Binners – Keith Starmer is just going to offer you polite Capitalism
There seems to an awful lot of assumptions going on here, with little or nothing to substantiate them.
As far as I’m aware, the Labour manifesto hasn’t changed at all.
It seems like the priority here, rather understandably, is establishing the party as a credible political force again. This he seems to be doing rather well.
Why is it that credibility and radical policies are considered mutually exclusive? They shouldn’t be. Like I said... I don’t share your pessimism. I think you may be surprised. I certainly hope so, because the mess this country is going to be in by this time next year is going to require radical action.
I honestly think Starmer gets that, which is why he’s sitting back and letting them get on with this car crash, as with an 80 seat majority, there’s not much else he can do anyway, but present a credible alternative for the upcoming shit/fan interface.
Most of us know that there are no sunny uplands and Brexit is going to be an absolute disaster, but when the full horror of it becomes reality, a lot of people who voted for their bullshit promises are going to be hearing the old Johnny Rotten refrain “ever had the feeling you’ve been cheated?”
This is the calm before the storm. We’re in for a seismic year in this country, and this prevents a huge opportunity for a Labour Party that looks a lot cannier than it has been for the last 5 years. Not least as we now have a leader who isn’t a lifelong Brexiteer
MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists... it makes perfect sense in a closed economy... we shouldn't become a closed economy. I doubt very much that any Labour leader will be quoting it, ever. But the argument as regards "we can't afford it" has been changed this year, and will be even more next year... and the next election is likely to more about spending priorities rather than any talk about further austerity or "balancing the books" nonsense of past election battles.
kelvin
Subscriberand the next election is likely to more about spending priorities rather than any talk about further austerity or “balancing the books” nonsense of past election battles.
We'll see. I think it'll go the opposite way and it'll all be "we spent all that money to Get Coronavirus Done and now we need to make cuts to pay for it". Also "There is no alternative" and "Labour will throw away all the hard work of the last few years"
Not unlikely. But I still think Johnson will want to (look to) be mister generous at the next election... he won't fight like Cameron and May did.
I know people that voted Tory instead of lib just to keep Corbyn out.
With that fear gone they will probably go back to voting lib. A few less votes for the scumbags when the time comes.
Next year, as this threadbare Americanised idea of Capitalism has delivered yet another economic implosion, even more severe than the last, then it might well be very fertile ground for a credible opposition to be offering radical alternatives.
FFS man you spent most of last year having a go at 'disaster socialists' who were supposedly enabling brexit and now you're positively salivating at the prospect of an economic implosion helping labour's chances and suggesting it as labour's primary strategy.
MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists…
Not read the bit on trade yet but please elaborate so I can responsd when I get to it. I see no reason why MMT should result in a closed or economically isolated society.
MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists… it makes perfect sense in a closed economy… we shouldn’t become a closed economy.
It's government spending. Not sure what you're driving at?
I don't want to be rude but what you say doesn't actually make sense. It's a description of the way the government finance and spending works - in a sovereign nation like ours.
We already do it. The USA already does it, as does Japan and Australia.
The only difference is that we don't harness it to benefit the vast majority of our population.
FFS man you spent most of last year having a go at ‘disaster socialists’ who were supposedly enabling brexit and now you’re positively salivating at the prospect of an economic implosion helping labour’s chances and suggesting it as labour’s primary strategy.
I don’t think Starmer is a disaster socialist. Jeremy Corbyn is. He was also a committed lifelong Brexiteer.
To compare the motives of the two of them is ludicrous. Corbyn wanted this and actively enabled it. Starmer is the grown up who’s been left to deal with Corbyns stupidity and the mess it’s left.
Still... we are where we are. Which grandad has to shoulder a lot of the responsibility for. Not that he will. Or the antisemitism, or two Tory election victories, Boris’s massive majority or any of the numerous other terrible things that are all his fault
If we’d have had anyone else other than that Brexiteer clown as (AWOL) Labour ‘leader’ during the referendum, we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place
Not unlikely. But I still think Johnson will want to (look to) be mister generous at the next election… he won’t fight like Cameron and May did.
It’s funny that Johnson may end up being a bigger neocon than Cameron was.
Zionism and socialism are mutually exclusive. You can only be one or the other.
Zionism and socialism are mutually exclusive. You can only be one or the other.
[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. Winston Churchill.
The kibbutz (Hebrew word for “communal settlement”) is a unique rural community; a society dedicated to mutual aid and social justice; a socioeconomic system based on the principle of joint ownership of property, equality and cooperation of production, consumption and education; the fulfillment of the idea “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”; a home for those who have chosen it.
[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new.
Great examples but he said zionism was incompatible with socialism, not being Jewish.
Modern zionism maybe - but zionism originally had a strong socialist leaning
Just for future reference here are the pledges he made to the membership before being selected.
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.
Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand.
1. Economic justice
Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.
2. Social justice
Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.
3. Climate justice
Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.
4. Promote peace and human rights
No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.
5. Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
6. Defend migrants’ rights
Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.
7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.
8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.
9. Equality
Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.
10. Effective opposition to the Tories
Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.
Herzl died in 1904. Trotsky, Luxemburg et al were socialists and anti-racists, they opposed zionism. To link those people with the kibbutz system is ludicrous, they would have defended the Palestinian refugees driven out by it (but, just to clarify, they were murdered before 1948, so they didn't).
Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job of shrinking and bankrupting the LP. I imagine when people campaign against the government, it will be like when RAR and the ANL were big in the 1970s, you never saw the LP. It would be difficult for the LP to lead a campaign when people don't know what it stands for. If Starmer is actually against privatising the NHS, might he not have mentioned that in PMQs when it was potentially being included in a trade deal?
NB. Being forensic, the desire for 'electability' and looking like the establishment is not enhanced by the sartorial splash of a Peter Christian advert. a combover and a squeaky voice.
Reading this thread really is a fascinating window into the strange reality some people live in. Starmer just seems a complete non entity. If Corbyn is criticised for being a bit quiet during the Brexit disaster the current leadership need lining up against a wall and shooting for desertion given what's gone on since March or whenever they got in. I mean I get Binners acts like a prepubescent kid with politics book and didn't like Corbyn but his blind faith support for the empty suit that Starmer is mystifies me.
I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now. That’s all The Starmtrooper needs to do . Become someone you can vote for.
I know voters who would have voted Lib Dem In the last election but voted Tory just to keep Corbyn out.
Votes are all that matters.
I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now. That’s all The Starmtrooper needs to do . Become someone you can vote for.
I know voters who would have voted Lib Dem In the last election but voted Tory just to keep Corbyn out.
Votes are all that matters.
End of thread, basically.
Ideological purity vs electability.
I also know many people who said they would have voted differently if it wasn't for (and I quote one) "that IRA-sympathising, ridiculous beardy old dinosaur who couldn't run a bath".
I don't agree with most of that, but Corbyn made it so easy for the right wing press to drip-drip stuff into the consciousness of people who can then be sold the line that Labour want to take away everything you've earned and give it to 'shirkers' - or whatever. Not my views, but the right wing press are extremely good at creating 'accepted wisdom' by drip-dripping half truths and lies expressed as opinion (but with the acknowledgment that it is an opinion in very small print).
I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now.
End of thread, basically.
Anecdote is not evidence and one poster on this chat bored proves nothing.
Its a sad state of affairs that doing nothing is the best way to get elected, having said that despite Starmer being so passive and Boris being completely useless voting intention is still quite markedly in favour of Boris.
Anecdote is not evidence and one poster on this chat bored proves nothing.
I’m center/right, and whilst I probably disagree with Starmer on many things, if I could vote I’d vote him over Boris or any of the usual conservative suspects. Same as my partner, same as some of her family and I imagine same as a lot of middle-class and young professionals that were left with the utter depressing reality of choosing between Corbyn and Boris.
So is your anecdote better evidence?
Latest Opiniom polling:
https://twitter.com/opiniumresearch/status/1287100555693666306?s=21
And from one I missed:
https://twitter.com/zoeparamour/status/1287287481742897152?s=21
He’s not convinced me yet… but then with the current political landscape, he doesn’t need to… he has my vote. He seems to be making progress.
As far as Labour voter opinions go, how does that compare with Corbyns best polling?
I do think you're better looking at the party's polling.
Which is good-ish currently.
https://twitter.com/UK_Polling/status/1289589593793167360?s=19
The ratings for Anneliese Dodds as a who would make the most competent CoE were terrible (something like 6% approval). People assuming Sunak was great was based on the fact he chucked something in at the time of need.
Worth remembering Sunak is a Brexiteer and has plenty of investment bank experience. He's not really on your side.
The real test is what happens next and it's not looking good. Tories reverting back to the market ... Insane.
We need a massive overhaul of the country's finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren't imaginative enough to rebound this one.
We need Labour now to offer something up - the time for just nodding with the Government is over.
This is Labour's opportunity ...
Holy crap, the number of people on Twitter that can’t read is amazing.
We need a massive overhaul of the country’s finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren’t imaginative enough to rebound this one.
I think this could be a first. Me and you agreeing on something. 😉
It’s obvious that the Tory’s priorities are to just get everything back to exactly how it was before, as quickly as possible. OI! Office drone! Get back on that train for your daily commute into your city centre offices and get buying lattes from Costa and sandwiches from Pret. Maybe a post-work pint in Spoons too.
That really is the sum total of their solutions, after everything that’s happened. The dearth of imagination is thoroughly depressing. They just want a quick return to the status quo that benefitted their mates so enormously
Then impose hyper-austerity on the rest of us to pay for it all
You’re right that there has never been a better time for the Labour Party to offer fairer, more imaginative (whisper it.... “radical’) solutions, and take a real look at how we order our society for the benefit of everyone and not just a select few
For me keeping relatively quiet and letting this car crash of coronavirus take it’s toll on the current administration isn’t enough, I want to know what he is planning to do and how he is going to organise it and fund it, not just keep highlighting how badly BoJo’s decision making is. Let’s face it any one of us could do that. He needs to stand up and be counted before I’ll see him as anything other than an opportunist politician.
Sweeping statemnets are easy, detail requires research thought and planning. Housing didn't make his 10 points above and yet it is crucial to a few of them. Taking people out of over-priced accomodation in thermal sieves and providing affordable energy efficient homes that are a pleasure to live in and near to people's places of work should be in the top three and doesn't feature at all.
We need a massive overhaul of the country’s finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren’t imaginative enough to rebound this one.
We need Labour now to offer something up – the time for just nodding with the Government is over.
Agreed Rone. This is what I want. Starmer currently looks too worried about appearing to offer alternatives that can be derided as “not getting behind this country”… but offering up that alternative plan for the country might be step two (step one being just to look competent and looking to lead a nation, not a faction), hopefully we’ll see it later. Hopefully.
For sure Kelvin.
I know the dangers of looking at polls every few days...
But this is not so good.
Irrespective of my thoughts on Starmer - I really don't see where this sort of support for the Tories is coming from.
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1290658524662554633?s=19
Polls are pointless, the Tories are in for 3-4 years regardless.
I think they'll screw this country into the ground, make themselves and their donors richer and them sit back and laugh at Labour as they try and fix/rebuilt the steaming pile if shite they inherit.
Remember when everyone said Corbyn was the problem and as soon as Labour had a credible centrist leader everything would be hunky dory?
If the Tories are still ahead in the polls now how can they ever lose? What would they have to do?
Remember when everyone said Corbyn was the problem and as soon as Labour had a credible centrist leader everything would be hunky dory?
The polling for the party is currently well behind the polling for the leader. It was the other way around. Starmer needs to convince enough of the country that the party is now for them... he hasn't yet... he might never succeed (I personally don't think he has the appeal needed to get Labour into power)... but even his (in my opinion) lack lustre performance so far is a stark contrast to the "I'll never vote for that man" response heard across the North of England last year...
Also... no one claimed anything would be "hunky dory", and Starmer isn't a "centrist", and there isn't an election for a long time, sadly.
all the vote the tories gained will be lost fairly quickly when brexit realities start to bite. they win, they get to own this shitshow.
Remember when everyone said Corbyn was the problem and as soon as Labour had a credible centrist leader everything would be hunky dory?
I remember saying the former, not the latter.
Magic Grandad was the most unpopular leader in UK political history, by a country mile. Looking at the laughable ramblings of Iain Duncan Smith today, it's amazing to think that even he didn't get anywhere near Jezzas negative poll ratings. He was uniquely voter-repelling
But after nearly 5 years of Corbynism (whatever that is?) its not a case of giving it a lick of paint. Its a rebuilding job from the foundations up. That's going to take time. He's got 4 years as it stands. Thats how long we're saddled with this lot for
I personally think the labour party should be being considerably more vocal in it criticism of the governments shambolic performance and offering much bolder alternatives than 'lets just go back to how things were before, but a bit shitter, post-Brexit' which seems to be the sum total of what this government has to say
In a crisis the PM gets more airtime and this is reflected in the polls as a positive boost - even if they perform badly in that crisis
In a crisis the PM gets more airtime and this is reflected in the polls as a positive boost – even if they perform badly in that crisis
This. People want to be believe and be re-assured that an entity such as a Government has a grip on the situation...albeit an extremely tenuous grip like this Government has.
This also has the added bonus of people either being forgiving(for the moment) for the "antics" that this Government get's up to, such as eye tests at Barnard Castle, or Shoeing in Russian oligarchs /family members into the House of Lords, or letting stuff pass "unnoticed" such as quietly handing over our confidential medical records to an organisation with links to Cambridge analytica, as they did on the last day of Parliament before Summer Recess in order to make sure questions weren't asked in the House, all they way through to IDS not reading the small print.
He needs to make some better appointments. Just watched the shadow chancellor on channel 4. I have no idea what her name is (having Googled it, it’s apparently Anneliese Dodds) I’d think nobody else does either.
She has all the presence, authority and gravitas of a primary school supply teacher.
Given that her opposite number is the only Tory with any credibility, she needs to up her game, quite considerably
She is very much … ‘great CV, but the interview should have weeded her out’.
shadow chancellor
I'm sure people were more of the opinion on here it was all Corbyn's fault - and change the leader and it everything would click into place.
Corbyn never had a much of a chance with lame idiots of the Guardian (Freeland) and the vile Ian Austin and his vote Tory letters. Not to mention 'my' own John Mann causing all manner of shit. And these people were supposed to be on the left!
20pts ahead with Keir Starmer is now the often cited joke that was very much the rubber stamp of 2019.
There seems to be an element of back tracking about to begin.
Another major poll to feast on.
https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1291358599114104832?s=19
Centrism will not win out. It simply can't. Change UK and the Libdems are the benchmark for failure.
And I agree Socialism is a very hard sell too but is the long term answer to many problems.
The red/blue wallers in my area are really into Boris. Crack that and we could make progress.
If you want to make the UK more socialist (I do) and, more importantly, take the reigns of power away form the mob currently in no10… stop bleating on about Corbyn and centrism.
If you want to make the UK more socialist (I do) and, more importantly, take the reigns of power away form the mob currently in no10… stop bleating on about Corbyn and centrism
I make a point of only mentioning Corbyn when other people bring him into the fold. There was a lot of good coming from his direction too. That shouldn't be backed off from.
Also I don't want us to just take the reigns of power - it has to also be a Government that will actually change something.
Centrism has to be discussed or bleated on.
I completely get looking forward but it's very difficult to debate these issues without avoiding the things you mention.
Also I don’t want us to just take the reigns of power
I wouldn’t worry your head over that particular ‘problem’.
Have you been living in a cave for 5 years? Oh... sorry... Maybe a common room?
The UK will never ever elect a socialist government. Especially not one fronted by some bearded weirdo
We know that you don’t like that fact, and refuse to come to terms with it, but there it is... that’s the reality of the situation. He tested it to destruction. Twice. The last attempt delivered the worst labour performance for 85 years and delivered Boris a thumping great majority to do what the hell he likes
Deal with it
So the Labour Party has to offer something that can get as much social justice as possible into something that the majority of people will actually vote for
Otherwise it’s just permanent Tory rule which benefits nobody other than the rich.
People slag off Tony Blair and ‘centrism’ for delivering 13 years of Labour government and three election victories.
There’s a name for these people...
Actually, I can think of quite a few names for them. Some of them quite sweary. None are complimentary
And to pre-empt the next word out of your mouth...
IRAQ!!!
Maybe you should leave the common room and engage with reality?
Just a thought
You need 40% of the public. Less than half that are happy to use the word socialism at all. Look, I think Starmer is a lack lustre leader who’ll surprise me if he wins an election… but I’ll take him as PM, if he can get the support of enough voters, over Johnson, Patel, Raab… any of them. If you think it’s Corbyn’s way, or it might as well be Cummings’ way… then, you’re a selfish idealist helping to doom the country to a generation of right wing asset stripping.
