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This is a bad headline from a pro-Labour newspaper:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-weighing-up-pledge-26913800
Starmer shouldn't be "weighing up" a pledge, it makes it seem as if he isn't certain.
That is funny. Johnson, after his many lies to parliament were uncovered
Your point caller? Everyone sane knows Johnson isnt PM material and so comparing Starmer against him is flawed. Do you really want the standard to be set by Johnson?
Starmer could have got control of the situation quickly enough and made Johnson look even more of a self serving arsehole than before but failed to do so.
Very poor showing from Starmer IMO. Unlike many here I've largely had confidence (albeit waning with time) in him but that interview was poor. Claiming to be honest and unlike the tories while simultaneously using the same soundbite and refusing to answer questions directly was a bad look. Even a simple question like 'were you embarrassed?' was ignored, would have been easy to say 'of course I'm embarrassed but I ahve confidence in the police'
disappointed to be honest.
Do you really want the standard to be set by Johnson?
Absolutely not. While we're used to the standards expected of Labour leaders being far higher than for Conservative leaders... this one now has gone bonkers. Johnson can keep kicking anything and everything down the tracks, and people should move on... against why hasn't Starmer got this sorted already? What are the Daily Mail calling it BEERGATE, DAY 12? And he's "running scared"... while Johnson lies, deflects and avoids for months and months (and will do for many more months to come)... and he's described as "battling" and "defiant".
Rayner & Starmer have both said they'll resign if fined. Good, just a pity they didn't say that in the first place.
Can't help but think Starmer has just signed his own death warrant. Not that he had any choice, because he's been digging his own grave for some time now. Maybe I'm being overly suspicious but I have no faith at all that the decision by the cops will not be influenced by the politics. I guess the crux will be whether Starmer resigning is good or bad for Johnson? Given Johnson's lack of self-awareness and tendency to take the high risk route I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to pull the trigger.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he decides to pull the trigger.
You mean call an election?
Because you can't mean him resigning because of his own words and actions.
The Tories now saying that Starmer is being unfair on poor Durham Police
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1523669231711420416
He's dancing round on a pinhead.
At his press conference today every other line was "I'm different / I'm honest / I have integrity".
He then pledges to resign not if he's found to have broken the covid regulations but only if he is fined for having done so.
As Durham Police have already said they won't issue fines retrospectively this seems like a pretty empty pledge - not least because Sunak was fined simply for having walked into a room where people were drinking cups of tea.
The Tories now saying that Starmer is being unfair on poor Durham Police
You mean, whatever Starmer does do, or doesn't do, or considers before doing... he's in the wrong with this one? Seems so.
You mean call an election?
You know what I mean. The men in grey suits will be mobilised to put pressure on the Durham Chief Constable to ensure the result that will be most beneficial for Johnson. Johnson just has to decide what that is.
Johnson just has to decide what that is.
Oh, you're on that line still are you. I honestly thought you were joking. I don't think the police will issue a fine based on instructions handed down from the PM. I do think political decisions can be involved as regards to having (or continuing, or reopening) investigations, but I don't think that they will issue a fine without having everything present and correct to do so.
He then pledges to resign not if he’s found to have broken the covid regulations but only if he is fined for having done so.
Wise. To issue a fine the police have to be ready for a legal challenge (in this case from a back bench MP, after Starmer has stepped down) so will need to have proof and a clear case to present. But the wording of any statement when a fine isn't going to happen is likely to be non-committal either way, and could be jumped on as... "They weren't cleared, therefore they should resign".
What are the Daily Mail calling it BEERGATE, DAY 12?
Ermmm because its the daily hate. I am surprised you seem to have only just noticed they do this sort of thing and then get amplified by others.
Now if Starmer had done the announcement he just did right when the police announced it was being referred they would have had the wind taken out of their sails.
All your hyperbole about getting it sorted misses the mark. All he needed to do was take some clear action rather than act like Johnson and pretend it wasnt happening.
I am surprised you seem to have only just noticed they do this sort of thing and then get amplified by others.
I presume you skipped over the last few pages where I made the same point repeatedly.
I've no idea why he waited, what, 2 days, to make this move. Or even if it is the right one. But if it could take Rayner and others down with him, I hope he did take time to talk it through with everyone involved and affected, rather than just blurt it out day one to the media.
God I hate politicians and the media 😐
The Labour Party really should grow a pair and stand up to the media. Keir's cosying up to various papers has done him no good has it?
I don’t think the police will issue a fine based on instructions handed down from the PM.
They won't be stupid enough to instruct them. They're far more subtle and clever than that.
I’ve no idea why he waited, what, 2 days, to make this move. Or even if it is the right one. But if it could take Rayner and others down with him, I hope he did take time to talk it through with everyone involved and affected, rather than just blurt it out day one to the media.
He's a renowned lawyer and QC, i doubt he's not put some thought into this, the issue with Rayner was caused by the labour party spokesperson stating she wasn't there, not Starmer or his office i believe.
I'd guess it's taken two days because it's over the weekend, and he'll have told the party/team first.
Personally i'm starting to think SKS needs to find a way out, he's got a decent career outside of politics and Labour and the party just seem to spend more time fighting themselves than the tories.
SKS had to say this. I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference to Boris.
the issue with Rayner was caused by the labour party spokesperson stating she wasn’t there, not Starmer or his office i believe
True, but if Starmer says "I'll resign if I am fined", and then she doesn't... around and around it goes. They need the same approach (again, not sure this is a good one, but it may well be the least bad one right now, I don't know), and they need to have discussed and agreed it as a team.
The Labour Party really should grow a pair and stand up to the media.
On this one, they were, until the Police enquiry was reopened.
I don’t think it’ll make a blind bit of difference to Boris.
Agreed.
Keir’s cosying up to various papers has done him no good has it?
Absolutely.
He needs to "cosy up" to their readers though.
As this seems to have really annoyed the, RW save big dog journos and the hardcore corbynistas
It's probably the right move as regards the majority of the electorate.
All those client journos banging on about beergate , now have the very real possibility of Starmer boosting his reputation and Johnson being damaged even further
Alternative is that he gets fined and has to quit, but either way Johnson is diminished
He needs to “cosy up” to their readers though
He has and it hasn't worked because they have Johnson.
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer's pedigree to not know he's broken the law?
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
With laws as badly drafted as the COVID ones?
Who knows and the reason there are appeals processes etc is that law is elastic & dynamic, to varying degrees.
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
He's reiterated every time why he believes he has not 'broken' any law, but it's down to interpretation by someone else, specifically on the exemptions around the COVID rules.
As for all the talk of Johnson, why are people bothering with this rubbish, he is currently PM because he backstabbed his fellow tories and friends, lied, and backed a Brexit campaign for personal reasons, rather than what he actually believed in. He has had scandal after scandal in his life without batting an eyelid, let alone 'doing the honourable thing', at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
Best case scenario is that a pissed off copper has tipped Starmer the nod that there won't be a FPN, and make whatever capital out of it you can.
Whatever, it won't affect Johnson. He wouldn't resign if he was found, covered in blood, holding a bloodied lead pipe next to the corpse of Mr Black in the Library. And the kind of arsehole that votes for Brexit or a Conservative party headed by Johnson wouldn't give a shit anyway.
It is what it is.
🤷♂️
Angela Rayner said she'd resign as well if fined. TBH there was nowhere for either of them to go otherwise and this way they hold the higher ground.
I suspect they will not be fined - but if they are and go, then it will provide a perfect opportunity for the Tories to call a snap election. It would be a desperate and shitty trick - but...
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
I think he KNOWS he hasn't.
But that in itself won't stop the noise, and saying that he knows that he hasn't broken the law will make it worse.
And he's damned if he looks like he's telling the police how to do their job (or the job of the CPS), so he just has to let the investigation proceed.
As for all the talk of Johnson, why are people bothering with this rubbish, he is currently PM because he backstabbed his fellow tories and friends, lied, and backed a Brexit campaign for personal reasons, rather than what he actually believed in. He has had scandal after scandal in his life without batting an eyelid, let alone ‘doing the honourable thing’, at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
+1 @agree - agreed!
From a recent Guardian article:
After hours of agonising with key aides, Starmer said he intended to draw a distinction with Boris Johnson’s approach.
I find that so bizarre, it should have been a piece of piss to say from the start "of course I will resign if I am issued with a fixed penalty notice - haven't I been saying all along that Johnson should resign for recieving a FPN?".
I don't know where the "hours of agonising with key aids" comes from. Unless it's not true and the Guardian is now gunning for Starmer.
I think he KNOWS he hasn’t
but it’s down to interpretation by someone else,
And those two statements highlight the issue.
If he KNOWS he hasn't why would he have had to say he would resign?
So it's looking like he doesn't know.
I guess if it was just about him then yes is probably is a piece of piss, but there's another leadership contest with no obvious successor to consider.
There might be doubt?
If he KNOWS he hasn’t why would he have had to say he would resign?
So it’s looking like he doesn’t know.
He is Schrodinger's opposition leader - but the situation will resolve as soon as the box is opened. Either he and Rayner will go and that will be big the story - plus a protracted leadership contest. Or he's not fined so he can attack Boris from the moral high ground when more No10 fines come through. What happens in the limbo period will be forgotten
There might be doubt?
But I'm just trying to understand why someone of his professional pedigree would not know the absolute ins and outs of the law at that time.
he probably has a good case but innocent people are convicted and the guilty go free?
If there is a leadership contest I reckon Lisa Nandy and Wes Streeting are positioning
But I’m just trying to understand why someone of his professional pedigree would not know the absolute ins and outs of the law at that time.
If this all goes tits up for Starmer his mistake won't be that he broke covid restrictions, it will be that he created such a song and dance about Johnson breaking them. Especially considering how long the charge sheet against Johnson is.
I know everyone one on here is mostly perfect but I doubt that there are many who never over the last couple of years broke, even unwittingly, covid restrictions.
If he KNOWS he hasn’t why would he have had to say he would resign?
I would have thought the opposite. Assuming he doesn't actually want an excuse for resigning, and would prefer to stay as leader, then offering to resign makes sense, as he won't actually have to resign.
If there is a leadership contest I reckon Lisa Nandy v Wes Streeting
They’re both soft left I believe, I can’t see a contest without a real left, unions backed candidate, not even sure who on that end would be viable, Rayner was the closest, RLB is a bit of a bust and the rest are a bit green?
Don't think the PLP will let any type of left wing candidate on the ballot.
Sigh.
Putting his political career on the line, Sir Keir, who stressed that he was “absolutely clear” no rules were broken, said that if he is fined by police, he will “do the right thing and step down”
That's a bit of a stronger statement than our fat lying sack of dung of a PM, mr Johnson, what was the best he could muster?...let me recall the time line..
1) I wasn't there
2) I was there but it wasn't a party
3) It was a party but no one told me it was a a party
4) It's just a FPN, I've better things to worry about, nothing to see here
etc etc...
at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
Because I don't know where else to post this, although I understand the issue I'm absolutely aghast that of all of Johnsons lying, cheating, extortion, mistakes, cover ups etc etc that he's managed to stay in power AND then may still be present to gloat about removing the opposition leader over a bottle of beer (I know, the law was broken).
It almost beggars belief.
If this all goes tits up for Starmer his mistake won’t be that he broke covid restrictions, it will be that he created such a song and dance about Johnson breaking them.
That's not really my recollection. It felt like he went ages being slated for NOT calling for Johnson's resignation and being too soft on him - witness this tweet (and the disappointed replies from labour supporters) from December:
https://mobile.twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1468574092156870659