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So, no rethink? No change from a losing, pre-pandemic, pre-Brexit 2019 manifesto? That would be bonkers, no? [ leave it Kelvin, go and be useful somewhere else ]
He hasn’t shifted policy. He will have to.
And he's made it clear that he will, which makes Binners' assertion all the more odd.
So, no rethink? No change from a losing, pre-pandemic, pre-Brexit 2019 manifesto? That would he bonkers, no?
Absolutely: 2024 is not 2019. But as said upthread, there's a real risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
And he’s made it clear that he will, which makes Binners’ assertion all the more odd.
Tenses. Back to school for you…
there’s a real risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater
I agree.
Railways have been nationalised or at least their debts have.
Tenses. Back to school for you…
Binners claimed that Starmer would stick with Corbyn's policy agenda. Starmer is on record saying that he will ditch it. That he hasn't changed it yet is immaterial as there are no elections any time soon.
Many MPs that fit that vague and loaded description were pushed out of parliament into other roles (mayors etc)
That's an interesting spin, and mostly untrue. The likes of Burnham left because they didn't agree with Corbyn and thought it better to get out rather than stay in and snipe from the sidelines like most of their colleagues. I've a lot of respect for that even though I would have preferred him to stay and support the policy agenda. If only his right wing colleagues had done the same, labour could have gone into both the 2017 and 2019 elections with a united PLP all pulling in the same direction.
He said when he took over as leader that he’d stick with Corbyns policy agenda and since then has changed not one single aspect of that policy agenda
You were asked to cite examples of policy changes that have happened that have got you irate. All we have is the acknowledgment that the policy platform will change between 2019 and the next election. They may well, on balance, be policies that you and I prefer to 2019 (unlikely, but hey)... being angry about future unmade policy changes at this point is... well, I dunno what word to use...
labour could have gone into both the 2017 and 2019 elections with a united PLP all pulling in the same direction
But they didn't... so... seek revenge and keep circling around the past leader and his political ineptitude over the EHRC report... or work to create a policy platform to unite behind... pick now.
he contends, arguing that the pandemic means that both Labour and the Tories “are going to have to fundamentally rethink what they want to offer the electorate in 2024”.
Thats just a truism, surely?
I don't know if you noticed, but we're about to crash out of the EU, which on top of Covid is going to plunge the country into a recession that is going to make the 1980's look like a picnic.
This country is going to look like a very different place this time next year with mass unemployment and a trashed economy. To be referencing 2019 will be like referencing the 1950's it'll be so irrelevent.
I'd imagine (and certainly hope) that there will be clear water between Labour and the Tory policies at that point. Hyper-austerity from the Tory's, as that is all they know, and hopefully a more Keynesian programme of infrastructure investment from labour. Which even as I type it sounds very Corbynite
So I just don't understand why you're having a thromby and getting your petticoats all ruffled
You were asked to cite examples of policy changes that have happened that have got you irate.
The problem there, if you meant to quote me and not Binners, is that I'm not irate, angry, irked or disgruntled. Just unsure why an absence of new policy to date is presented as evidence of anything at all.
I quoted binners… because you were trying to put words in his mouth that he did not use.
EDIT: this is going nowhere... Starmer has deserted us on policy by not changing policy.... what's the point.
Thats just a truism, surely?
I don’t know if you noticed, but we’re about to crash out of the EU, which on top of Covid is going to plunge the country into a recession that is going to make the 1980’s look like a picnic.
This country is going to look like a very different place this time next year. I’d imagine that there will be clear water between Labour and the Tory policies at that point. Hyper-austerity from the Tory’s and a more Keynesian programme of investment from labour
You'll note that at no point have I argued that Starmer should stick with the 2019 platform, regardless of circumstances. What should be in the new platform is the matter of debate here, and Starmer's preferences are at the moment largely unknown.
I quoted binners… because you were trying to put words in his mouth that he did not use.
I don't believe I did: stop presenting opinion as fact.
So.. what has Starmer done wrong up to now (rather than possibly in the future)...? Extra points for not mentioning he who we're trying not to mention...
And whilst we've been talking Starmer enacts his latest blairite ruse to acquire dictatorial control of the party. Unity my arse!
https://twitter.com/lara_eleanor/status/1331183844419055621?s=20
https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1331191175970238465?s=20
So.. what has Starmer done wrong…? Extra points for not mentioning he who we’re trying not to mention…
I see it's groundhog day: scroll back to the first couple of pages and I was arguing that we would need to have some idea of Starmer's vision in order to pass judgement. That's still the case.
Today the entire left walked out of Labour’s NEC
What are the "entire Left" walking away from? Utterly depressing for those of us that want a proper left leaning government in our lifetime.
censored legitimate debate inside our Party
What has been censored?
I was arguing that we would need to have some idea of Starmer’s vision in order to pass judgement
I agree.
So what has Starmer done wrong up to now?
And then there's this, which neatly sums up the situation. If Starmer's aim was to replace Blair as the most unpopular leader among the membership then he seems to be succeeding. At least blair waited til he was PM before burning his bridges.
https://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1331192809756438529?s=20
It appears that 'The left' just staged a 'walk out' of a zoom call
Brilliant!! 😀
A Zoom walkout... bet that was an impressive statement
Keir Starmer would suspend Corbyn
Ah, so that is what Starmer has done wrong. I think I've got it now.
drive every left winger out of shadow cabinet
Oh, and Long-Bailey. I'd forgotten about that.
Have you put yourself on mute?
I think he must have lost his connection....
Hang on a minute... I've just read on Twitter that he's apparently staged a walk out....
So what has Starmer done wrong up to now?
In terms of policy and vision he's done nothing right or wrong, because he's done nothing.
Managerially, he has mishandled the fallout from the ECHR report and is making a transparent power grab for the party machinery. From the posts above, the usual suspects here are content, but I'm pretty sure they were squealing when the boot was on the other foot.
I said that I thought he got it wrong as regards withdrawing the whip... but he had no good choices...
So, Corbyn screws up the Labour response to the ECHR... and then whichever of the bad options (support Corbyn, or suspend the whip) that leaves Starmer with results in the big pile of shit for him (and the party) to wade through... but the fact he can't walk on that shit... is his fault?
So... what did Starmer get wrong? He had Corbyn's inability to accept a report with legal findings to deal with. Is that it? If Corbyn had handled the publishing of the report as was required for the party, then at this point Starmer would have done no wrong? Do I have that right?
So… what did Starmer get wrong? He had Corbyn to deal with. Is that it?
I've answered your question so why are you repeating it?
So it's not about any policy changes, it's all about his handling as regards Corbyn, yes? To be clear?
I think the problem is the implication that Jeremy is fallible and therefore mortal.
So that can’t possibly be right. In fact, technically it’s heresy 😉
it’s all about his handling as regards Corbyn
No it's about him breaking the primary promise of his leadership bid to bring together both sides of the party. He's manifestly failed to do that, his actions today in changing the NEC rules being the latest example. It's not even really a left v right problem, it's a membership vs PLP problem. You could take away the left/right political differences and you would still have a divided party.
He's even attempted to ban members from talking about Corbyn's suspension, which is ironic as it's usually the left who are accused of acting like 20th century communist dictators.
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1331201975350923264?s=20
He’s manifestly failed to do that
I agree.
It’s not even really a left v right problem
I agree.
Is Mike Gapes seriously having a go at people walking out of something? 🙂
I can't help feeling nostalgic at the moment: it's like the good old days of Degsy Hatton and Militant Tendency all over again...
So glad I live in Scotland, where Labour's slide into irrelevance has at least greased the wheels of independence.
He’s even attempted to ban members from talking about Corbyn’s suspension
Please, tell us more…
The new leader of Labour's NEC, personally approved by Starmer..
https://twitter.com/tristandross/status/1331208180077039616?s=20
binners now linking to Tory 'comedian's' Twitter accounts to prove how bad being left-wing is. 🤔
I wonder what Jim Davidson thinks.
binners now linking to Tory ‘comedian’s’ Twitter accounts
The beast. He knows no bounds.
It's pretty revealing of which party he would be better aligned with. It's not exactly a devastating argument either - 'Tories think Labour are bad shocker'.
Norcott can be funny. A rarity in comedians with his political leanings. I very rarely agree with him. He sometimes makes me chuckle. That tweet made be sigh in agreement as well as laugh… at the same time… probably a first since I started following him on Twitter after his Mash Report appearances. The joke was set up for him though, wasn’t it… I fully expect similar jokes from resigned left wing comedians come the weekly satirical TV & Radio shows… it’s just too easy.
I saw him on HIGNFY once and thought - how ironic to have affirmative action for right wing comedians
He made that joke himself, on that show, IIRC.
Also… Boris Johnson.
So it’s not about any policy changes, it’s all about his handling as regards Corbyn, yes? To be clear?
Oh dear, I see we're still in groundhog day. I'm not sure how else to express my opinion on Labour policy in a way that gets through to you.
Could you express it through interpretive dance?
Try a few sentences. Bullet points if it saves you time.
Try a few sentences. Bullet points if it saves you time.
I've no intention of repeating myself in the service of your silly little game.
Any chance on the interpretive dance then?
Mime?
I only perform contemporary dance. I reckon you'd be better served by grabbing a biscuit and disappearing into a quiet room with Kelvin.
Silly little game? I want to know if you have seen actual changes to policy that you (and perhaps I, once I've seen it) object to? Or if this is all about the mess as regards the EHRC report. If Starmer has angered or disappointed many Labour members and supporters (plenty of evidence that he has) I want to know if it about substantial policy, or just about rallying around the past leader? I'm hoping you might help. Obviously you don't have to... none of this is your doing. I'm just interested.
What type of biscuit though....
Garibaldi, please.
Silly little game? I want to know if you have seen actual changes to policy that you (and perhaps I, once I’ve seen it) object to?
I have no new information since I answered this question an hour ago. Should I have an update, I'll let you know.
changing the NEC rules being the latest example.
back to how they’d always been up until 2017... I wonder who changed them to make sure the ‘right’ people ended up on the NEC? Bet you can all guess
I fully expect similar jokes from resigned left wing comedians come the weekly satirical TV & Radio shows… it’s just too easy.
In a nutshell......90% of my issue with Corbyn. He provides open goal after open goal for the Tories.
And then the usual nobheads who come out with 'sovrunty' and 'political correctness gorn maaad' can easily say 'it would be worse under Labour'. It is an open goal.
x-posted with the brexit thread. This is where weather-vane centrism gets you. One minute you're the remain poster boy with a legion of twittteratis behind you, the next you're doing the very thing everyone slagged off your predecessor for supposedly wanting to do.
Yeah but it's not about policies or principles it's about getting elected.
This is where weather-vane centrism gets you
Eh? It's where engaging with reality gets you. If there's a deal (big if) I'd personally want labour to have a clear line. What's the problem?
This is where weather-vane centrism gets you
Well we know exactly where left-wing Bennite/Corbynite 70's style, anti-EU bollocks has got us, don't we? Exactly where we are now. Staring into the abyss.
It takes some bloody front to be trying to pin any of the blame for this disaster on 'centrists'
We've weeks left before a no deal crashout, and the Brexit-addled Tory's have an 80 seat majority..
Your suggestions as to WTF else he can do at the 59th minute of the 11th hour? Saddled with the car crash that is entirely of his predecessors making
Anything Brexit-related at this point is going to be calamitous. Its some bodged half-arsed lash-up of a deal which will be hugely damaging or a totally disastrous crash out
Any even half-decent options evaporated 12 months ago when grandad handed Boris and his clown-circus its whacking great majority
Maybe he could spend 3 years with splinters up his arse from that *ing fence instead? The time for the labour leader to do something was 4 and a half *ing years ago, when the bloke who had the job at the time went on holiday for a couple of months, then spent the next 4 years with a fencepost up his arse
We have left the EU. We need a trade deal with the EU.
🤷🏻♂️
It takes some bloody front to be trying to pin any of the blame for this disaster on ‘centrists’
It's absolutely nothing to do with the former shadow minister for Brexit.
We all know who was calling the shots over the last 4 years and it wasn't the cabinet members.
Grandad, Seamas, Len and all the rest of the merry band of 70's-throwback, Bennite Brexiteer dinosaurs were driving policy, from his sabbatical on his allotment during the referendum, to calling for article 50 to be triggered immediately, to gift wrapping the Brexiteer opportunist his huge majority to 'Get Brexit Done'.
They own this mess as much as Boris, through their continued complicity. I'm sure Jezza will raise a little glass of carrot juice as we crash out, to mark his not insignificant contribution to something he'd wanted and campaigned for for decades
We all know who was calling the shots over the last 4 years and it wasn’t the cabinet members.
Absolutely. It's nothing to do with the man whipping his MPs to support a deal worse than the one he was leading the vote against.
Er… WE HAVE LEFT THE EU.
Your caps lock is stuck on.
Absolutely. It’s nothing to do with the man whipping his MPs to support a deal worse than the one he was leading the vote against.
Are you saying the opposite of what you mean? It's not always clear. What do you think Starmer should do?
Yeh sorry Daz
Your point doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Could you explain further?
Weve left the EU, we’re in a transition, we’re not going back in. Support for a deal is simply engaging with the world as it is.
binners
Full Member
We all know who was calling the shots over the last 4 years and it wasn’t the cabinet members.Grandad, Seamas, Len and all the rest of the merry band of 70’s-throwback, Bennite Brexiteer dinosaurs were driving policy, from his sabbatical on his allotment during the referendum, to calling for article 50 to be triggered immediately, to gift wrapping the Brexiteer opportunist his huge majority to ‘Get Brexit Done’.
They own this mess as much as Boris, through their continued complicity. I’m sure Jezza will raise a little glass of carrot juice as we crash out, to mark his not insignificant contribution to something he’d wanted and campaigned for for decades
If only he'd gone against his instincts and followed SKS advice and called for a 2nd referendum.
Brexit is Cameron's fault.
If only he’d gone against his instincts and followed SKS advice and called for a 2nd referendum.
Too late by then. The damage was already done.
If only the leader of the labour party hadn't decided to kick back on the allotment for a couple of months during the referendum campaign and had instead represented the interests of the overwhelming number of his MP's, members, and voters.
But then why would a lifelong Brexiteer bother with that?
Starmer is left with no good options. From June 24th 2016 all anyone could do was attempt some damage limitation to try and prevent the worst. Starmers only options now are to support ANY deal, as that has to be better than no deal, or watch Boris crash us out with no deal, which doesn't really bear thinking about
Weve left the EU, we’re in a transition, we’re not going back in. Support for a deal is simply engaging with the world as it is.
I assume he'll be applying his six tests to any deal.
33 days ‘till the end of the transition period.
Things Starmer can’t do…
- call for a change to our exit date
- call for PM to rescind A50 notification
- call for extension to transition period
- cancel Brexit
All those opportunities have passed. That those opportunities have passed may well be partly his fault… but they have passed. They are no longer options for the UK. What is possible is avoiding No Deal… in 33 days… and counting…
The six tests are irrelevant now that the only alternative to passing whatever piss poor deal Johnson proposes is no deal on an immovable date.
He could potentially abstain, but the joker in the pack here is how many ERG nutjobs will vote against ANY deal as they always wanted a no-deal crash out anyway
I think he should abstain. But that’s just the … “you broke it, you fix it” … mentality I have about this. Leave the Tories to pick between their two super damaging options. But Starmer taking a different course doesn’t surprise or bother me, really. Should it?
All those opportunities have passed. That those opportunities have passed may well be partly his fault…
Come on. You're perfectly aware that this is all the fault of he who shall not be named.
I assume he’ll be applying his six tests to any deal.
Its way too late for any of that to be relevant. Your deal options are whatever Boris presents, nothing else is on the cards.