Forum menu
The very latest opinion poll puts voter support for political parties that have accepted brexit at 78%
95% for parties that have accepted free market capitalist economics too....
Filling all those jobs with foreign workers is a temporary sticking plaster
It's only temporary if you plan on kicking them out. Give them a chance and many immigrant workers will work to retirement and then retire to where they've migrated to. I have.
95% for parties that have accepted free market capitalist economics too….
Which do you think is the 5% that doesn't accept "free market capitalist economics"? I am genuinely intrigued.
I put the greens in there, but you're right, its an unassailable 100% consensus. Imagine that, i do hope nobody's going to waste all of our collective time arguing against such a mandate.
FOM and SM membership would alleviate a lot of the issues. By ruling it out he has one hand tied behind his back.
4 Billion loss to the economy compounding each year and ongoing. SMEs failing or moving to the EU. The lack of NHS staff will not be fixed by tinkering around the edges with training - 3-4 years for a nurse 6 for a doctor.
he is also making sure by doing this that labour will have no recovery in Scotland
I put the greens in there
Despite the fact that the Green Party supports EU membership?
A requirement of EU membership is "a functioning market economy as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union".
Perhaps you feel that there could be "free market capitalist economics" in 28 EU countries plus one country that is allowed to do its own thing?
The whole point of the EU is to force member states to comply with EU directives and economic policies however their electorate might have voted.
4 Billion loss to the economy compounding each year and ongoing.
TJ you keep quoting this figure and my instant reaction is a massive shrug. 4 billion is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The UK is a 6 trillion per year economy. By my reckoning that's a difference of 0.06%.
The lack of NHS staff will not be fixed by tinkering around the edges with training – 3-4 years for a nurse 6 for a doctor.
Again, 3-4 years is nothing. The sooner we get started the better. If we don't tackle this problem of training and salaries, and the wider problem of investment in infrastructure and services to support a growing population then the end result will be further decline and decay. Spending the next 10 years arguing about EU membership is a waste of time when there is much bigger stuff to be doing.
So your poll gives us a 100% vindication of market economics inside or indeed outside of the EU.
J you keep quoting this figure and my instant reaction is a massive shrug.
It compounds year on year which means we will continually fall behind and the gulf between what we could have been and what we are continues to get bigger and bigger.
Again, 3-4 years is nothing.
It is to the NHS.
Spending the next 10 years arguing about EU membership
No argument to be had. No time to waste. Just get on with closer links. Even stating he would go for closer links would be an immediate boost to the economy and to his polling. The argument is not going to go away and he is not putting it to bed he is just making it worse
its an utter disaster and its crippling the UK and Starmer is doubling down on the lie of "make brexit work"
Still - you can go along with it and find a reunited ireland, an independent Scotland and live in your diminished singapore on thames sweatshop and tax haven fighting for scraps.
So your poll gives us a 100% vindication of market economics inside or indeed outside of the EU.
Not at all. Where is the 100% vindication of market economics?
Unless you have a different definition of "vindication" ?
Are you not aware that market economics is more or less in a constant state of crises?
The key point is there is no "make brexit work" and all that stuff you want to do can be done as well as closer links to the EU
TJ you keep quoting this figure and my instant reaction is a massive shrug
I don't know the veracity of the exact figure but it's compounding. You know how your pension works? Like that.
he is also making sure by doing this that labour will have no recovery in Scotland
You keep telling us Scotland never gets the government it votes for so I'm wondering what difference it makes?
Also, there's a thread about Scotland and independence. 👍
The "vindication" is in the same barrel of fabricated nonsensical tripe as your "78% of votes for parties that have accepted brexit" codswallop
The key point is there is no “make brexit work”
When I see that these days I just interpret it as 'work with what we have in front of us, not what we wish we had on front of us' perhaps it's wishful thinking?🤔
The point about Scotland is by taking this Stance Starmer is making his appeal to a very small section of the English electorate and is making sure there is no recovery for labour in Scotland and will lose him votes in other remain areas
Edit - what he is saying to Scotland is " you and your views do not matter and policies harmful to scotland are going to continue".
it makes labour and tories two cheeks of the same arse and easily labelled as such
is in the same barrel of fabricated nonsensical tripe as your “78% of votes for parties that have accepted brexit” codswallop
There is nothing "fabricated" by me, I provided links to respected pollsters which shows that the combined support for pro-brexit parties is currently about 80%, to highlight that voting LibDem is unlikely to reverse the decision to leave the EU.
If you think it is "fabricated nonsensical tripe" then I suggest that you direct your obvious anger at the pollsters not me.
for pro-brexit parties is currently about 80%
Not in Scotland. In Scotland its under 40%
If there's a dominant force in EU politics it's social democracy. Free market economics tempered by a welfare state. Caring capitalism is another way of looking at it. If you look at the directives many of them are social state and even plain socialist. They enforce state intervention to help the needy and limit the excesses of capitalism. And even more so since the right-wing UK took a leap into the North Sea, which is great for those of us remaining in Europe.
Edit to rply to:
Spending the next 10 years arguing about EU membership is a waste of time when there is much bigger stuff to be doing.
A Swiss type deal would be th esingle biggest thing a government could do to boost the British economy. People have forgotten just what a boost joining gave back in the seventies; inward investment boomed.
I don’t know the veracity of the exact figure but it’s compounding.
How does an absolute amount of 4 billion compound? Got any links? The EU economy grows (or shrinks) broadly in line with the UK economy. There will be differences - 4 billion in this case - but there's nothing that guarantees that those differences are sustained or that they won't be replaced by something else. Right now we've lost 4 billion in trade with the EU. That's not a lot compared to the rest of the economy. Next year that might be a bit more or a bit less, but still a tiny share of the overall economy. Does it make more sense to worry about the other 99.94% of the economy or obsess about that 4 billion? Like I said, there are much more important things to worry about.
Not in Scotland. In Scotland its under 40%
Okay it's not in Scotland. Keir Starmer is the leader of a UK-wide party, not a Scottish party. This is the Starmer thread.
Just get on with closer links.
Agreed.
And Labour have a handful of positive policies in this area... on food, farming and science etc... whereas as the Conservatives are hell bent on accelerating divergence and distancing the UK from the EU and the other European states not in the EU.
But "honouring Brexit" is a message needed from Labour, sadly. If the Tories are given the chance to make the next election about Labour reversing Brexit, they can win. It is probably their best possible route to clinging onto power. Maybe their only one. It's probably the last general election that the Tories (and Farage) can play that card... it will lose its potency over the decade ahead... we're not there yet in key seats.
Yes Ernie - and his policy is aimed at a small part of England not even all of England and certainly not the whole of the UK
Are you happy for labour to become an england only party? thats where this is heading.
his policy is aimed at a small part of England
Yes, it is.
Isn't FPTP great.
Caring capitalism is another way of looking at it.
That's an extremely generous interpretation. Especially if you live in Greece. The 'socialist' stuff that European countries do is largely down to national policy (the French are a good example). The EU does everything it can to drag member countries away from their social democratic instincts. The EU is not a social democrtic project.
I think 4 bilion is an underestimate of the loss to the UK economy. Exports to EU are about 250 billion and imports about 300 billion. Given the announced reductions in trade in percentage terms announed and the knock on effect of the loss of that trade we're looking at a loss of several whole percentage points of GDP since Brexit and whole percentage points of GDP growth below what it would have been for as long as the current trade barriers remain in place.
Are you happy for labour to become an england only party? thats where this is heading.
I was merely suggesting that voting LibDem doesn't appear to be the best strategy to rejoining the EU. They are consistently polling less than they did in the last general election when they told voters 'no need for a second referendum, just vote LibDem to rejoin the EU'.
But in answer to your question I am happy for Labour to be an England, and Wales, party, presumably as much as you are. You support Scottish independence I believe and I'm quite relaxed about it.
The EU does everything it can to drag member countries away from their social democratic instincts.
Examples please, Dazh.
The EU has fined big tech significant sums over anti-trust.
Europe promostes improved living conditions, improved employment conditions, social protection bla bla bla
Since Britian left the minimum wage directive has passed. 🙂
Can’t be that far from declaring it an unelected dictatorship now…
I think 4 bilion is an underestimate of the loss to the UK economy. Exports to EU are about 250 billion and imports about 300 billion. Given the announced reductions in trade in percentage terms announed and the knock on effect of the loss of that trade we’re looking at a loss of several whole percentage points of GDP since Brexit and whole percentage points of GDP growth below what it would have been for as long as the current trade barriers remain in place.
I'm not going to pretend that exports don't matter in many ways but they are a swap (export) of real resources for something we have plenty of - £££.
The government can always choose to fill the coffers. Resources however are finite.
Starmer does seem to be drifting to the right with every policy announcement he makes - I'm not sure if that's because it was his politics all along (and he feels more emboldened to make them public these days) or if he's willing to sacrifice his principles for political ambition on seeing Labour's chances at the next GE improving significantly over recent months.
The worry for is it causes the Labour party to fracture before the next GE whilst we're all sitting around assuming it's the Tories that implode
I repeat, which poll, squirrelking? You do tend to dispute everything I say (when you’re not distorting what I said) and now it appears you claim everything you dispute has been posted by me.
A simple mistake, nothing more.
The only poll that I can see posted recently was posted by me. It is a YouGov poll and no it doesn’t include the SNP share of the vote.
Point being when you have a two party system it's not much of a choice. If nobody with any chance offers it then it proves nothing really.
There are much more important issues to be dealing with right now, like how we’re going to unclog our hospitals by sorting out the care sector. Training the new generation of carers, nurses and doctors will be central to that and labour at least seem to understand that
I wonder how we could address that in the short term, hmm...
It’s only temporary if you plan on kicking them out. Give them a chance and many immigrant workers will work to retirement and then retire to where they’ve migrated to. I have.
I think he meant in the sense that we don't have people trained and ready to go (unless they are attracted back to the role) so ready to go labour is a quick fix until people come through the training system. I don't see any suggestion that he wants to kick them out.
Again, 3-4 years is nothing.
Glad you think so, we're already short staffed, what do you think is going to happen between now and then with people retiring or just jumping ship?
Also, there’s a thread about Scotland and independence. 👍
Okay it’s not in Scotland. Keir Starmer is the leader of a UK-wide party, not a Scottish party. This is the Starmer thread.
What's that got to do with anything? If Labour changed their stance they might have half a chance of getting some seats back up here, there are plenty of folk fed up with the SNP and not necessarily nationalists.
But in answer to your question I am happy for Labour to be an England, and Wales, party, presumably as much as you are. You support Scottish independence I believe and I’m quite relaxed about it.
So you're happy never to see them in power again?
Strange stance but after all you and your cronies were the unlikely cheerleaders of our last PM.
I’m not sure if that’s because it was his politics all along
He's a weather vane, and an archetypal career politician who will say - or refuse to say - whatever he thinks will win him power. On FoM though I'm fairly certain he actually believes in what he's saying (see my previous comments on this). Some will say he's a racist, others that he's simply indulging in a bit of good old protectionism. He wouldn't be the first, remember Brown with his 'British jobs for British people'?
Given his poll lead Starmer's only job now is to not give the tories the opportunity of moving the focus onto dog-whistle issues, which is why he's doubling down on immigration and staying out of the CU and SM. Whether you like it or not it's the correct electoral strategy.
A pledge to renationalise the railways, a democratically elected second chamber, a nationalised energy company, removing the charitable status of private schools, etc, is not a drift to the right.
Starmer might have dramatically lurched to the right after his 10 socialist pledges, but there is little evidence that he has been drifting to the right since the huge change of fortune in the polls following the collapse of Tory support.
IMO Starmer is not right-wing, nor is he left-wing.
So you’re happy never to see them in power again?
Strange stance but after all you and your cronies were the unlikely cheerleaders of our last PM.
I am fairly sure that Labour will be in power again - probably in two years time.
I have no idea who my "cronies" are or why me and my cronies were Liz Truss cheerleaders. But perhaps I shouldn't look for too much logic in your comments squirrel as you appear to have been more than a little confused about who said what and why.
I have no idea who my “cronies” are or why me and my cronies were Liz Truss cheerleaders.
I think he means your cheerleading of Boris Johnson. We've already forgotten LIz. 😉
In terms of righ or left we have the problem of Labour policy being thought up by the leftward leaning (and rightly so) but a natural authoritarian Tory, Starmer, who can't resist pendering to the super rich backing away form that policy as soon as it is published.
I think he means your cheerleading of Boris Johnson. We’ve already forgotten LIz. 😉
You mean my belief that Liz Truss would make a worse PM than Boris Johnson, is that "cheerleading"?
I quite strongly believe that Suella Braverman would make a worse PM than Rishi Sunak, am I a cheerleader for Sunak now?
And who are my cronies? I didn't know I had any.
And who are my cronies?
Can't help you there, Ernie, you're unique. 🙂 Edit, I did think about that Mick bloke you keep referencing but he's no fan of Johnson.
However, I'm not the only one who noticed how enthusiastic you were about Johnson, after all he did get Brexit done. 🙁
I think the 4 billion I said should have been 4%. Stupid of me.
dazh
so in your enthusiasm for making brexit work whats your solution to NI issues?
Whether you like it or not it’s the correct electoral strategy.
for parts of England. In the rest of england and in Scotland its 100% wrong. IMo it will lose more votes than it gains.
Mick bloke you keep referencing
Gosh this is confusing, Mick Lynch?
Ah I see, the suggestion is that anyone on the left who doesn't support the EU must by definition be a Johnson supporter, of course, it's all starting to make sense now! .....Yeah Ernie Lynch and his crony Mick Lynch!
No Mick Lynch doesn't support Johnson anymore than I do. But I am sure that he would be as confused as I am as to why replacing Johnson with Sunak represents a setback for Leave supporters.
Any idea why squirrel seems to think that Labour might never be in power again btw?
It seems particularly weird as all the polls of the last couple of months have suggested that approximately half the electorate would vote Labour if there was a election now.
so in your enthusiasm for making brexit work whats your solution to NI issues?
Irish reunification.
PS I'm not enthusiastic about 'making brexit work', I just recognise that it's the only option. We're not rejoining the EU, SM, or CU any time soon. We can either accept that and get on with whatever we do instead, or spend the next 10 years whining about it instead of tackling other more important problems.
IMo it will lose more votes than it gains.
The polls don't appear to agree.
I think it is now perfectly clear what Ernies views are on Brexit and the EU
Rather than state that
"the EU is a voluntary UNION of sovereign states whose overarching economic policy is decided upon by considered compromise in agreement with all members and ratified by a parliament of democratically elected MEPs from each state."
he waves his fist at the sky and screams
The whole point of the EU is to force member states to comply with EU directives and economic policies however their electorate might have voted"
😉
Del
Full Member
The key point is there is no “make brexit work”When I see that these days I just interpret it as ‘work with what we have in front of us, not what we wish we had on front of us’ perhaps it’s wishful thinking?🤔
<don't get involved in politics threads; don't get involved in politics threads; don't...>
It's not wishful thinking - it's pragmatic reality. I was talking to a former cabinet minister last week (One of Theresa's) - their view was that in Parliament as well as everywhere else, there's a bell curve of attitudes towards Brexit. Most are in the middle, leaning Remain.
Rejoining the single market, FoM and any other EU institutions cannot be done from a position of weakness. And we're in a position of weakness. To growth strength their view was that the first thing we need to fix is the labour market - we've lost people from the labour market because of Brexit, Covid, mental health problems, NHS wait lists and early retirement. A healthier labour market means more productivity and more tax revenue.
The bind that both the government and Starmer find themselves in is that the government is having to move towards higher tax, maintained investment and <some potential future spending cuts> that means spending is higher now. It's moving towards a continental model, typically a more Labour position.
So Keir's job is to demonstrate more competence than the government with holding positions, win the next election and then move back towards sensible Labour policies. Freedom of Movement is hard though - the Unions have always resisted that as a threat to the membership. It'll be interesting to see where a balance is found on that one.
I think it is now perfectly clear what Ernies views are on Brexit and the EU
No they're not, I never discuss them on stw. I simply state that I am strongly opposed to the EU. I very rarely make any attempt to explain why.
EU membership is a non-issue. The UK is out of the EU and won't be joining again anytime soon. Something which me, Keir Starmer, and millions of others, including Mick Lynch, agree on.