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Abstaining says both options are crap
Abstaining says that the opposition can't make its mind up, which is exactly how it will be presented by the government.
Abstaining says that the opposition can’t make its mind up
It really doesn't. It says that they have too many reservations, which they're already clearly stated, to support the bill, but they're not prepared to vote against it as this would lead to en even less appealing and considerably more dangerous outcome.
Most of us have managed to grasp this. Which bit are you struggling with?
I'm still awaiting your suggestions as to what he should do instead which would actually achieve something
Not some meaningless, PFJ-style, totally self-defeating piece of mindless lefty 'yaa-boo' tokenism
Something concrete that will actually achieve something for the people of this country, particularly the ones the labour party is meant to represent, given that this is hugely important moment in the middle of a pandemic with many lives at stake.
I'll not hold my breath, eh?
Abstaining says that the opposition can’t make its mind up, which is exactly how it will be presented by the government.
I disagree.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
Something concrete that will actually achieve something for the people of this country, particularly the ones the labour party is meant to represent, given that this is hugely important moment in the middle of a pandemic with many lives at stake.
A show of solidarity with comrades in Venezuela. That's whats needed at this critical time.
Sack another lefty as distraction.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
If they're going to abstain on these grounds they need to present something materially different. The only parliamentary mechanism to do that is to table amendments. That's how it works. It's irrelevant whether the amendments will succeed or not, it's about showing you have other ideas and challenging the government on it's own policy. Unless of course you think the purpose of the opposition is to say 'You're wrong, but we can't be arsed to come up with an alternative because there's no point'. If I did that at work when I disagreed with my boss I'd rightly get a roasting.
It really doesn’t.
It really does. Aside from being a complete failure of imagination, it's a sell out of exactly the people Labour should be representing. I guess that's why you support it.
Both options are crap. Why should they enable a crap option?
Either they support one of the options, or propose their own through an amendment. That's what's supposed to happen.
If they’re going to abstain on these grounds they need to present something materially different.
Like he did this morning? He's clearly pointed out what he believes needs to happen.
It’s irrelevant whether the amendments will succeed or not
Do you spend much of your time doing things that are utterly pointless, doomed to failure and probably likely to make the situation worse?
Like he did this morning? He’s clearly pointed out what he believes needs to happen.
A conviction so strongly held that he's going to invest no effort at all in trying to make it happen. If you think that anyone is going to remember what he said then you're deluded: all that will be reported is that the government won and Labour couldn't make its mind up.
Do you spend much of your time doing things that are utterly pointless, doomed to failure and probably likely to make the situation worse?
That's exactly what Starmer is doing: by abstaining he is guaranteeing that the vote will pass.
That’s exactly what Starmer is doing: by abstaining he is guaranteeing that the vote will pass.
*Sigh*
Yet again... there are no good options here. Only two available outcomes.
1. Boris gets his bill through
2. Boris's bill fails to pass and the Tory Right get to dump any restrictions and open up the economy, tell everyone to get back to work and allow herd immunity to run its course.
Thats your lot. Pick one. No amount of posturing will change those choices.
Binners aside from any considerations about what is effective or not, do you not understand that as far as the voting public is concerned, abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something. They look to their political representatives to take action, to put in the work required, to do everything in their power to make the lives of their constituents better. They don't expect them to declare that they don't have a position on something, and that's exactly what abstaining does in the minds of the voters.
Boris has spent the last few months portraying Starmer as a flip-flopping ditherer. This latest action plays straight into that.
abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something.
Only if you're an idiot.
I just just don't get the need for constant grandstanding. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Jezza proved that with his weekly spittle-flecked ten second rants for Youtube at PMQs. The sixth formers lapped it up. Everyone else just thought it made him look mental.
This is the same. You could indulge in some utterly pointless posturing that will achieve the square root of **** all, or you can just acknowledge the gravity of the situation and get on with the least worst option that will inflict the least damage on the country
I am the voting public and to me abstaining says both options are crap and we will not support either.
Sorry @dazh I disagree. Abstaining can also show that you don't agree with the gov and are also aware that a no vote would be detrimental. Conservative MP's, in fact all MPs are quite well known for doing this.....
The voting public who think otherwise are the ones that generally don't pay attention to politics and wouldn't care otherwise if their MP abstains or votes one way or the other.
My conservative MP abstained on the whole school meals thing, after spending a summer promoting children's charities and being very vocal about the while thing. It doesn't mean that she didn't have an opinion.
In fact, I doubt that most of the country GAS either way what Labour do! A GE is 4 years away and most people probably pay next to no attention as to what is going on!
This ^^
abstaining is seen as doing nothing and not having an opinion on something.
Only if you’re an idiot.
The problem is, elections are decided by idiots. Though I agree abstaining is the lesser of the evils here.
I know Labour can't control the media and how their actions can be manipulated, but they do seem to be leaving themselves wide open here. An announcement this morning? WhyTF was he not all over the weekends press and TV with his alternative? Deciding policy by weekend press leaks is all the rage this year you know.
If you think that anyone is going to remember what he said t
I have a vague recollection of the two-week 'firebreak' proposal round half term to try to get ahead of the wave that's got us locked down atm. If voting on a doomed amendment helps with media cut-through then great do it, if not, what's the point? The story today is about Tory rebels and probably not the best time for a 'what would labour do differently' tale. Also, lives. It's not (just) a game.
Yor you can get on with doing the least worst option
Or doing nothing, for that is the centrist mantra. It's all too difficult, too risky, too expensive, too different. Lets just keep on going, even though we know we're heading over the cliff. That seems like an interesting way of inspiring people to support you, and it flies in the face of recent history.
Or do nothing? Bit like JC during the Brexit debate......
He was very quick to "follow the science" and call for an early two week firebreak after the sage committee recommended it on 21 September. He looked positive, committed, knew what needed doing.
Since then - apart from some barely reported barbs in PMQs asking why Boris didn't follow the science - he's become background noise again.
The story today is about Tory rebels
My concern is that the story today is about Tory rebels standing up for our rights to go about freely*rather than as a threat to Boris,
*and to die of Covid in a months time, though they are glossing over that too.
In 12 to 18 months COVID-19 will hopefully no longer be an issue (if the vaccines work). Starmer therefore just needs to remain as neutral as possible on an issue that simply won't be an issue at the next election.
As has already been mentioned, any position he takes will have no impact whatsoever on Government decisions/direction and he just risks leaving hostages to fortune. To stand any chance of winning under the current faux democracy we have requires Starmer to play the game, not simply repeat the mistakes of his predecessor.
an issue that simply won’t be an issue at the next election.
???
Of course it will be an issue. Boris will be campaigning off the back of it being beaten, which he will obviously take credit for, and the resultant economic recovery. He'll also say Starmer stood on the sidelines and sniped and complained whilst not proposing any solutions of his own, and people will believe him. Covid is not going to be something the tories want to avoid, it'll be their primary campaign subject. You could write the slogans now.
Of course it will be an issue.
I don't think it will still be an issue, if the vaccines work. Boris will be gone anyway, and the death toll, corruption and economic incompetence will leave them too vulnerable.
Labour may want to campaign on those issue, the Tories will be hoping to have 3-4 years of clear water behind them on it.
and the death toll, corruption and economic incompetence will leave them too vulnerable.
All of which will be explained away as unavoidable and/or borne of necessity in unprecedented times. I think you massively underestimate their ability to fool the public. The tory press will hail Boris as the Churchillian wartime leader who bravely steered his country through the minefield of the pandemic whilst labour did everything they could to obstruct him. Why would they do anything different?
In 4 years time unemployment, low wages and falling living standards are likely to be the main issues concerning most voters. People have short memories and COVID-19 will (hopefully) be a distant memory.
It doesn’t mean that she didn’t have an opinion.
Its a perfect example of how abstaining is used though. So allegedly gave a toss about school meals but didnt vote in order not to go against the party.
Assuming they werent paired with another MP who couldnt attend.
I just just don’t get the need for constant grandstanding. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Jezza proved that with his weekly spittle-flecked ten second rants for Youtube at PMQs. The sixth formers lapped it up. Everyone else just thought it made him look mental.
This is the same. You could indulge in some utterly pointless posturing that will achieve the square root of **** all, or you can just acknowledge the gravity of the situation and get on with the least worst option that will inflict the least damage on the country
Could have done with that bit of advice for Andy Burnham and his 1922 buddies.
Meanwhile, Liverpool comes out of tier 3.
I just just don’t get the need for constant grandstanding.
Stop doing it then.
Are you actually 12 years old?
Meanwhile, Liverpool comes out of tier 3.
Liverpool came out of Tier 3 because it has an ongoing mass testing programme
Nowhere else does.
You could argue that it got that testing programme because it 'bent the knee'. I'm sure that given Boris Johnsons somewhat strained personal history with the City, he derived a great deal of pleasure from watching it surrender so meekly.
I know a few scousers who get incredibly irritated when they see Matt Hancock praising the city and its cooperation
Anyway... drifting off topic...
Are you actually 12 years old?
It's that self-awareness thing again. Bravo!
You could argue that it got that testing programme because it ‘bent the knee’.
I'm a bit confused why pointless virtue-signalling opposition is fine for King in the North Andy, but not Starmer or his predecessor? From where I'm standing, Liverpool did the exact thing that you're now saying its ok for Starmer to do, but apparently that was a meek surrender while Starmer is a visionary pragmatist.
That's because your comparing apples and tugboats
Todays parliamentary vote is a completely different from the situation Manchester found itself in.
You'd be stretching things ridiculously to refer to Andy's actions at the time as 'pointless virtue-signalling'. He was representing the interests of his constituents against a Westminster Dictat that was going to be hugely damaging to them.
The most damaging option for the people Keir Starmer is meant to represent is for him to whip his MPs to vote against the government today. Given the shite or really shite options available, posturing will get nobody anywhere
So actually, their actions are motivated by the same thing, to achieve the same result.
Lapped it up like a spotty sixth former.
Are you actually 12 years old?
binners has picked a football team side and now will back it to the hilt regardless of what happens, and anyone who disagrees is a '6th former'/idiot/PFJ member (hahahahaha :|). It's really very tedious attention-seeking behaviour.
No doubt we'll get another 'hey don't make it all about me' while desperately trying to make it all about him.
I'm done with these political threads - anyone spots me posting in them please shoot me in the face.
binners has picked a
football teamside and now will back it to the hilt regardless of what happens
Ironically, one of his team - Marcus Rashford - seems to be doing a much better job of opposing the government than Captain Ditherer.
I’m done with these political threads – anyone spots me posting in them please shoot me in the face.
Yaaass!!! Get in.
Back of the net. Arise Sir Binners!!!
Bye bye looser
Go back to your six form and read some social worker books.
Thats what happens when you take on the smartest and funniest forum user on the plant
Binners is a winner. And winners back winners.
Thats why Binners will always back Special K. 500%. End of
He sees the genius
He sees how Sir Kee Kee is reclaiming our party for decent working people
How he's fighting the cancer of lefties and focusing on what matters and that's protecting us from immigrants and rape gangs, supporting our brave boys in the military and respecting our HRH etc
How he’s fighting the cancer of lefties...
You missed out the hummus eating vegans. Those of us who like plant based eastern mediterranean food are a threat to honest northern chip on the shoulder, black pudding eating society.
Lol
Corbz voted against of course, he's a very naughty boy.
Bless him. Welcomed back into his spiritual home...
Filing through the lobby with his fellow ERG members
copa is chewkw's new user name and I claim my £5.
I laughed at how Corbyn voted too!
Probably for a different reason though 'cos I'm one the 'chip-on-shoulder' northern centralists like binners... 😂
Well this is a massive surprise. No doubt Starmer will do the right thing.
Gotta love how the 'old left' hate a winner.
Much safer and easier to back an ideologically 'pure' no hoper than be forced to confront inconvenient realities.
Starmer is doing just fine. He's letting the blonde shithead dig his own hole. Damn right.
Starmer sounded terrible in clip I just heard on radio.
Much safer and easier to back an ideologically ‘pure’ no hoper than be forced to confront inconvenient realities.
Ah, the Groucho Marx approach to politics: if you don't like my principles, I have others.
Captain Ditherer can't even manage that. He should let Marcus Rashford have a go instead.
Well this is a massive surprise. No doubt Starmer will do the right thing.
Whatever Lord Sainsbury tells him, we assume.
Starmer is doing just fine. He’s letting the blonde shithead dig his own hole. Damn right.
Yep great especially compared to Corbyn who was always intent on opposing the govt. Bomb Syria? of course you can! Further austerity measures? I think we'll abstain on that!
Corbyn lost by 80 seats to an incoherent panto act who hid in a fridge to avoid scrutiny. Less than 12 months ago.
Starmer is nearly level in the polls.
People will be out abstaining for Sir at the next election. Rashford gets my vote, a red.
Yep great especially compared to Corbyn who was always intent on opposing the govt
Particularly if it was a labour one
Starmer is nearly level in the polls.
Nearly level with "an incoherent panto act"? Impressive.
As predicted, the headlines are all about the Tory rebellion... Labour's position barely mentioned, other than the quote from Boris calling it "invertebrate".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-55153886
As predicted, the headlines are all about the Tory rebellion
Of course it bloody is! WTF did you expect?
The very people who Boris courted and pandered too to (successfully) get him into power are the ones turning on him now. He's in the process of finding out that the ERG libertarian headbangers feel no more loyalty to him than they did to any of his predecessors.
You're aware of how the media works? This is called 'news'. And not very positive news for the government who are being questioned and voted against by their own backbenchers. Given recent events (thanks again Jezza!) Labour not being the story is a good thing as it doesn't detract from the present Tory infighting
keir Starmer could have turned up in a ****ing tutu and conducted his reply through the medium of circus tricks and it would barely have warranted a footnote in the press.
Labour’s position barely mentioned
Excellent. Of all the options presented to the opposition, the news being all about the Tory party infighting is about the best result there could’ve been today
Nearly level with “an incoherent panto act”? Impressive.
Not really, but it looks impressive in comparison to his predecessor.
Excellent. Of all the options presented to the opposition, the news being all about the Tory party infighting is about the best result there could’ve been today
Someone gets it.
Drip-drip. No one trusts Johnson, not even his own MPs. Drip-drip.
Nearly level with “an incoherent panto act”? Impressive.
I think you’re underestimating with at that comment just how far away the U.K. electorate is from supporting “genuine” left wing party.
Excellent. Of all the options presented to the opposition, the news being all about the Tory party infighting is about the best result there could’ve been today
I also found the focus on Tory infighting to be a win. Makes a change from the pathetic infighting in the Labour Party.
All this infighting about who said what, did or didn't vote and wait for the next election means you're being played beautifully. When people are facing a seismic downwards shift in their lives, work and wellbeing, the more politically aware should be planning to campaign and organise not flicking shit at each other and arguing over who's the best man (or woman!) in a shiny suit.
I also found the focus on Tory infighting to be a win. Makes a change from the pathetic infighting in the Labour Party.
The man on the Clapham Omnibus is not listening to R4 every morning or scouring a broad range of news sources to form an opinion based on a spectrum of slants.
All he is likely to hear is 'Tories in disarray and their leader looks like a tosser right now'.
Keep up the drip-drip.
Social media targeted lies are a different kettle of fish, though.
The story today is not “what Labour haven’t done” but “why, when you were voted in less than a year ago with a massive majority are you having to run about persuading your own MPs to vote with its own bleeding govt”
that’s the sort of headline that any opposition worth the name should be happy about...those are the cut and keep headline days.
Also, if Labour had voted with the Tory rebels and the government been defeated (as would have happened it transpires) what would the story be now? Critically, what public health message would have been sent to the country?
Alternatives being pointless doomed amendment or voting with the government, abstaining wan't wooly or indecisive, it was the best thing to do.
that’s the sort of headline that any opposition worth the name should be happy about…those are the cut and keep headline days.
This. And this
the more politically aware should be planning to campaign and organise not flicking shit
I think Starmers missed some opportunities but last night played out well for him. Excellent pieces on the BBC and the Guardian, not got round to checking the right wing headlines.
He needs to keep focusing on the government's failures in the coming weeks and months, citing the economy and the death toll, just as the government will be claiming credit for a vaccine that has **** all to do with them.
Boris will be hung out to dry by his own party if he has to concede on a Brexit deal, and by everyone else with a no deal. The Tories need to keep him there long enough to take the blame.
Someone gets it.
I don't think you do, if your comments on this page are anything to go by. Labour have made themselves an irrelevance over this issue: the Tory rebellion is damaging to Johnson but not to the party as all it does is push them towards electing a leader who would put Labour even further away from government.
Excellent. Of all the options presented to the opposition, the news being all about the Tory party infighting is about the best result there could’ve been today
Yes, what we absolutely want is no idea of what Labour would do differently.
Yes, what we absolutely want is no idea of what Labour would do differently.
it’s daft nonsense like this that make binner’s accusations of 6th form politics accurate. In an ideal world the press and public would be well informed and able to make critical judgments based on information presented to them. We don’t live in that world, our world is one where Labour are in opposition, and the Tories still have a massive majority after 10 years in power. Starmer (or any other Labour candidate you care to mention) is about as irrelevant as they can possibly be right now.
I quite like the fantasy world you inhabit, it sounds ace, meanwhile back here in reality, an opposition leader who the right wing press can’t nail on any disparaging headlines is one step closer to winning an election
I quite like the fantasy world you inhabit, it sounds ace, meanwhile back here in reality, an opposition leader who the right wing press can’t nail on any disparaging headlines is one step closer to winning an election
100%
What's Labour's position on scotch eggs?
What’s Labour’s position on scotch eggs?
It doesn't matter. Wait for Johnson and his rabble of idiots and cynical opportunists to make themselves look stupid and/or mendacious over it then sit back and enjoy the fun.
Wait for Johnson and his rabble of idiots and cynical opportunists to make themselves look stupid and/or mendacious over it then sit back and enjoy the fun.
If we're doing 'the real world' then you might want to consider the fact that the UK is to be the first country in the world to deploy a vaccine. Waiting for them to screw up and look stupid doesn't look like the best strategy from where I'm standing.
If we’re doing ‘the real world’ then you might want to consider the fact that the UK is to be the first country in the world to deploy a vaccine
Looking at the 'World Beating' success the Track and Trace system, and given that they just put Nadhim Zahawi in charge who will be straight on the phone to Serco, I'm sure we can all look forward to an absolutely textbook vaccination programme, the envy of the world
That we can roll out a vaccine for Covid and be among the first Nations to do so is a cause for celebration.
If we’re doing ‘the real world’ then you might want to consider the fact that the UK is to be the first country in the world to deploy a vaccine. Waiting for them to screw up and look stupid doesn’t look like the best strategy from where I’m standing.
They've still got to get it out to the population. There's a long way to go. I'll wager there's going to be plenty of instances of private* logistics companies with vans full of spoiled vaccines due to incompetence/cronyism/cockups - just got to make sure they are front and centre on the news agenda.
*Owned by mates of Tory ministers.
That we can roll out a vaccine for Covid and be among the first Nations to do so is a cause for celebration.
Totally agree, as will the voting public, and I'm sure Johnson and his mates in the press will take full advantage of that.
I’m sure we can all look forward to an absolutely textbook vaccination programme, the envy of the world
So your entire strategy for labour winning the next election is based on hoping the tories are as incompetent as you think they are, and then hoping that the tory press report this honestly. And you think its us lefties who are the naive 6th formers?
I’ll wager there’s going to be plenty of instances of private* logistics companies with vans full of spoiled vaccines
See above.
So your entire strategy for labour winning the next election is based on hoping the tories are as incompetent as you think they are, and then hoping that the tory press report this honestly
Erm... when did I or anyone say anything else like that? Don't be daft.
I'm saying that it's extremely early days to be saying that this is going to be hailed as some great triumph. People have high, probably unrealistic expectations.
There will be a public inquiry into the handling of the pandemic once we're through all this. How well do you think Boris and chums are going to come out of that when legal questions start being asked about PPE contracts awarded to their mates, the appalling performance of T&T etc
Theres a million and one things that can happen between now and the next election, 4 years away. Next year is likely to see the deepest recession the country has ever seen, with mass unemployment and millions being forced into poverty. And thats just for starters. How rosy do you think Brexit is going to be looking in 12 months time?
This is a marathon, not a sprint
That we can roll out a vaccine for Covid and be among the first Nations to do so is a cause for celebration.
And a reflection that the government have had no involvement in getting it this far.