Whether legal or not, plenty of NATO countries refused to get involved in the initial invasion in 2003.
I don't know about "plenty" but perhaps you don't remember the huge tensions France's opposition to invasion caused. France has a long history of taking an arm's length attitude towards NATO and its US dominance, including long periods outside its command structure.
If Starmer wants to project a strong image of total commitment to NATO emulating France probably isn't a good idea, neither is talk of a "Prevention of Military Intervention Act”.
The problem with Starmer is that he is a liar, a fraud, and a hypocrite, what he claims to believe depends on who his audience is.
The only reason he gets away with it is because another self-serving liar is currently Prime Minister and there is no focus on him. Although Johnson at least has the decency not to claim that he is anything other than a Tory.
You confusing two separate issues by looking at this all backwards. NATO does not exist to help form invasion forces, it is about mutual defence, and resisting military expansion.
Yeah sure it is, just me and Starmer who are confused
Starmer seems very clear on this one (unusually for him as leader). Commitment to NATO, and its primary role in resisting military expansion from what is now the Russian Federation, is and should be Labour policy. That isn’t at odds with a policy opposing uninvited military intervention. Stop The War need to be more than just against Western military invasions, they need to call out Russian military threats, and accept that mutual protection support is sadly required in the countries Russia is threatening.
they need to call out Russian military threats
Well that made me chuckle! 🙂
Stop the War Coalition exists to galvanise public opinion and put pressure on Parliament not to engage in wars and military adventures.
Quite why you think they have a role to play in influencing Russian foreign policy I have no idea.
Precisely my point. And why Starmer had to speak out. If Stop The War, and particularly MPs claiming to speak for them that used to head up the Labour Party, are putting the blame on NATO for Russia threatening Eastern European countries, than Starmer had to speak up. How could he have stayed silent?
They’re only against advancing forces if they are Western forces.
Is what I said. That’s fine if that’s all they are interested in. Focus can be useful for a campaigning organisation, even if it looks hypocritical to the public. Anyone hoping to be UK PM needs have much broader aims though.
Starmer had to speak out. If Stop The War, and particularly MPs claiming to speak for them that used to head up the Labour Party, are putting the blame on NATO for Russia threatening Eastern European countries, than Starmer had to speak up. How could he have stayed silent?
So is he going to extend his criticism to the French and German governments for recognising the need to address Russia's security concerns?
Or is he going to restrict his criticism to the soft Daily Mail approved target of Stop the War Coalition?
So is he going to extend his criticism to the French and German governments for recognising the need to address Russia’s security concerns?
Or is he going to restrict his criticism to the soft Daily Mail approved target of Stop the War Coalition?
France and Germany are part of NATO, and are supporting Eastern European countries. Why would Starmer be criticising them for their diplomatic efforts?
Importantly, Stop The War have MPs speaking for them that used to have the two biggest Labour front bench roles. That means Starmer has to either respond, or Labour will be seen to be supporting them. Everyone can see that. Only you pretend otherwise. He doesn’t have the option of not criticising Stop The War over this, he had to speak up, because Corbyn and Abbot were in recent times the public face of the party he now leads.
Putins useful idiots playing a blinder again, I see 😂
Everyone can see that. Only you pretend otherwise. He doesn’t have the option of not criticising Stop The War over this
There is nothing quite like exaggerating the correctness and importance of your own opinion than claiming that everyone agrees you.
I think it is probably best not to challenge your statements on behalf of everyone any further 👍
Putins useful idiots playing a blinder again, I see 😂
Hey, they were Saddam Hussein's useful idiots too binners!
The latest opinion poll has the Labour lead back in single figures :
Lab 41% (+1)
Con 33% (+1)
Lib Dem 9% (-1)
Green 6% (nc)
SNP 4% (nc)
Others 7%
https://www.techneuk.com/tracker/
Not a bad result for the Tories considering all the negative news of the last couple of months. With the next GE still a couple of years away they still have plenty of scope to pull back after the importance of partygate eventually fizzles out.
Unless of course Labour provides an effective, inspiring, and believable alternative, before then.
Hey, they were Saddam Hussein’s useful idiots too binners!
Well if you listen to Seamas Milne apparently Stalin was simply misunderstood and wasn’t actually a bad bloke
What are you doing listening to Seamas Milne binners?
Or is it perhaps more of a case of reading the Daily Mail?
"With the next GE still a couple of years away they still have plenty of scope to pull back after the importance of partygate eventually fizzles out."
Pull back what? If you're suggesting that in two years time the sting will have been taken out of partygate then you're probably right but by then cost of living concerns, corruption and Brexit woes will be hitting the public hard.
Partygate hurt our feelings, the other s*** is really going to hurt our pockets. It'll be a different conversation by then.
What are you doing listening to Seamas Milne binners?
He’s a Guardian reader. Milne was a Guardian writer. Join the dots.
but by then cost of living concerns, corruption and Brexit woes will be hitting the public hard.
Let's hope so eh? Let's hope things get really bad. Fingers crossed.
I can't imagine how else Labour can win.
Let’s hope things get really bad.
Here we go… no one is “hoping” or wanting things to get bad, they unfortunately are doing so… largely as a result of the Brexit you wanted and the people you helped put in power.
He’s a Guardian reader. Milne was a Guardian writer. Join the dots.
A Joseph Stalin fan wrote for the Guardian????? Wow!
Still, that should make it very easy indeed for binners to provide links showing Milne claiming that, quote,"Stalin was simply misunderstood and wasn’t actually a bad bloke"
Yes, Milne wrote for years for the Guardian, back when I used to read it regularly. And, yes, one of his things was saying that the effects of and motivations behind Stalin’s policies were overblown, and not enough is made of the good he did. You know “not everyone executed or in forced Labour camps were political prisoners, look at the positives”… that kind of stuff. Fun bloke.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane… the boring and uninspiring Starmer was getting depressing for me again, after a few weeks of being on good form, I must admit. Being reminded that he doesn’t have Milne and Murray at the heart of the Labour team has cheered me up a bit, maybe even given me a bit of hope that he can bring more of the public onside.
Right… all this talk about Stop The War makes he want to go and listen to some Brian Eno. There are lots of good dedicated people who are part of the Coalition, and they have the best intentions, in my opinion. And have often been proven correct by history. It’s not heresy to criticise them when it comes to Putin’s expansionist intents though.
In which year did Stop The War come into being?
1938?
Starmer had to speak up
The only reason starmer is talking bollocks about nato and STWC is that he wants to show the establishment war mongers and arms dealers that he’s no threat to them. He couldn’t give a shit about Ukraine or Russia.
The only reason starmer is talking bollocks about nato and STWC is that he wants to show the establishment war mongers and arms dealers that he’s no threat to them. He couldn’t give a shit about Ukraine or Russia
Bang on the cash. For some reason UK liberals and centerists get rock hard for a foreign war fought by other people's kids. Everytime the same revolting spectacle, everytime 'the adults in the room' clamour. A disappointing but unsurprising stance from the least imaginative Labour leader in my nearly 4 decades on this earth.
The only possible positive is that when he loses to Sunak (or whoever it is) that's the end of the road for Labour party centerism. I have my doubts though.
So just to clarify:
We should all cheer on Putin as he invades Ukraine because it’s one in the eye for the ****ing Americans (booooo, hiss IRAQ!!!), NATO, the EU and those bastard Labour centrists, and Just proves that St Corbyn, Dianne and their mates on Russia Today were right about absolutely everything, as always?
Does that pretty much cover it?
(booooo, hiss IRAQ!!!)
Ah, I see from your amusing ridicule that you were an Iraq War supporter binners. I can't say that surprises me.
Did you know that Starmer was opposed to the War and that he said it was :
“not lawful under international law because there was no UN resolution expressly authorising it”
Btw I'm still waiting for your link to the Guardian articles where, according to you, Seamas Milne says, quote: "Stalin was simply misunderstood and wasn’t actually a bad bloke". It should make interesting reading.
We should all cheer on Putin as he invades Ukraine
FFS not joining in with the whole ‘come and have a go if you think your hard enough’ rubbish is a far cry from cheering on Putin. Whether you like it or not half of the Ukraine see themselves as Russian, the other half don’t. If the Americans hadn’t got themselves involved in something they couldn’t control none of this would be happening now.
Have you forgotten how to use google? If you just stick in ‘Seamas Milne - Stalinist’ it’ll bring you up a number of options. It’s no big secrets. He’s always been very open about his admiration for Stalin, like many of the privately educated millionaire socialists he associates with in Islington
Ah, I see from your amusing ridicule that you were an Iraq War supporter binners. I can’t say that surprises me
I was totally opposed to the Iraq war but whether Blair supported it or not wouldn’t have made the slightest difference to whether it went ahead or not, and the way everything he did is viewed through the prism of it is just typical of the infantile sixth form level view of the world that characterises ‘the left’
Corbyn and Abbots comments about Ukraine and Russia are typically laughable. Why anyone gives any credibility to these morons is utterly beyond me
Whether you like it or not half of the Ukraine see themselves as Russian, the other half don’t
There’s a load of British ex-pats live in Spain and the South of France, maybe we should take that as licence to invade them?
I love the absolutely enormous hypocrisy of ‘the left’. The Americans invading Iraq? The worst thing in the history of the world EVER! The Russians invading Ukraine? Absolutely fine. Move along now. Nothing to see here.
The Russians invading Ukraine? Absolutely fine
The Russians aren’t going to invade Ukraine. And your comparison with Iraq is stupid. If Ukraine was like Iraq Kyiv would already be in flames.
Give it a week
They regularly invade. They didn’t stop in 2014. The only question is whether there will be a much larger invasion in the near future. I agree that’s unlikely, but they’re testing other nations to work out whether they can get away with it or not. It’s far more likely that they’ll seek to replace regional administrations with their own choice of leaders, with military backing… and Ukraine will get steadily smaller over the next decade or so.
Anyway, if an ex Labour leader as part of his role in Stop The War says what Dazh says, ie that ongoing or increasing conflict in Ukraine is down to NATO or the US, and that we shouldn’t be offering support… well, his successor has to speak out. Putin will push West if we signal that we’re going to leave Eastern European countries to sink or swim without our support.
He’s always been very open about his admiration for Stalin
So where are all these Guardian articles where Milne, according to you, said that "Stalin was simply misunderstood and wasn’t actually a bad bloke”, since you claim that he is very open about his admiration?
It really shouldn't be very difficult for you to find.
And I am not interested in articles where he is accused of being a Stalinist, that is not what you said, so that link of yours is completely meaningless.
I can only assume that if you are incapable of providing a link where Milne openly admires Stalin, and says he was simply misunderstood and wasn't actually a bad bloke, it's because it is complete bollocks that you made up.
And after all what would be the likelihood of the Guardian Newspaper employing someone with those alleged views as associate editor? So no great surprise.
I was totally opposed to the Iraq war
Yes of course you were. Ridiculing opposition to the Iraq War is precisely what can be expected from someone who who was "totally opposed" to it.
That makes perfect sense in the binners world of logic.
The Russians aren’t going to invade Ukraine.
They already have
Its already killed 1000s of Ukrainians since 2014
Putin will push West if we signal that we’re going to leave Eastern European countries to sink or swim without our support
You’re not allowed to say that though, because everything is apparently the fault of Western Imperialism if you listen to the usual hopelessly naive Putin stooges
hopelessly naive
Says the man who expects people to believe bollocks that he can't backup.
that ongoing or increasing conflict in Ukraine is down to NATO or the US
Did I say that? It’s a simple fact that many/most of the people in the east of Ukraine want to be Russian. Many in the west of Ukraine want to be more western. It’s also undeniable that the US exploited the latter to push it’s influence eastwards. There are two sides to this, and as usual a whole population stuck in the middle who don’t care one way or the other.
who don’t care one way or the other
You think the people of Ukraine don’t care whether they are invaded or not? That they don’t want to stay outside the RF? Even many of those with Russian roots want to stay separate from the RF, many are there for just that very reason. Yes there are people who want to be within the RF, and some are armed by Russia and part of the ongoing conflict.
Maybe those 140,000 Russian troops are waiting for Comrade Jeremy to turn up and show them how to best plant runner beans in the new allotments they’re there to establish?
You think the people of Ukraine don’t care whether they are invaded or not?
No what I meant was that they don’t care about the geo-political willy-waving of putin and Biden. Clearly they don’t want to be invaded, but I bet they’re not as hysterical about it as the western media and politicians using it to support their own petty egos and ambitions.
And do you think the risk of invasion would be gone if western countries refused to support Ukraine and left them to deal with Russia alone?
waiting for Comrade Jeremy to turn up and show them how to best plant runner beans in the new allotments they’re there to establish?
Jeezus your bizarre obsession with Corbyn really has got a complete grip over you, hasn't it?
At every conceivable opportunity you have to bring up Corbyn. Get over it ffs
Who brought up Stop The War? Not Binners. How was that going to avoid mention of Corbyn? Not his fault this time. Perhaps we can add “Corbyn” to the swear filter.
I think it was Starmer who bought up STWC, according to news reports. This thread is about Starmer.
That doesn't necessarily mean that binners is automatically obliged to go into one of his rants about Corbyn being a bearded allotment dweller.
As far as I am aware no one else has felt the need to talk about Corbyn
