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who would you have instead?
I've said many times that the only shadow cabinet member capable of connecting with the voters is Rayner. I don't particularly like the way she has fallen in behind Starmer and completely denied her past sucking up to Corbyn, and she's a careerist for sure, but she's the only one with the authentic backstory, passion and the understanding of life for people in the bottom half of society. She'll put off a lot of chattering middle class snobs, but would make up for that by winning support from the young and the non-voting working class.
Yvette Cooper?
Wes Streeting?
Jess Phillips?
Joke list?
I think the key is - we have who we have. But we want him to be a HELL of a lot better.
"Joke list?
I think the key is – we have who we have. But we want him to be a HELL of a lot better."
So about as useful as my answer then really.
I agree with dazh and you actually - we do have who we have and we have Rayner. The fact she was attacked so viciously recently by the right wing media shows there is something there they are scared of. It almost makes more sense to have her as the figurehead and Keir as the deputy. Boris and his cronies really don't understand her, underestimate her and haven't got many angles they can attack her on without the optics looking very badly for them. Keir on the other hand as a fellow member of the establishment is easy to read.
So about as useful as my answer then really.
I'd go for Clive Lewis.
It's nothing new to get questioned on here about who you would want instead when the current Starmer doesn't come up to scratch - but is irrelevent because Starmer is the leader at the most desperate time.
And actually Lisa Nandy has at least shown some guts recently.
I would have said Rayner but I reckon the press would constantly smear her so would be an interesting battle but would probably sideline the politics.
(Do also remember Starmer was apparantly the guaranteed solution to Corbyn. 20pts ahead etc.)
The fact she was attacked so viciously recently by the right wing media shows there is something there they are scared of.
They're terrified of her. Which is why they've already started the smear campaign and are painting her as a working class sl**. She can turn the unbridled mysogyny she exposes into a lot of votes.
The problem is not entirely what he says, but how he says it.
Absolutely this. How has he not got the hang of these media appearances yet?!? He's just not good enough at this stuff. As a plan B... I'd really like Labour to present themselves more as a front bench team, and reject this presidential style nonsense. I'd rather he was replaced before a general election... but Labour just isn't built that way, is it.
Still... some how... he's polling as the most popular politician in the UK... so... I dunno... ignore me. Not sure he's done anything today to help councillors get elected though.
Nandy is an utter idiot ( see her ignorant statement on scotland). No way on earth. Lewis a sexist nonentity ( but otherwise good instincts). Raynor I have a little more respect for but she is not PM material IMO
This is the main issue - the total lack of talent and no one willing to question the orthodoxy in the party ( followers not leaders)
The point being just what we all think on here about a future leader bears no resemblance to how they actually perform.
Starmer was utterly lionised as the absolute solution on here (not by me) - and yet look how it's turned out.
So it doesn't really matter what we think versus reality.
An almost useless debate.
Back to Starmer - he doesn't even look bothered to me, and done way more harm than good currently by not focussing on the things that count - rather than playing this steady hand long-game leader that James O'Brien thinks is so amazing.
I'm not hugely interested or excited about leaders unless the party show some invention over solid future investment ideas. Everything else is just a grind of the current decaying political system.
So going from a 10 -20 pt deficit in the polls to a 5-10 pt lead? Being the highest rated politician by the english public?
He has got it to stick that Johnson is an untrustworthy liar and made Johnson look very foolish
Again I ask - who could do better?
to me the issue is still the orthodoxy in the labour party is "give them what they want" ie follow the public mood whereas they should be leading the public mood but this is not down to Starmer - this has been labour orthodoxy for 20 years
I'm sorry but Keir has not got it to stick that Johnson is a liar. Johnson has done that by himself as he is literally so untrustworthy that even some Tory voters have had enough.
Same goes for being the highest rated politician - he's just a least worse option.
As Rone said above, he almost sounds like he's not bothered. I got the feeling when he was talking in the R4 interview this morning when he said he didn't become the leader to be in opposition that he was trying to convince himself of that statement!
So going from a 10 -20 pt deficit in the polls to a 5-10 pt lead?
Here's the rub... that might well be the best Labour can do right now (and at the next election), whoever is the leader. I keep having to check myself... moaning about Labour being only slightly ahead could well be complacency, and ignores just how bad things could have been at this point. There was talk of the party being over not that long ago... now it's consistently ahead in the polls... perhaps all the "not good enough" talk (including from me) is ignoring just how hard things are for Labour across much of the UK right now, and doesn't take into account the tightrope the Labour team are walking... trying to keep young city dwellers onside, while aiming to win over older town and village voters. It's not easy. Mr Boring perhaps isn't given enough credit for the work already done... even if he doesn't have what it takes to go even further... but then... does anyone?
Raynor I have a little more respect for but she is not PM material IMO
Who cares if she's not 'PM Material'? I don't even know what that means TBH. All that matters is whether she can win enough votes to become PM. Whether she's qualified for the job is pretty irrelevant, and the last time I looked there was no job spec which requires certain experience or qualifications to do it.
All that matters is whether she can win enough votes to become PM.
IMO she cannot which is why she is not PM material
IMO she cannot which is why she is not PM material
Well by that measure Starmer isn't PM material either. Labour have to choose someone though even if they're all rubbish, and IMO Rayner would be better than Starmer, or any of the other candidates, for the reasons I've already stated.
Hate to say this but if not Rayner then Streeting is probably the best alternative. He's an attack dog, and has a working class background. Trouble is he spends more time attacking Corbyn and people in his own party than he does the tories, which is a shame because he's quite good at attacking the tories when he wants to.
^^^ I agree with daz. jawdrop emoji.
I agree with TJ, Rayner is just too much of a firebrand just now to be the head of the party, i have to give her some credit as she's actually calmed a bit lately and working pretty well with Starmer. She could be votable somewhere in the near future if Labour got in and moving Starmer on was viable. She is easily more votable for the left in the labour party, but they're not the issue, it's those sway votes that will change the standing in parliament next time.
I just don't see it just now, even a few comments above are saying 'she'll scare the tories/middle classes/etc', those are some of the votes that labour needs to move over to red to win seats, I just read a lot of stuff in this thread that seem to think binning Starmer and installing a proper lefty is the only solution, without looking at the long game, which in the UK just now is not a sudden leap from right of centre to middle or far left.
Well by that measure Starmer isn’t PM material either.
Apart from leading in the polls, the most liked english politican etc etc?
without looking at the long game, which in the UK just now is not a sudden leap from right of centre to middle or far left.
Errmmm - we have a far right government right now.
That Channel4News debate gave us a chance to see exactly you mean about Streeting. Very, very good. Joined things up while still sounding clear and engaging. I’d have this front bench over the current cabinet in a heartbeat, and I think more voters would feel the same if they saw more of them. Drop the presential stuff, present the whole team as a team. That works if the Conservatives do get caught up in leadership talk and fighting between cabinet members… but also works if they keep Johnson because they feel they have no one else. The “we have a team of people ready to replace Johnson and his stooges” might resonate better than a simple Starmer vs Johnson proposal. I dunno, just freewheeling…
It cant be just Keir on his own (as tbf he is dull), they need to be seen as a capable team & to get on TV a bit so people can get to know them.
As for PM material Johnson is not it is he?! There is not a more ridiculous looking/ acting leader anywhere on the planet.
Well by that measure Starmer isn’t PM material either.
Apart from leading in the polls, the most liked english politican etc etc?
Do you really think that Labour's lead in the polls, which if replicated in a general election would be insufficient to form a majority government, is down to Starmer's personal appeal and charisma?
at least in part its because of his obvious honesty and competence yes - and I do not believe any other labour politician I know of would do better.
Oh - and the polls would give them a government as they would be by far the largest party and might even get a slim majority
But then nothing Starmer did could ever satisfy many of you and you will not suggest an alternative
As you rightly pointed out earlier Starmer is the symptom not the illness - there are no leaders in the labour party. Blair turned it into a party of followers and wethervane politicians.
so once again Ernie - if Starmer is so poor who would you rather have?
But then nothing Starmer did could ever satisfy many of you
Well that's obviously nonsense, as you well know. Starmer's 10 pledges on his website are hugely popular.
Any criticism of Starmer isn't based on issues which are beyond his control.
some how… he’s polling as the most popular politician in the UK
What a useless poll - Sturgeon’s approval ratings only matters in Scotland and she’s streets ahead of anyone else
The elephant in the room is Labour’s position on Scottish Independence because they’re not going to gain a WM majority unless they work in a coalition. Meanwhile, in Scotland Labour are promoting former Orange Lodge leaders as candidates and working with the Tories in some areas.
And those 10 pledges still stand! Just they do not mean what you want them to. Public ownwership is a great example - it does not need to be nationalisation as is generally understoood. there are many models of public ownership
However its obvious that nothing starmer does will ever satisfy a load of the crtics.
anyway - I am daft for coming back to this thread. I shall bow out again
What a useless poll – Sturgeon’s approval ratings only matters in Scotland and she’s streets ahead of anyone else
Which is why I said English politician
Public ownwership is a great example – it does not need to be nationalisation as is generally understoood. there are many models of public ownership
Lol. And that means what? Show me the evidence of what Starmer actually means by this economic model of common ownership then?
(Clue: he's being vague as ****.)
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1521439825479487489?t=rJhJR_s0FqH_9D8tMYjkMQ&s=19
Dunt pissing his pants at the very thing that he wanted.
All i'm seeing from the above is the same thing he's stated since the Stop the War letter, he also has seen Jeremy Corbyn continue this slant on NATO since the retraction from the Labour MP's, so a very clear line in the sand has been made on what was originally a complete own goal by those sitting MPs who signed it, especially after the invasion started and the entire landscape of the world changed, we're even seeing the nordic countries start moving towards NATO now.
The elephant in the room is Labour’s position on Scottish Independence because they’re not going to gain a WM majority unless they work in a coalition. Meanwhile, in Scotland Labour are promoting former Orange Lodge leaders as candidates and working with the Tories in some areas.
Scotland is a weird position, it's nothing like the labour battle in England and Wales, the SNP fought their battle well over the last 20 years, moving left and taking those Labour seats and councils, Labour just don't seem to have much of an answer, but as far as i can see, it's a completely different question to the rest of the UK. Personally i'm interested in how Labour vs Tories go in the local elections, the SNP will do well as always because they are pretty much set up to win votes in Scotland, just by their very nature and set up, but for me they have taken more labour voters over the years than tories, so this could be a pointer towards any drop in tory popularity, then again there are so many variables it's a bit of a head scratcher, there may well be apathy for the SNP in some areas due to usual politics.
Still can't believe an orange order grandmaster is going labour for the elections though, i guess as it's all about keeping the union his mates might vote for him, but it's just mental to think that, i was going to say it'll move a lot of lifelong labour voters out the door in that area, then i noticed it was Airdrie North 😂
He has got it to stick that Johnson is an untrustworthy liar and made Johnson look very foolish
I think a good chunk of that is BoJo himself, I happened to catch SKS on Today yesterday morning and have to say I was underwhelmed, a little too much not quite answering questions, too much "we'll provide policy details closer to the election" I can see the frustrations many have with him.
Raynor I have a little more respect for but she is not PM material IMO
What does that even mean? The current PM isn't "PM material". I'd love to see her in the role but I think you have to accept the entrenched sexism in the electorate and that many would "struggle" to vote for her... SKS is the vanilla front man Labour need unfortunately, Raynor is the attacking counterpart who's face doesn't need to 'fit' in the top job, but definitely lands punches and has a visceral hatred of corrupt Tory shitebags...
Nothing is ever perfect, but I'd still happily vote for Starmer over Johnson today. So would a lot of other people.
Last week Nick Ferrari spent all week telling everyone to move on from the Partygate job.
"For the love of God there's a war going on."
This morning it's all about Starmer and the Durham event, and it's not going away whilst Johnson delivers his faux script for Ukraine.
What a mess of overlapping issues and confused gammon baiting.
Errmmm – we have a far right government right now.
I think people who do live under far right regimes (Hungary Poland Russia) would probably find the idea risible
I think people who do live under far right regimes (Hungary Poland Russia) would probably find the idea risible
Our market driven economy is absolutely far right, and that defines a good chunk of it.
The Brexit Party and Ukip very much helped the Tories along with the racism too.
Mleh, Orban went on telly and called immigrants "poison". The Sun might get away with that, but Patel would be out of a job is she said anything close to it. Besides, as bad as they are, our immigration protections make even places like France seem totalitarian. UKIP would be the voice of reason in Hungary. In his recent election winning speech Orban more or less blamed Jews for all the worlds ills. In Poland some leaked emails show that the president wanted the army on the streets shooting at abortion rights protestors (mostly women).
Gay marriage, abortion rights, small military, cops without weapons, independent judiciary. opposition parties, free press...No far right govt would tolerate any of these things
“Not as right wing as Orban” - great.
Anyway, local elections… please get out and vote (if you haven’t done so by post already).
“Not as right wing as Orban” – great.
Or so far left of Orban that the comparison is pointless.
And those 10 pledges still stand! Just they do not mean what you want them to.
Those 10 pledges are clear, direct, and unambiguous, which is indeed part of their appeal.
If you are claiming that the 10 pledges are open to interpretation then you either haven't read them or you are guilty of blatant dishonesty.
For example "Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations" cannot mean anything other than what it says.
And I'm glad you feel that pledge still stands, on the extremely rare occasions that Starmer discusses Labour policies he is less than forthright and direct.
As for your claim that we currently have a far-right government and Starmer represents a left-wing alternative it suggests that a change of government now would represent a massive, revolutionary, upheaval.
I think Starmer would be mortified if he thought he was seen as this radical you appear to be claiming he is.
"Steady as she goes' and "careful now" is about the sum total of Starmer's radical strategy.
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521172754887815174?t=GdWtv4UuRqV-9wmUvwxBDQ&s=19
It's almost like there is a Tory gene buried deep into certain people.
That's insane.
It’s almost like there is a Tory gene buried deep into certain people.
Not sure how that poll was taken, but the fact 'Don't Know' is almost the leading percentage each time makes it look less credible, either being aimed at the wrong metrics for the poll, or those who aren't really able to do a poll honestly.
Again though, these polls are a bit useless outside of an election campaign, same thing as approval ratings, they tend to be like a bathtub curve over a period between elections.
Ignore the "they're all the same" and "nothing would change under Starmer" and other false equivalence bullshit.
Please get out and vote.
There's good reason the likes of the Daily Mail is pushing these lines on every front page this week... to get people to stay at home rather than vote against Conservative candidates. Protect the owner's non-Dom tax status. Stop Labour in its tracks. Prevent change.
to get people to stay at home rather than vote against Conservative candidates. Protect the owner’s non-Dom tax status.
100% this
Again though, these polls are a bit useless outside of an election campaign, same thing as approval ratings, they tend to be like a bathtub curve over a period between elections
The polls are the only metric we have for looking at opinion at one moment in time outside of voting.
I think currently they are very much worth looking at.
However, of course they are absolutely not conclusive.
the fact ‘Don’t Know’ is almost the leading percentage each time makes it look less credible
Why does it make it less credible?
I would be highly suspicious of a poll which claimed that almost everyone had an opinion on who would make the better PM.
Most people have absolutely no idea on what Starmer's policies would be if he was PM. Presumably the 35% who say he would be a better PM are basing that on a mixture of faith and hope.
Why does it make it less credible?
I would be highly suspicious of a poll which claimed that almost everyone had an opinion on who would make the better PM.
It's all the way through the poll that they have done, even breaking it down to the groupings, and sub-questions associated, it just seems to be very grey in terms of responses, and with so much unknowns, the error bars on those percentages will be massive!
If the question was Johnson vs a Dustbin, the answer is emphatically the Dustbin.
There's no room for doubt. I find it unfathomable that 64% of those polled were either too blue or somehow confused by the question.
What IS wrong with people?