers to the right. That does not bode well for his potential leadership of the country, he will be far too easily swayed by the city and "markets" and the right wing press, he will be far too easily manipulated by the narrative they will present.
Finger on the pulse of topical issues for working people.. 🙄
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1603375785728942087?s=20&t=Ad0pFBOj7BWOZgTHhA44Ng
That video couldn't be more uninspiring and pointless.
It appears only Corbyn had the guts to actually do anything new - despite all the obvious arguments against.
Business beige will not survive the population. Centrists have a lot to answer for.