Groundhog Day.
Ernie… comrade… have you actually read any of that link I posted up? Clealrly not. If you click on the many links from that article they’ll take you to Seamas Milne articles justifying Stalinism.
It’s no secret. He’s open about his admiration of a genocidal mass murderer. Which is why quire a few eyebrows were raised when the then leader of the Labour Party appointed him as his chief policy advisor
Though given what Jezza and Dianne have had to say over the last week they’re equally swooney over Putin
Back to Starmer, does anyone think he cares? He doesn’t care about Ukraine, all he sees is another opportunity to ally himself with arms dealers and shady power brokers and ingratiate himself with the people who could prevent him being prime minister.
Mate, much as I love you, do you not get tired with your cynical, depressive nihilism? It’s not healthy
You really think that Starmer is saying what he said because he’s allying himself with arms dealers? Seriously?
It’s no secret. He’s open about his admiration of a genocidal mass murderer. Which is why quire a few eyebrows were raised when the then leader of the Labour Party appointed him as his chief policy advisor
If he openly admires Stalin it would be very easy for you to provide links in which he openly admires Stalin.
Despite repeated requests you simply cannot. The only thing you have managed to do is provide a link to someone claiming that he admires Stalin.
Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of being a terrorist sympathiser, as indeed has former US president Barack Obama, it is a fairly standard smear from right-wingers like yourself who lack the ability to engage in constructive debate.
It doesn't however mean that there is any truth in the claims or that, for example, they were admirers of Osama bin Laden, whatever quotes of theirs are creatively taken in isolation and out of context.
It is designed to provide simple knee-jerk reactions from people who want to believe it and can't be bothered to think.
It was a smear also used extensively by right-wingers against Sadiq Khan when he first stood for London mayor, and of course was based on what he had previously said being taken out of context.
The fact that you feel compelled to resort to those right-wing tabloid tactics binners speaks volumes. Especially as you claim be a member of the Labour Party - most people who use gutter-raking tactics are more honest.
Btw your claim that a self-confessed admirer of Stalin was appointed by Corbyn "raised a few eyebrows" is made all the more ridiculous by fact that he was an associate editor of the Guardian at the time of his appointment. You must have done a lot of eyebrow raising every time you picked up your beloved bastion and holy bible of liberal thought 😉
made all the more ridiculous by fact that he was an associated editor of the Guardian at the time of his appointment
To be fair, the Guardian also had Melanie Phillips as a columnist.
To be fair, the Guardian also had Melanie Phillips as a columnist.
Only when she was a left-wing liberal, not after she became a rabid right-winger. Unsurprisingly.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/jun/16/media.politicsphilosophyandsociety
Her world view, whether she is writing about the inadequacies of the education system or the sanctity of marriage, seem a world away from Guardian values now. She clearly sees the split in the same way.
do you not get tired with your cynical, depressive nihilism?
It’s hardly depressive it’s just realistic. Doesn’t take a political genius to work out what his motivations are. He desperately needs to prove to the arms industry that he isn’t a threat to their grubby business, and the Ukraine issue is a perfect opportunity.
The latest Opinium opinion poll for The Observer gives Labour a 3% lead, the smallest Labour lead in many weeks.
But, and it's quite a big but, Opinium have used a different methodology for their latest poll. Under the previous methodology the the Labour lead would be 10%. This is apparently due to "the fact that many Conservative voters are moving to undecided (and being excluded from the headline vote share figure), which is a big part of the reason for the recent Labour leads".
https://www.opinium.com/resource-center/uk-voting-intention-27th-january-2022-2/
No idea of the accuracy of the new methodology but presumably The Observer as a client has sufficient confidence in Opinium. And according to Opinium :
In the 2019 General Election, our final poll matched the final result almost exactly – with only the green vote overstated by 1%.
"As far as I am aware no one else has felt the need to talk about Corbyn"
I have!
The simple fact is that Corbyn has inserted himself into the picture. I don't doubt his intentions and he is nothing if not consistent in his beliefs. I'm not even questioning his motives but the man is so blind to realities that he can't see the damage he causes.
Does his presence help the stop the war coalition? Nope. Does it help the Labour Party? Nope. Does he potentially provide ammunition for the RW, media, with which they can seek to tarnish the Labour Party in general? Yes.
I say potentially because by leaving Starmer no choice Corbyn manages to demonstrate how detached from the mainstream of the Labour Party he has become. It's not that Starmer is trying to appease the Daily Mail, hes just taking another opportunity to demonstrate to the public that he is nothing like Corbyn whatsoever.
Jeremy is becoming more like his brother every day.
Jeremy is becoming more like his brother every day.
Idiotic comment quite frankly. Corbyn is doing what he's always done, which is campaign for peace and social justice. That's all he's ever done, and he's been completely consistent in what he says and does. If you think that's a bad thing and 'doing damage' then that's more a reflection on you than Corbyn.
The simple fact is that Corbyn has inserted himself into the picture. I don’t doubt his intentions and he is nothing if not consistent in his beliefs. I’m not even questioning his motives but the man is so blind to realities that he can’t see the damage he causes.
Does his presence help the stop the war coalition? Nope. Does it help the Labour Party? Nope. Does he potentially provide ammunition for the RW, media, with which they can seek to tarnish the Labour Party in general? Yes.
I say potentially because by leaving Starmer no choice Corbyn manages to demonstrate how detached from the mainstream of the Labour Party he has become. It’s not that Starmer is trying to appease the Daily Mail, hes just taking another opportunity to demonstrate to the public that he is nothing like Corbyn whatsoever.
Jeremy is becoming more like his brother every day.
Bringing up Corbyn at every conceivable opportunity certainly gives you and binners the opportunity to deflect any criticism of Starmer, on a thread about Starmer, away. As Daz's comment proves.
The RW media don't attack stop the war because of Corbyn and Abbot, they attack Stop The War because the RW media like foreign wars.
The RW media didn't attack Corbyn because of him as a person. They attacked him because he became plausible threat.
The RW media attack the Labour party at any time they are seen as the slightest, most minute threat. C.f. Brown, Miliband. Starmer's strategy is to minimise and sense of threat - where the 'threat' is any real change - in the hope of getting the acquiesce of the RW media.
And, the strategy won't work, because the RW media will go into overdrive to attack him come the next general election.
"The RW media don’t attack stop the war because of Corbyn and Abbot,"
Really?
"The RW media didn’t attack Corbyn because of him as a person. They attacked him because he became plausible threat"
Well, much of the rest of the country saw him as a plausible threat as well..I know you think it's all down to mischaracterisation by the media but there's more to it than that.
"The RW media attack the Labour party at any time"
True enough, so give them as little ammunition as possible, the most the RW media has come up with recently is bottleofbeergate. Is seems to me that in trying to open up a fissure in the Labour Party that you are in danger of doing the RW media's job for them but that fissure has become a chasm that the media is struggling to bridge right now due to the strategy pursued by Starmer.
But beyond the individuals involved, it is rather worrying when the views of Stop the War chime so closely with those of Tucker Carlson's on Fox News. It opens up a territory where the far right and the far left can find agreement and therein lies danger.
For those reasons I am now much more of a centrist than I once was. The Tories have vacated the centre ground in recent years and I'm more than happy if Labour manages to occupy that territory. They don't stand a chance of forming a government if they don't.
Well, much of the rest of the country saw him as a plausible threat as well..I know you think it’s all down to mischaracterisation by the media but there’s more to it than that.
And why was that? Plausible threat like nationalised energy? We have that already in the UK through EDF.... Prior to 2016 90% of the population probably had never heard his name. You are right though it wasn't the only thing. The parliamentary Labour party, Labour hq, and the centerist/liberal/ moderate media fought him not just the right wing media. The Labour leader was basically savaged not just from the right but from the centre too. Given the centre would not accept leadership from the left why would the left accept it from the centre. And that's why it's a strategic folly for the left to back the centre - because you end up supplying votes/money and getting zip back. This is why Unite is where it is regards funding for the Labour party
True enough, so give them as little ammunition as possible, the most the RW media has come up with recently is bottleofbeergate. Is seems to me that in trying to open up a fissure in the Labour Party that you are in danger of doing the RW media’s job for them but that fissure has become a chasm that the media is struggling to bridge right now due to the strategy pursued by Starmer.
A fair point but the reality is 'ammunition' is anything to the left of Pinochet. The problem for Starmer is that this meltdown is already being eclipsed by Ukraine. Hence the 48hrs to war chat. We've seen it before.
For those reasons I am now much more of a centrist than I once was. The Tories have vacated the centre ground in recent years and I’m more than happy if Labour manages to occupy that territory. They don’t stand a chance of forming a government if they don’t.
They have vacated the centre socially and culturally but economic policy is in my opinion more complex. For example it is possible that Reeves' programme will be more austere and certainly not deliver badly needed structural reform than Johnson (to please the RW media) - although possibly not Sunak's.
I do think though that labours long term problems will continue. The electoral coalition is difficult to get back together due to demographic, cultural, economic and geographic challenges. Which to me is why mandleson's formula being followed by KS will not work. A much bolder vision is needed.
“The RW media attack the Labour party at any time”
so give them as little ammunition as possible
The right to remain silent and not incriminate themselves is a poor strategy for the leader of any political party to take.
Offer people a persuasive argument and the result is far more likely to be positive. This inability to do so presumably explains why despite weeks of daily negative media coverage for the Tories the Labour poll lead is mostly in single figures.
Obviously to offer a persuasive argument it requires the person to sincerely believe in something. And here lies the problem with Starmer, the only thing he appears to believe in is that he should be PM.
"Obviously to offer a persuasive argument it requires the person to sincerely believe in something"
Politics is a pragmatic affair, not a religion. Ideally politicians don't really run countries, countries run themselves and politicians manage them.
Starmer believes in the rule of law and that's what the country needs right now, competence and stability. It's the kind of vision I think much of the country wants to buy into and I think it's the territory the next general election will be fought on. Someone who shows to much passion and who harps on constantly about principles tends to put the greater part of the public off.
Every time Labour has gone down the idealistic path (Foot, Corbyn twice) it has ended up favouring the Tories and dragged most of the country into a worse position.
Starmer believes in the rule of law and that’s what the country needs right now, competence and stability.
Clearly that's driving this latest poll in the opposite direction. (Of course we do need that but it's not a vote winner on its own.)
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1493184335570157569?s=20&t=gL6mNZKyh0Fo1wJv5TxlsQ
If you want to get votes - you need defecting MPs, floating voters, good performances in PMQs, pro-War, neoliberal economics, market driven utilities, flags etc. All the good things the liberals love because that's what will swing the electorate.
Only it appears to not be working.
People want a positive political opposition - not just around the houses on the shambles of the yeti.
Every time Labour has gone down the idealistic path (Foot, Corbyn twice) it has ended up favouring the Tories and dragged most of the country into a worse position
Lol -you don't have anything without ideology to take the Tories to task on.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-brexit_uk_620a1851e4b03230246d43a2
And then insert whatever facepalm gifs you want...
That would be the 'are-you-surprised-face-palm.'
Offer people a persuasive argument and the result is far more likely to be positive. This inability to do so presumably explains why despite weeks of daily negative media coverage for the Tories the Labour poll lead is mostly in single figures.
Born out by the latest You-Gov poll. (as above) Labour down to 3pts. Starmer might be gone before Johnson at this rate. 😉
By May the Tories will be having street parties.
Starmer believes in the rule of law and that’s what the country needs right now
Hang on when did the rule of law break down? I've been longing for the great people's revolution for 30 years and you're telling me I missed it? Or perhaps your just talking bollocks, as usual?
The polls reflect the current shenanigans in Downing Street, not Starmers policy on Ukraine or anything else.
They certainly don't reflect the situation in the country in a couple of years time. Economic woes will dominate the agenda not culture wars.
The polls reflect the current shenanigans in Downing Street, not Starmers policy on Ukraine or anything else.
Correct. So the current polls don't in anyway acknowledge that the Labour leader has contributed anything useful to the Tories downfall.
They did it all themselves, and now as predicted it's wearing off - leaving Starmer where exactly? I mean it's not as if he hasn't tried to court the right.
I’ve been longing for the great people’s revolution for 30 years
Clearly, though letting off steam on here to depress the rest of us must be some compensation? I can't see Sir Keir setting fire to shopping trolleys, it's true. Whilst we do have a rule of law in this country it's being pushed with dodgy award of contracts, appointments to public bodies, restriction on voting rights etc etc etc. There'd probably have been fewer taking the piss parties in No.10 had Starmer been PM, though we'll never know.
On rejoining the EU, I'd love this to happen but it ain't going to happen in the next five or ten years so no need to have a destructive argument about it, I'm guessing would be the political judgement right now. Get these clowns out of office, get the other side of the bad times we're about to go into, and the wind could be blowing in a different direction. But not whilst the tories are in power.
Get these clowns out of office ...But not whilst the tories are in power.
Yet again.
How is this actually happening? In what way - according to the latest poll is it working out? I mean we've just had the biggest political upset in decades - and the defacto approach of leave your enemy to make their own mistake appears to be failing.
Could it possibly be because he's not inspiring anyone that there is an alternative? I think so.
I think so
Tantalising...
On rejoining the EU, I’d love this to happen but it ain’t going to happen in the next five or ten years so no need to have a destructive argument about it,
Did you not read the link? That is not what Starmer said. According to him there is no chance ever :
The Labour leader insisted there is no chance of the UK ever becoming a member of the bloc in the future during a visit to Newcastle.
Obviously that was what he said today in Newcastle who knows what he will say tomorrow at a different location, after all it is a fairly well established fact that he is both a liar and a fraud.
Clearly that’s driving this latest poll in the opposite direction.
I thought that yesterday's Opinium poll which gave Labour only a 3% lead might have been a bit of a rogue poll but apparently not if a YouGov poll today gives the same identical figures.
The Tories must be finding it very reassuring to see how little Labour appears to be benefiting from their self-inflicted woes.
Kier seems to be making the right noises, unlike the tories.
It's just a shame the lib dems, as 3rd biggest party are often denied any kind of platform in the UK media.
EDIT - in fact the lib dems are, it's just the usual protagonists ignoring it and perpetuating the two party system that we have to choose between labour and Conservative.
he is both a liar and a fraud
Jesus, even when he backs the policy you support you're hyperbolically negative about him.
I thought that yesterday’s Opinium poll which gave Labour only a 3% lead might have been a bit of a rogue poll but apparently not if a YouGov poll today gives the same identical figures.
Has Richard Burton been on the telly recently?
Diane's "stop the war" support can't have had that much traction
even when he backs the policy you support.....
Precisely. No one knows what he will be claiming that he supports in a week's time. Why should anyone believe what he is saying today?
His own website is full of stuff which he claims to believe in but he has actually argued against. Including praising Jeremy Corbyn and his 10 pledges.
EG :
We must stand shoulder to shoulder with trade unions.
Local Party members should select their candidates for every election. The NEC should not impose candidates on local parties.
People were inspired in their thousands by Jeremy Corbyn to join Labour, and we must not lose that idealism and radicalism.
Those are all things which Starmer claims on his website he supports. This is clearly not true, he is very obviously lying. He is a fraud.
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/reformandunite/
"They did it all themselves, and now as predicted it’s wearing off – leaving Starmer where exactly? I mean it’s not as if he hasn’t tried to court the right"
Not sure what Starmer should have been doing these last few weeks, I can't imagine what policy initiative or stunt would have managed to grab the headlines or galvanised the public's imagination during the current shenanigans?
We're you expecting the polling gap we saw a couple of weeks back to be maintained? Those numbers were a knee jerk reaction to an extraordinary situation.
“Then, gentlemen,” said Napoleon, “let us wait a little; when your enemy is executing a false movement, never interrupt him.”
King of the World, smirking and enjoying the fact that his Saville slur has worked…
https://twitter.com/itvnewspolitics/status/1493202353234788352?s=21
…that it was amplified as much by the left, as the right, must give him extra satisfaction.
Job done.
that it was amplified as much by the left, as the right, must give him extra satisfaction.
Who from the left amplified it? I heard many on the left protesting about it if that’s what you mean? If it is then his own MPs amplified it too. 🤷♀️
I heard many on the left protesting about it if that’s what you mean?
I get the impression that's not what Kelvin meant.
Although you are right to be confused by his comment. The Morning Star, which is widely seen as rather left-wing, had an extraordinarily long editorial denouncing Johnson's attempts to smear Starmer over Savile.
They quite rightly described it as a
diversionary tactic and helpfully reminded their readers Johnson's previous claim that “prosecuting child abuse cases was money spaffed up a wall".
They also pointed out :
Savile, the notorious Tory-supported paedophile, intimate of Margaret Thatcher and a man whose status as a TV celebrity and wide-ranging social connections seemed to confer immunity against prosecution, became the subject of a serious police investigation only in 2009. But he died in 2011.
We’re you expecting the polling gap we saw a couple of weeks back to be maintained? Those numbers were a knee jerk reaction to an extraordinary situation.
But he had to drive home the advantage and at least sustain it for a period. But instead he started attacking the left and demonstrating that the policy he was willing to stake the 2019 election on was actually a waste of time. Did he really believe in a 'peoples' (sic) vote' or did he do it to undermine Corbyn? Who knows. The latter would suggest a real political operator, so probably the former.
A phrase that used to be popular applies now "Any other leader would be 20 points ahead"
Great lawyer, mince politician.
Boris 'pedo' slur against Starmer (in session) was a shocking new low, even for the conservatives. Just when you thought they couldn't punch any lower.
buckle your belts boys.
Idiotic comment quite frankly. Corbyn is doing what he’s always done, which is campaign for peace and social justice.
Pass the koolaid comrade
Pass the koolaid comrade
You need some to make a useful and valued contribution?
I get the impression that’s not what Kelvin meant.
You’re quite right. While denouncing Johnson’s slur does amplify it (his Vote Leave time has honed his use of dishonest lines to control the narrative, for sure), that wasn’t what I was referring to. I was referring to those on the far left happy to join in making the slur stick to Starmer. Social Media was awash with it. Skwawkbox, Galloway, the usual best avoided commentators and hangers on. But if you want to keep it to this thread, Scotroutes shared a very disappointing piece by Craig Murray. All the same sort of thing, implying a connection between the Savile case and Starmer, and an “establishment closing ranks” because people across the political spectrum were calling out Johnson’s slur, or at least refusing to repeat it.
I was referring to those on the far left
No you weren't. You referred to "the left" as in : "it was amplified as much by the left, as the right".
You are now trying to backtrack because you know it is nonsense with "I meant the far left".
And since when has the Morning Star not been far left?
Or for that matter since when has Craig Murrey been far left? He seems to me to be some sort of maverick LibDem/Scottish Nationalist, I wasn't aware that he speaks on behalf of the far left.
Sigh - of course not everyone on the left joined in with Johnson’s slur, and nor did everyone on the right as it happens. I didn’t say or mean to imply that everyone on the left joined in. Very few did. Most did not. Citing sources that didn’t does not mean that none did. You are not a robot. And I didn’t say that Murray was far left either.
