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So now is a great time to be self-indulgent with your voting …… LibDem, Official Monster Raving Loony Party, whatever.
Every vote is needed to get rid of the tories.
????
Yeah Daz has a different view to me, in his overdramatic world every vote counts. IMO once you hit the threshold further votes become essentially irrevalant.
Although having said that I would love to see Labour with a 300 seat majority rather than a perfectly adequate 30 seat majority, it would make the PLP incredibly difficult for Starmer to control.
in his overdramatic world every vote counts.
Ernie you're funny. It's not really about votes counting, more the liberal virtue signalling about the EU that annoys me. I don't particularly want to vote labour at the moment either as Starmer's policies are far to the right and lacking in the radicalism of what I would like. But I will for no other reason than there are people in our society who desperately need a different govt. It's easy for me though cos I live in a tory-lib ultra marginal. Not much point worrying about it if you live in a safe labour seat.
Well I guess that this:
Helps to explain this :
And still no one has been expelled from the Labour Party for being responsible for condemning human beings to live in conditions that it is probably illegal to keep pigs in.
The former Labour leader and the finance head were "suspended" from the Labour Party nearly two years ago but their expulsion have still not been announced.
Lucky for them they are both right-wingers so can expect a sympathetic ear from Starmer's Labour Party.
In contrast left-wingers face fast track expulsion from the Labour Party in Croydon, especially if they are discovered to have criticized Israel a few years ago on social media.
Criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians under occupation, despite the fact that the United Nations regularly does it, is considered more serious in Starmer's Labour Party than condemning council tennants to live in subhuman conditions unmatched in any Tory council.
https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1600600873566359553
This is so desperately pathetic, and ill-informed. You 'Streeting' afford nothing. The government however can afford whatever is available and NEEDED.
The Labour front bench specialises in giving me no reasons to vote for them. Especially Streeting.
Country is desperate for a positive direction - you're not getting it with Labour. Starmer or Streeting apologists please don't jump on the end of this and tell me how this is a good thing.
Full circle again for me - this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years. Not a chance currently I will be voting for this line up.
Time and time again we've discussed how government's (with control of their own finances, own central banks etc) don't run out of cash (an impossiblity) and how it works against Labour's raison d'etre.
There really is no hope.
this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years
Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)
Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)
I think voters want better - they just have had the debate so messed up no one knows what actually could be done with a party that has the tools and the drive.
Can you understand a how voter can only want an alternative if it's actually sold as an alternative?
There's always a third way. The whole debate we have is built around polarisation. Messed up neolibralism or slightly tweaked neolibralism. The alternative to both doesn't have to be Communism either.
There is definitely a better option - clearly. Not my fault no one wants to fight for it.
Spineless - the lot of them.
Is it unreasonable with Labour's massive advantage currently to stop talking like a Tory legal team?
Why is it so hard to say the very rich have had it too good for too long at the expense of everyone else - here's how we should fix that. And we don't need their cash to fix it. We can pay those good state wages, we can have a functioning state, health service and police force. We have the power to make it happen. We can rebuild high-streets and infrastructure. We have the capacity. Bottom up.
Why is that a vote loser?
You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone.
The Labour right-wing feel that all they need to offer the country is the same policies but under a new management. At the moment that strategy is working fine because they have successfully focused on the management as being the problem, not policies.
However once in government, which Labour are all but certain to be within the next two years, it will be a whole new ball game.
For a start the reasonability of government will then fall on Labour. You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people's needs, which if that is the case the next Labour government will find itself in a crises very quickly indeed.
Keir Starmer I have absolutely no doubt will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate Prime Minister. He is clearly a totally crap leader of the Opposition who has had the extreme good fortune of watching the Tories eat each other, and they preform own goals after own goals, as they simultaneously try to implement failed policies.
As PM Starmer will need to be decisive and give a clear response to every new development, he won't be able to leave that sort of thing to Angela Rayner, or other Front Benchers as he currently does. I can't envisage any situation where he would last a whole term, I would expect him to last no more than a few months.
Hopefully Labour will have a huge parliamentary majority, possibly two hundred or more. As the crisis of government unfolds I would expect party discipline to collapse and factions within the PLP to form.
If a right-wing Labour government fails to deliver on the aspirations of ordinary working people I would expect the trade unions to pull the rug from under them - I really think they are drinking at last chance saloon in that respect, a fact which many right-wingers are no doubt aware of.
The Tories are likely to be an extremely weak and utterly discredited force after the next general election, with possibly their worse result in 200 years so of much less relevance, the threat for the Labour right-wing is more likely to be from the left - of the Labour Party, SNP, PC, etc.
IMO the most important aspect of the volatile political crisis yet to come will be to have a massive Labour majority. If a Labour government fails to respond in the interests of ordinary working people it will leave both the Tories and Labour utterly discredited.
The obvious area of concern would be the rise of the far-right, but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries. The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.
the same policies but under a new management
Utter bollocks. I read no further, sorry. The pub beckons…
Well I didn't write it expecting you to agree, but thanks for the confirmation anyway.
And yes, you definitely did the right thing not reading it any further - loads more stuff that you wouldn't have agreed with.
Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?💡
The pub beckons…
I'm down your local tonight Kelvin if you're around. 🙂
but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries.
Not like we don't have any popular characters on the far right who have proven they can massively influence politics beyond their non-existent parliamentary representation. Oh..
The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.
Recent history would appear to also discredit this statement. Much as I was excited by the Corbyn project and disappointed at its ultimate failure, it came about as a result of some very specific and unusual circumstances which I doubt will ever be repeated. Apart from the tiny RMT, I see little evidence of any real anti-establishment leadership in the union movement. Most of the union bosses have far too much to lose to risk rocking the boat too much.
It's interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail. I fully expect to be disappointed, but I don't want to be. The only winners from a Starmer failure will be the tories.
Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?
I can recommend that strategy.
Why is that a vote loser?
Because they won't believe it. Even the mild stuff Corbyn was offering was not believed and questioned on how anyone could possibly do it. The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It’s interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail.
Actually my comment was specifically aimed at rone, plenty of clues such as "You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone" and "You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people’s needs". I was responding to specific points rone made.
But anyway it has nothing to do with me "wanting" anything. My comment was with regards of the reality of the situation, not that I "want" Labour to win and then fail.
The reality is that Labour will almost certainly win the next general election with, in all likelihood, a huge majority, whatever I want.
Also very likely is that the next Labour government will pursue economic policies not significantly different to Tory economic policies, fiscal prudence etc., whatever I might want.
Like rone I don't believe that it will solve the issues confronting ordinary working people - cost of living crises etc. I believe that it will fail.
What I "want" is a Labour government elected which shifts economic power in favour of ordinary working people. Whilst I am not as pessimistic as rone appears to be I am sufficiently enough of a realist to accept that that will not be an easy struggle.
The obvious area of concern would be the rise of the far-right, but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries.
Ernie slags of Europe again. On any reasonable measure which European country has the furthest right government at present, in power rather than just a minority part of the political landscape? Prove to me it's not the UK.
Good points, Rone, and it shouldn't be a vote loser. Corbyn forgot those points and went on 1974 style comrade rants, Blair forgot them when in power and now Starmer is one of the rich with a fancy lifestyle who backs away from socialist pledges as fast as they're written.
An Arsenal season ticket doesn't make him a man of the people, and frankly, Arsenal: Stan Kroenke the owner gave 10 times as much to Trumps campaign as Clintons in 2016 and so popular with fans they protested and demand he sell the club after the European super league affair. Anyone with morals wouldn't contribute to the 70 million profits or even walk into Emirates Stadium.
The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
Posted 11 minutes ago
Ernie makes a personal attack on someone for dishing out persona insults (that aren't even personal because talking aboout the whole electorate isn't personal). Where's one of those irony meter pics?
These threads eh!
These threads eh!
Yeah there's this geezer in France who reckons that he "despises" the leader of the British Labour Party, claims that the French far-right leader is "goody two shoes" in comparison, and then claims that the UK has the most right-wing government in Europe.
These political threads eh?
So much respect for people with differing opinions.
My reference to personal insults wasn't what you appear to think it was btw Ed.
Go on then Ernie, prove me wrong. Which EU country is further to the right than the UK?
From the top of my head:
Italy, Hungary, France.
OK, nerd, find me expulsions equivalent to Windrush in those countries with people expelled after 50 odd years of legal residency.
All three are still in the EU and haven't had a racisism led exit.
At least two are more welcoming to refugees in terms of per capita entries
Check which country has the longest hsopital waiting lists as that's a good measure of how leftward leaning a country is.
Which country deals most with money laundring and tax havens.
Which is the least democratic with a monarchy
Prove me wrong rather than just show your prejudices. Objective criteria. How about: " exclusive nationalist essentialism/exceptionalisxm, counter-Enlightenment dogmatism and political authoritarianism".
UKIP and Brexit and UK immigration policy dwarf any other European movement - 52% voted for it. More anti-woke than th eUK in Europe, Hungary was a good try but France and Italy? Objectively no.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
Indeed.
My irony meter needs recalibrating, the scale is too short.
Are you having trouble reading it?
Je le savais.
Acuse people of " a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority."
and it might remind them of things:
" How did the schools teach us this sense of superiority? The language was always chipping away – in the documentary Public School the boys casually refer to “the lower orders”, as if to a species difference, reptiles considering insects. In our isolation we learned that we were special. Everyone else was less special and often stupid – school was where we went, aged eight, to learn to despise other people."
Anything to say about Starmer, mefty? Or just here to lord it over us.
Or just here to lord it over us.
Just here to pop the balloon of your pomposity.
EDIT: Is Public School the documentary they made about Radley?
All three are still in the EU and haven’t had a racisism led exit.
You think the only measure of a state's inherent racism is whether they're a member of the EU? Ed you really are deluded. The EU is as much of a racist entity as almost all other western ex-colonial nation states. The EU, UK, US, Australia etc have almost identical policies towards immigrants, military operations, international trade, aid and development. Racism is in their DNA.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
The population that has voted in the most corrupt tory party for the last 12 years and until recently probably would have continued to do so until they self imploded.
The population that also voted for Brexit
So yes I call them brainwashed idiots and yes I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don't we so just something I have to live with.
So yes I call them brainwashed idiots and yes I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don’t we so just something I have to live with.
You're no better, none of us are. If you are so superior to the so-called brainwashed idiots who vote the wrong way what are you doing to change it? Presumably you have some superior masterplan which goes beyond putting a single cross in a box once every few years like everyone else? Ultimately your vote and opinion counts no more or less than anyone else's, so if everyone else is a brainwashed idiot, then so are you.
I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don’t we so just something I have to live with.
It must be really tough for you.
Although if feeling superior makes you happy then I guess it's not all doom and gloom.
Didn't say it was tough, just the way things are. If you seriously don't feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter then not sure what I can say to you.
What's my masterplan, start a revolution of course. Just about to kick one off next week as it happens.
What’s my masterplan, start a revolution of course. Just about to kick one off next week as it happens.
I'm busy til Christmas ,can you wait a couple of weeks?
If you seriously don’t feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter then not sure what I can say to you.
And yet all these superior people always find themselves on the losing side! 🤷♂️
Sorry to miss you Dazh, was in Sheffield for work xmas do. See you another time.
Not missed anything of substance in this thread though, have I.
Not missed anything of substance in this thread though, have I.
Conversation in the pub was of a much higher standard obvs. 🙂
If you seriously don’t feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter
Of course I don't feel personally superior to a racist Tory voter. I might feel that I am right and they are wrong but I don't go down the road of feeling that I am somehow a superior human being.
I am fully aware that we are all to a great extent a product of our upbringing and our environment. So if anything I would describe it as feeling lucky rather than feeling superior.
What I am prepared to do is challenge, which presumably you don't believe is worth doing as according to you "the electorate are brain washed idiots", and it is just something that you have to live with.
I strongly believe that you can change people's attitudes. Although obviously not if you dismiss them as brain washed idiots.
Btw you don't appear to be following your own recommendation of not reading my posts kerley......too hard to resist?
Come on pass the cringe pipes.
https://twitter.com/Streettough/status/1601776715730063362?t=Abctr4c9Wm0LrMUrjxsoTQ&s=19
The breeding ground for the Labour right is digging up old favourites.
Hoping the public get fed up and join in the race to the bottom.
I thought Austin had cleared off for good.
Well, he’s not a Labour peer, or a Labour Party member. Boris Johnson put him in the House of Lords.
I thought Austin had cleared off for good.
Why would he do that? Austin was committed to damaging Labour's chances before the last general election, publicly attacking the Labour Leader, heckling him from the floor of the House of Commons, and urging people to vote for Boris Johnson and the Tories, there is no reason why he shouldn't carry on doing the Tory Party's work.
Ian Austin writes comment pieces for the Sun, the Daily Telegraph, and the Daily Mail, all three of those Labour Party-hating newspapers are urging Starmer to get even tougher on the left of the Labour Party, and carry out even more expulsions, why would you expect Austin to argue any different?
Although the man who urged voters to vote Tory last election laughably calls himself an "independent" he should be viewed in the same light as any other right-wing Tory.
Back in the days when the UK was still in the EU, and he was still masquerading as a Labour politician, Austin was attacking a Tory government from the floor of the House of Commons for letting too many foreigners into the UK. It took a Tory MP more on the left of the party and Johnson supporter to point out the need to allow immigrants into the UK :
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/home-secretary-told-act-now-12279346
Bearing in mind that Austin had only 6 months earlier backed and voted for the UK to remain in the EU, and therefore freedom of movement, you have to assume that his problem was that he didn't like the Tories letting in foreigers from the wrong part of the world, ie, not Europe.
Ian Austin is a right-wing, self-serving, expenses-milking, racist, who supports unlimited immigration into Israel so that they can illegal take land from the Palestinian people.
The only surprising thing about Austin as far as I am concerned is that he left the Labour Party on his own accord and wasn't expelled.
And that fact is a reflection of just how inept and spinless Corbyn was. Currently left-wingers are being expelled from the Labour Party on spurious allegations such as several years previously liking a tweet from a Green or LiDem party member.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190613-mp-ian-austin-hosts-israel-army-reservists-in-parliament/
Whilst that slimey shit Streeting is coming out against the health service unions, even the FT backs them:
https://www.ft.com/content/ca81509b-e929-487f-8975-49d75dc4f78d
I used to ride with Ian Austin, utter bellend on a personal level too.
Why would he do that? Austin was committed to damaging Labour’s chances before the last general election, publicly attacking the Labour Leader
I know, first hand, got on of his despicable letters urging us not to vote Labour - but I thought his mission was complete now?
that slimey shit Streeting
A step forward from veiled "pet shop boy" references I guess.
is coming out
Oh dear
against the health service unions
Which unions? (Can't be arsed with paywalls.)
You mean the BMA in ref to service improvement?