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Did you see the thing about 88% of people who voted Labour in 2019 thinking leave was the wrong decision, Dazh?
If Starmer were pro-Swiss deal that would be enough for some people to vote for him, some of us have stated as much. I won't vote Labour without that pledge.
Elections are all about the swing voters and new voters. Some people will never change the party they vote for, core voters if you like. Then there are those who decide the elections, the people who for whatever reason will happily change for percieved personal gain or even the greater good, or even just to stick it to the man. The Labour voter is generally young, economically active and pro Europe.
The Labour leader is a besuited privileged prick (Knight Commander of the order of the Bath), who happily accepted a peerage but doesn't like being called "Sir" (I know a lot of teachers who would sympathise but don't have a choice). He likes to be remembered for Amnesty or Mclibel but made a string of authoritarian decisions in favour of bad cops. And of course is too rich personally to be connectd to his electorate and accepts donations from the pro-Israel something and the car lobby amongst others. The more I've read about him the more I've come to detest him in a way I haven't detested a politician since Blair. Jeez, Marine Le Pen is little miss goody two shoes compared to Starmer.
He’s a weather vane, and an archetypal career politician
Eh? He had a highly successful career in public law before going into politics pretty late in the day. He only entered the commons in 2015, not a time when opportunists would have seen Labour as the best ticket for advancing some sort of personal agenda, whatever you think that would be.
, who happily accepted a peerage
He's not a peer. Do you know what a peerage is?
The UK is out of the EU and won’t be joining again anytime soon.
Scotland and NI might and probably will.
Marine Le Pen is little miss goody two shoes compared to Starmer.
Ah, so now you are a cheerleader for a far-right racist party. Well I never
He had a highly successful career in public law
Yup, he was on the side of right and good on human rights issues then traded it in for a peerage and dismissed cases against bad cops when given th etop job. But it was all about politics, medling in other countrys' affairs is politics. His legal career was political and ambiguous.
traded it in for a peerage
google "peerage"
Ah, so now you are a cheerleader for a far-right racist party. Well I never
Her election debate with Macron first time around was brilliant, I was cheering her on in her drunken folly, go Marine go !!!. Best performance in favour of Macron in the whole campaign. 🙂 Marine is a pussy, the people backing her a mix of sharks, tigers, wolves... . I like Marine in the way Tories loved Corbyn and Kinnock.
"knighthood" then, is that better? What ever you are when you become a "Sir" "Knight" of this or that.
Jeez, Marine Le Pen is little miss goody two shoes compared to Starmer.
Now you're just being ridiculous. I don't think anyone who's read anything I've said about him would think I'm a Starmer fan, but trying to compare him with a far right racist xenophobe is clearly nonsense. Just like comparing Corbyn with far right anti-semites. Is this where the remain/rejoin argument is now? Accusing anyone who doesn't conform to the uncritically pro-EU viewpoint of being a racist? It's pathetic quite frankly.
A peerage puts you in the house of lords, knighthoods are ten a penny but no mean achievement for a working class lad and hard to turn down (though I've more respect for those who do turn them down - bowie compared to jagger say)
not a time when opportunists would have seen Labour as the best ticket for advancing some sort of personal agenda,
The Labour Party is by far the best political party for a barrister who wishes to enter politics and has their eye on high office, as many before Starmer have proved.
The Tory Party is simply too clogged with public school professionals to make a rapid ascent as likely.
Believe me being a QC when in a selection process when the other contenders might be a teacher or a postman gives someone a huge advantage in today's Labour Party.
The Tory Party is simply too clogged with public school professionals
Labour too.
Maybe I should be comparing with Zemmour, though I don't know if he has accepted a donation from Israel, I doubt it, you just don't do you.
It's great using the words "Marine Le Pen" on this forum, it creates instant reation, however when I read though her 20 points there an equivalent UK voice for all of them and many on the left of the house. Marine gave up on her Frexit promise, Starmer is forging ahead with a Brexit he was against, which is worse? Objectively.
Marine gave up on her Frexit promise, Starmer is forging ahead with a Brexit he was against, which is worse?
I am surprised that you are happy to draw attention to the fact that a racist right-wing anti-refugee political party now fully accepts EU membership.
Of course there is nothing particularly surprising that the French National Rally Party should support membership of an organisation which is exclusively for European countries and has at its very heart racist immigration policies which denies equal rights to people from outside Europe.
Plenty of other racist parties in Europe support EU membership including the French National Rally's partners in the European Parliament grouping "Identity and Democracy" the neo-nazi parties of Austria and Germany - the Freedom Party and Alternative for Germany Party.
Plus of course the ruling ultra-conservative racist parties of Hungary and Poland.
A united Europe in face of the threat to Christian cultural values from Africa and Asia is a long held post WW2 fascist dream. The leader of the British Union of Fascists founded the "Union Movement" which called for integration of Europe into a single political entity. He also helped found the National Party of Europe which was committed to Pan-European nationalism.
The only fascist party who any sort of electoral success at that time were MSI in Italy. Today the fascist descendants of MSI, Brothers of Italy, are in government in Italy. I don't believe that Italy's current fascist Prime Minister has any intention in taking Italy out of the EU.
So nothing particularly shocking that a racist such as Marine Le Pen should appear more committed to the EU than Keir Starmer.
denies equal rights to people from outside Europe
How so?
We should probably go over this for the hundredth time in the Brexit thread though.
As you're delighting in gratuitous throwing shit around: there's a certain irony in that the Europe hating anti-racist got his Brexit wishes fulfilled thanks to mainly racist voters. 🙂
I reckon Michel Rocard had it about right and haven't felt the need to change my views on immigration into Europe since.
As you’re delighting in gratuitous throwing shit around
It is you mate that is celebrating the fact that the leader of a racist anti-immigration/refugee far-right party is now a supporter of the the EU, which according you means that the leader of the Labour Party is "worse".
I call that throwing shit around.
And the "Europe hating" allegation is about as valid as the hating Britian or hating America allegations so often levelled at anti-racists.
I judge people as individuals, not by where they come from. Polish or Nigerian makes no difference to me - the fact that one might come from Europe and the other from Africa is irrelevant.
I think the past few pages are an indication of why brexit needs to be put behind us for now. It will cripple politics in the UK for the next decade and maybe more, we won't be any closer to re-joining, and nothing else will be done either.
Hopefully in time with a government that doesn't take any excuse to be antagonistic with the EU we can rebuild bridges and forge a closer alliance. But there are other things that need to be done as well, and nothing will get done if revisiting brexit is still the biggest game in town.
Thought I'd dip back in. Three mins was all I required to remember why I don't read certain peoples posts.
Did we ever get the functionality to hide any posts by individuals?
pandhandj
Free Member
Thought I’d dip back in. Three mins was all I required to remember why I don’t read certain peoples posts.Did we ever get the functionality to hide any posts by individuals?
I made the same mistake. Won't bother again.
Polish or Nigerian makes no difference to me – the fact that one might come from Europe and the other from Africa is irrelevant.
Very noble of you, easy sitting where you are where tiny number of immigrants/refugees get across the Channel. You're slagging off Italian politics when the Italians have been been dealing with virtually all the cross-Med migrants rescued. You're slagging of German politics when Germany has successfully dealt with what, around half a million Syrian refugees and over a million total over the last five years. Poland has taken I have no idea how many Ukranians.
I make a distinction because Poland is in Shengen and the EU and Poles are welcome all over Europe if they comply with a few simple rules. However Europe has decided not to welcome all the misery in Nigeria into Europe, only a part of it, its fair share, as Michel Rocard wisely stated.
I'm aware that immigration beyond what people see as reasonable and acceptble fuels support for the far right parrties you've cited. I'd include the current UK government in your list of extreme parties wihen it comes to immigration - Priti Patel's actions, Windrush etc go beyond anything else in Europe unless you have examples.
In the case of Nigerians most applications for asylum are turned down most everywhere, however some applications are accepted:
31,185 people from Nigeria fled in 2021 and applied for asylum in other countries, according to UNHCR data. This corresponds to approximately 0.015% of all residents. The most common destination countries have been Niger, Italy and France. Overall, 81 percent of the asylum applications have been rejected. The most successful have been the refugees in Portugal and Lebanon.
Politicians have to balance immigration against fueling the far right - too lax on immigration and Italy ends up with a far right government, too tight on immigration and the Uk still gets a far right government, go figure.
https://www.worlddata.info/refugees-by-country.php
Guys if you don’t like a thread just move on. You don’t have to post to tell everyone that it’s beneath you. 😀
Don't you oppress me! 🤣🤣🤣
And apologies if I was condescending, not what I intended. I learn a lot about politics from STW and I appreciate the efforts of most, yourself included.
However, I'm not the first to mention that it can become a wee bit of an ego-fest at times. I guess I just wish people could take a step back at times.
@dazh I think a thread about the next PM is important, but the last pages are ad-hominem attacks, misinformation, squabbling and reuniting Ireland. Do we need another thread for keir?!
Very noble of you, easy sitting where you are where tiny number of immigrants/refugees get across the Channel.
Net immigration last year was 500,000.
80 Nigerians. The reply you quote was in reply to Ernie's Nigerian/polish thing. Context is everything.
I think the past few pages are an indication of why brexit needs to be put behind us for now. It will cripple politics in the UK for the next decade and maybe more
I am not sure how indicative of UK politics a thread on STW is. I reckon that for most people the passion behind the EU debate has subsided and it isn't at the forefront of every political debate.
Obviously that is not the case for everyone and to be fair Ed takes a pretty extreme position - he very much judges someone entirely on the basis of their attitude towards the EU.
So we end up with the comments like this with regards to the leader of the Labour Party because he isn't apparently pro-EU enough : "The more I’ve read about him the more I’ve come to detest him in a way I haven’t detested a politician since Blair."
In contrast the leader of a far-right racist party is seen in this sort of light : "Marine Le Pen is little miss goody two shoes compared to Starmer." Because she now embraces EU membership.
Most people however, especially now that the UK is no longer in the EU, aren't obsessed with the issue to that degree.
I voted for the Green candidate in the local elections earlier this year. It didn't occurred to me not to because of the Green Party's policy on the EU. Which btw is this:
And Ernie decides personal slagging off is now the way forward having failed on every other front. Sleep tight.
but the last pages are ad-hominem attacks, misinformation, squabbling and reuniting Ireland
Yeah, this is a pointless internet forum which people like me use to avoid work and other boring stuff. It really isn’t the Oxford debating society. It’s about the level of a drunken discussion down the pub. Maybe a bit better than that, but not much.
You can be very cutting at times dazh! 🤣🤣🤣
Ernie decides personal slagging off is now the way forward
There is no "personal slagging off" just an observation that you take an extreme position with regards to people's attitude towards the EU.
It is clearly extremely important to you and obvious that you very much judge politicians on that basis. I am surprised that you would suggest otherwise.
On the other hand claiming that I am "Europe hating" and accusing me of "gratuitous throwing shit around" could reasonably be described as personal slagging off, if that is what concerns you.
dazh
Full Member
but the last pages are ad-hominem attacks, misinformation, squabbling and reuniting IrelandYeah, this is a pointless internet forum which people like me use to avoid work and other boring stuff. It really isn’t the Oxford debating society. It’s about the level of a drunken discussion down the pub. Maybe a bit better than that, but not much.
Oh and selective quoting 😁
The reply you quote was in reply to Ernie’s Nigerian/polish thing. Context is everything.
The Nigerian community in the UK is about a quarter of the Polish one so plenty here.
I wasn't even talking about immigration. I had been accused of "Europe hating". I was simply pointing out that continents are irrelevant to me.
Net immigration last year was 500,000.
I thought over half of that is students and other countries don’t count them in their figures?
I thought over half of that is students and other countries don’t count them in their figures?
Normally it shouldn't be too significant because they leave so the impact on net immmigration isn't that great, I think there is a spike as a result of the return to normal post covid but the big drivers are Ukraine, Hong Kong and Afghanistan.
I wasn’t even talking about immigration. I had been accused of “Europe hating”. I was simply pointing out that continents are irrelevant to me.
I know, but what can you do!
I had been accused of “Europe hating”. I was simply pointing out that continents are irrelevant to me.
Probably a bit dramatic but people like Ed who are uncritically and overbearingly enthusiastic about the European 'project' remind me of old school british colonialists, banging on about Britannia exporting culture, civilisation and good government to the world. Same goes for those who believe in American hegemony and colonialism. Seems to me we could do with less of that sort of thing in the world, not more.
The irony is that with an ageing population we will always be dependent on immigrants
Automation will help in some ways but the fantasy that restricting immigration will force businesses into this and help raise productivity is for the fairies
we've choked off supply of workers from EU so we will have to replace them from elsewhere, we need more workers, those young healthy immigrants will keep coming, honesty from our MPs about this wouldnt go amiss
its a headache for the racist OAPs and the politicans that depend on their votes
Yeah, this is a pointless internet forum which people like me use to avoid work and other boring stuff. It really isn’t the Oxford debating society.
TBF given the quality of some of the people who have been senior in that society and their performance in PMQs we could probably be able to claim higher standards.
Automation will help in some ways but the fantasy that restricting immigration will force businesses into this and help raise productivity is for the fairies
What's more productive for an economy? Designing, building, installing and maintaining automated car washes, or importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?
anyway Starmer chugging along
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1597286756352774147
2 years is an awful long time to be 'PM in waiting' though
What’s more productive for an economy?
Well... point one is that the machines already exist, and are cheaper to use... but they aren't in use much because humans like dealing with humans. See also checkouts in supermarkets. A nation of old people going about their lives dealing only with machines isn't the utopia embraced by many. Point two is that paying workers, who then spend money on essentials and non-essentials, is good for the economy in a way that a machine capturing money supported by far fewer support workers is not. Multiplier effect. So, the glib answer is that having lots of young working people is better for the economy than not having them. Point three is that trying to reduce the issue of migrant workers to a job you consider non-essential shows a certain bias towards work that isn't hands on, physical and outdoors. It's a (home) office worker's view of what is and isn't worthwhile work.
2 years is an awful long time to be ‘PM in waiting’ though
Likely to be 2 very hard years for whoever is the actual PM over that time. But yes, plenty of chances for Starmer to drop the ball in the years ahead. He's doing a lot better than we thought he would though... isn't he?
What’s more productive for an economy? Designing, building, installing and maintaining automated car washes, or importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?
bit dogwhistle there!, it may not be the Oxford mass-debating society but its not the daily mail forum either 😉
UK skills shortage list is long, from social care to architects, musicians, biomedical scientists, nurses, choreographers, geoscientists, welders, software developers, bricklayers, doctors.....
the social care crisis is crippling the NHS, thanks in part to staff shortages, driven by brexit, low wages, cuts to council funding and an absence of any sort of plan from government, 1 in 10 social care places are currently unfilled, Im not sure automation will save us there
Point two is that paying workers, who then spend money on essentials and non-essentials, is good for the economy in a way that a machine capturing money supported by far fewer support workers is not. Multiplier effect.
There's also a multiplier effect in the services and infrastructure required to support a higher population. Housing, schools, local services, increased capacity in the NHS etc. To be absolutely clear I'm not anti-immigration, if it was down to me I'd have completely open borders. But we need to put the infrastructure in place to support an increasing and continually mobile population. Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand? In a word, no they don't. So who pays instead? Maybe people should just wash their own cars?
bit dogwhistle there!
Not really, just a random, but very pertinent example. Seems to me pretty obvious that it's more beneficial to an economy to automate something like car washing. All the jobs involved in doing that would provide the tax income needed to improve public services, and the immigrant labour could then be directed towards areas of the economy where they're actually needed, like care work and other sectors which can't be automated. I see little value in importing people to do menial, servile jobs.
I think some of the more passionate pro-European members of this forum need to realise that whilst membership of the EU gave undeniable benefits to the UK, the Brexit vote has been made, we are out of the EU and the whole conversation is still quite toxic amongst a large part of the voting public. If it is even mentioned in my office it causes sourness and what aboutery.
I am massively pro EU and would love for the UK to re-join BUT I do not believe the public want this to be the focus of the next election, which is exactly what it would become. There are a great deal more urgent issues that need tackling.
Even if those who voted leave are now swinging back towards remain it absolutely matters not at this point. For Starmer to explain to these people that they were wrong, that Brexit has contributed to this shit show would be counterproductive. It would be patronising and unlikely to win any votes. Remember that large numbers of those who voted leave were also Labour voters from strong Labour seats… who voted Conservative in 2019 under Johnson’s pledge to get Brexit done. The details didn’t matter to a lot of people, they wanted out because they wanted out; they’ve had decades of the tabloid press drip feeding EU paranoia; even low key Bollox such as “straight banana” fed the rhetoric that led to Brexit. That cannot be undone overnight or even over the next couple of years.
Starmer needs to win back both his traditional Labour voter but also a large chunk of other voters. Those who accuse him of playing the political game by trying to appeal to everyone… well, yes..! That’s what he HAS to do, otherwise it’s gonna be another 4 years of this bunch. Shouting ”I told you so” and “you were all wrong” would not only not get those votes back (nobody likes to be told they’re wrong even if it’s plain they were), he would likely lose those voters who would vote Labour; it would be deeply unattractive to have potential leader crowing about he was right and you were wrong.
Housing, schools, local services, increased capacity in the NHS etc.
All need workers.
Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand?
So, we're blaming minimum wage earners for not paying enough tax now are we? We've gone full Daily Mail below the article comments section now... I'll come back when we're talking about Kier Starmer again.
Spot on Mildred.