And besides, labour need a female leader
I think that would be a very good move.
whoever it is.
You've lost me there.
It was 2016 when I did this comrade. i reckon thats an iPhone 6s so this is the proper olden days
And yet you still know how make me feel special.
You’ve lost me there.
Actually I should correct myself. If not Rayner then the only other candidate who I can think could win an election is Miliband. Assuming of course he can keep the idiots who advised him in 2010 at arms length and continues on his current focus and approach. There's a lot of baggage to get rid of though from his history, just like Burnham.
just like Burnham.
If he can sort out the buses and trams prices like London, and builds the cycle lanes and continues to make LTN, then I'll carry on voting for him TBH
A post I can agree with 100% Dazh. If Miliband V1 had never been leader, Miliband V2 would be the obvious choice to replace Starmer ASAP. He may still be one of the best options.
Perhaps Rayner as leader, Miliband as shadow chancellor. They both need to listen to Lewis on political reform though. Lammy as Home Secretary. Starmer can lick his wounds and ponder on what went wrong with a spell as shadow justice secretary. That all (or something else) needs to happen in the next 18 months though. Waiting ‘till after the next election will result in 13+ years in opposition. The Tories know how do get Johnson a win at the next election against Starmer, and by the following election they’ll be ready to flip leaders just after the honeymoon period for Starmer’s successor is over. The leadership MUST be changed before THIS coming election.
Sorry for the blunt language
Yuk Daz, dont use it next time and there'll be no need to apologise.
Milliband? Someone remind me what the definition of madness is?
Someone remind me what the definition of madness is?
Sticking with something that isn’t working and you know full well isn’t going to work?
Miliband would find it very hard, because of how useless he was a leader before. I couldn’t vote for Labour under him back then for example. But he’s impressed in the shadow cabinet this time around though.
Bury North Labour -is that what the Westminsterites want to do?
Yuk Daz, dont use it next time and there’ll be no need to apologise.
The choice of language was deliberate to demonstrate what I think of the views of the average tory member. I have no doubt they really think that so have no problem spelling it out.
Centrist liberal England isn’t a myth, it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post.
This explains the success of the current government how exactly?
The opposition party installing a leader that can be ripped apart by right wing media and concerted campaigns through social media perhaps? Why would soft tories who are needed to swing the vote, vote for Labour?
No it isn’t, it is where the political game is played by the Westminster bubble, not where it could be played if they wanted to appeal to a wider audience.
The party's who aren't tory already appeal to a wider audience, and get a bigger share of the vote, in terms of actual numbers, but that's not how this works currently.
Your intense dislike of anyone to the left of Tony Blair is well-established El-bent.
That's quite an assumption, I just recognise what its going to take to wrestle political power away from the tories, and simply saying socialism is the answer is not going to work currently, as demonstrated to varying degrees from 2015-2019. I know some haven't learnt that lesson because its their core belief system, And I know people don't like to think, and certainly don't like their beliefs challenged, but if those people can't even moderately adapt to current circumstance, then eject them over the side.
But how about you now provide your critique of the current Labour leadership?
I already have, many, many, pages back thanks. I'm sure you're anal enough to find it.
Left wing policies are popular with the electorate.
Well stone the crows, a news flash.
That's not a good reason to use it.
That’s not a good reason to use it.
Hang on so because I think tory members have no problem using the word 'p***' I'm not allowed to say so? I'm using it in a non-offensive context to illustrate the bigotry of people who do use it in that way.
Anyway, back to Starmer. Apparently he's gutted he tested positive or covid. Seems like Miliband and - I hate to say - Reeves seemed to do perfectly well in his place. If I were him I'd be gutted too 😄.
El-bent ego unbounded
If you can't think of another way to get that point across then fair enough Daz. If you can then do.
If I heard someone using that word in public I'd say something. Unless she was bigger than me 😂
But how about you now provide your critique of the current Labour leadership?
I already have, many, many, pages back thanks. I’m sure you’re anal enough to find it.
If repeating yourself presents a problem for you El-bent why do come on here constantly repeating the same unchanging rhetoric?
Or do feel that this is the first time that you have shared your opinions on what you perceive to be the "Labour left" ?
And many, many, many pages back sounds like a long time ago, isn't politics constantly changing and developing?
I am sure that your opinions of Starmer's detractors are now well understood, how about you express your views on how well Starmer is leading the Labour Party?
How has he been doing since "many many many pages ago"?
If it helps I will remind you of some of the announcements Starmer has made in the last two or three months. Firstly Geronimo the Alpaca should be destroyed, the next James Bond should be a woman, and more recently, an MP getting stabbed to death is a tragedy.
I think that's it?
If I heard someone using that word in public I’d say something.
As always, context is everything. Do you get upset when black men use the word n*****? Anyway we're way off topic.
I think that’s it?
Didn't he announce some stuff at conference? I'm trying hard to remember but honestly I'm struggling without a google search. I do however remember him being made to look like an idiot on the subject of a wealth tax by a Sky news reporter. I also remember him blanking a young party activist asking him about the green new deal. Most recently I saw him smirking when asked about giving lefties 'a good kicking' not long after an MP was murdered. There have been a few memorable moments, but none of them having a go at the tories.
Lol Daz comparing yourself to black people reclaiming racist language LOL. Come on man a white person using racist terms to give their posts on a cycling forum a bit more oomph is lame as ****.
FFS no I’m not comparing myself to black men I’m pointing out that when using a word, especially offensive ones, context and meaning are the only things that matter.
Sticking with something that isn’t working and you know full well isn’t going to work?
Good point @kelvin. I wouldn't lose sleep if he left but I just think it's fair that if you win a leadership election you get to fight a G.E.
A stronger and more visible front bench team around Starmer including Milliband would be a good thing.
....is lame as ****.
So is the claim that all temperature Daz washes whitest ever in hot, warm and cool water.
Have a word with yourself Daz.
I wouldn’t lose sleep if he left but I just think it’s fair that if you win a leadership election you get to fight a G.E.
Why? Genuinely, if he can’t win the next general election (find me anyone who thinks he can … and I mean someone who genuinely believes he can, not just an MP or other Labour politician showing solidarity with their dull lack lustre leader) why be “fair” to him and miss a shot at pushing Johnson and co onto the opposition benches? Would the Conservatives let him drag on? Were they fair to IDS (who was, and still is, very popular with Conservative members) when it was clear that he couldn’t connect with the wider electorate?
We can't be sure til he's had a chance.
We can't be sure til he's had a chance & besides that I don't think a different leader will make a difference.
I can be sure, he has been the leader for more than long enough to know a) he is not good at it and won't be the best option if Labour actually want to win an election and b) his view of how the country should be changed for the better is seriously lacking.
Of course a different leader would make a difference, did you notice the difference between May and Johnson? however the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has.
however the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has
Besides that the best candidates would either a) not even get the support of the PLP or b) get monstered by the press.
I don't think it's deliberate but Starmer being shit right up to election time and then being fantastic* might just work.
*An amazing manifesto and some properly straight talking about the Tories.
Actually I'd take Starmer being shit right up to election time and Clive Lewis taking over with an amazing manifesto and...
But I don't think that is even a remote possibility.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1453458765064376328?t=1qy-i_3-HSycAkMHRNRz1w&s=19
This is what Labour is up against despite 11 years of Tory Austerity. There are still seen as bad for the economy.
Because the majority of people don't have a ****ing clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold - balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
Good to see the they now see the Tories as the higher tax party though as that was surely the other way round previously wasn't it?
Thats exactly my point, the majority don't have a clue. It just shows what a moutain Labour have to climb. It's so easy to ridicule Labours spending by comparing it to personal cashflow, people understand it that way despite it being utter nonsense.
Most people will see a headline or a soundbite and assume this recent budget to be a good thing. Throw the peasants some scraps to keep them happy is the Tory way and it works. So depressing.
This is what Labour is up against despite 11 years of Tory Austerity. There are still seen as bad for the economy.
If you're interested, there's a whole genre of work and academic papers on a Bush Jr era remark made by a political journalist (Ron Suskind) based around what's know as "Reality-based community" . Long story short; it's a derisive term for folks on the left who react in a logical way to "facts". When folks on the right are saying things that are clearly not based in reality although over time, because they're in power their version of reality becomes the accepted norm, and opposition parties then react against these new "facts" rather than create their own. The quote is
The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' [...] 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'.
We're seeing this now in UK politics and these polls show this, it's an absolute fact that national debt to GDP has grown since the 2010's and the Cameron govt takes power, and yet their "reality" of that is that they still calling themselves the party of fiscal responsibility when they haven't been that for a decade or more...and Labour react to this "facts" by having costed manifestos and cost cutting programmes and so on. when in reality Sunak just creates more newer reality The Express headline today is "Tax Cuts for Everyone" total made up horseshit...
see also Truthiness and Alternative facts
Until the left create a reality themselves that is more popular, that folks want to be part of, this will go on...this is how we live now.
Until the left create a reality themselves that is more popular, that folks want to be part of, this will go on…this is how we live now.
There was a bloke on the radio earlier. He's a single parent with a 19 year old pregnant daughter living in a dingy flat on UC who's just lost 20 quid a week, but it's ok because he works in construction and has seen his pay go up (thanks to brexit presumably although he didn't say that) so he can support her. He said the govt deserve 'credit where it's due' for all the money they've spent during the pandemic and it's very generous of them not to raise taxes to recoup that money.
People haven't just swallowed the national credit card rubbish, they don't even think it's the government's job to respond to the pandemic, let alone provide a functioning economy and safety net for the poor. We're in survival of the fittest territory, and if labour can't communicate an effective alternative to that then they should disband and get out of politics.
It's not just the politicians that "create a new reality" though, it requires voices notionally outside the party to be part of the conceit... that is... column writers and broadcast "journalists". How on earth do Labour deal with that?
How on earth do Labour deal with that?
They could probably start by not slagging off the journalists and news channels who are on their side. This is supposedly a mostly lef/soft-left/liberal place yet how many times do we see the likes of Owen Jones or Novara media dismissed and derided as sixth form trots?
Novara are worse than that.
Novara are worse than that.
I rest my case.
Because the majority of people don’t have a **** clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold – balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
If the majority don't have a clue about the economy then the task for the Tories shouldn't be any easier.
Fortunately for them the Tories were helped massive 11 years ago, with the balancing the books and all that BS, by the LibDems who sung from the same hymn sheet as the Tories and enthusiastically embraced austerity and deficit reduction.
When that was coupled with a Labour Party incapable of defending itself and mounting a counter attack (remember that as soon as Gordon Brown became PM he invited Thatcher to Downing Street to send the clear message that New Labour would remain thatcherite under his leadership) it is easy to understand why some voters were easily convinced.
Remember also that Labour fully supported the deficit being cleared and the arguments in favour of that. The only difference between Labour and the Tories and LibDems was that the Tories and LibDems argued it should be completed within the period of 5 years, Labour suggested doing it over 10 years. I suspect that some voters thought that if it was so important it should be done sooner rather than later.
....the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has.
And that goes to the very root of the problem with the Labour Party, yet few seem to recognise its significance.
The Labour Party, despite the massive hemorrhaging of members under the present leadership, still remains one of the very largest political parties in Europe, indeed even globally it is one of the larger political parties.
It is still not that short of half a million members. Any political party that size should be spoilt for choice when it comes to potential leaders.
The fact that people seriously struggle to think of any potentially effective leader exposes how the party has sunk into a morass of ineptitude.
Labour's problems are both ideological and structural. One legacy of New Labour control freakery is a party that produces political clones and is of little threat to the leadership.
There was one short-lived crisis between 2015-19 when due to taking their eye off the ball they lost control and there was a grassroots rebellion. The Labour establishment mounted a massive unprecedented assault onto the new leadership until control was re-established.
The current leadership is now carrying out mopping up operations to guarantee that it never happens again and political monolith returns.
Expect to find talent and choice in a large vibrant democratic party. Don't expect to find it in a quasi-stalinist anti-democratic party which purges dissent and sucks the morale of anyone who attempts to make a difference.
This is supposedly a mostly lef/soft-left/liberal place
Supposedly.
the Tories and LibDems argued it should be completed within the period of 5 years, Labour suggested doing it over 10 years. I suspect that some voters thought that if it was so important it should be done sooner rather than later.
And how long did it take? That's the thing, the Tories don't even "succeed" on their own terms and are still trusted more with the economy. When they set up their own goalposts, and miss spectacularly, the public still trust them.
🤷🏻
And how long did it take?
I don't think they ever managed it? Covid gave them a handy excuse to continue fail.
And how long did it take? That’s the thing, the Tories don’t even “succeed” on their own terms and are still trusted more with the economy. When they set up their own goalposts, and miss spectacularly, the public still trust them.
Absolutely. That's because the Labour Party concedes the goal every time.
How on earth do Labour deal with that?
You can't. the media that isn't directly aligned with the right are in exactly the same place as opposition parties by trying to deal in facts, when parties like the Tories have expressly started to create their own.
Novara media dismissed and derided as sixth form trots?
In terms of reach, Novara are meaningless. I'm not suggesting that they're bad or they don't do useful things, but in terms of scale; no-one is reading what Novara has to say.
In terms of reach, Novara are meaningless.
Don't disagree. Maybe the labour party and it's supporters should be trying to extend that reach rather than slagging them off? I'm pretty sure a lot of tory MPs have no love of the Daily Heil, but do you see them slagging it off and calling their writers nazis and white supremacists?
I have never heard of Novara and never heard or read about anyone slagging them off.
As I don't live under a rock that suggests to me they are an irrelevance.
No of course not, but then the Mail is the UK third most popular paper, and can dictate the news agenda, and can make or break the career or life of just about anyone it wants...
Because the majority of people don’t have a **** clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold – balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
Absolutely and all we need is a few facts for Labour to bring on an economic attack on the Tories.
1) the Tories virtually never balance the books. Maybe once in 30 years. (I don't agree with balancing the books, it's a nonesense for which I've been debating years on here.) But Sunak was talking all this up at the conference.
So Labour have an opportunity here. They could've have made a move on the Tories never keeping their word to do this.
2) Tories: lie and change. Constantly on the economy. There is no plan. It's all over the shop. There are many open goals about the Economy.
3) We were almost in recession early 2020. Why on earth are we going to massively increase GDP now? Sunak is a dreamer. There is an opening up shock here as the slack is taken but this is not a booming country. We will head back into recession.
4) Brexit/Covid handling. On and on.
It really wouldn't be that hard to make some big attacks on Sunak. The Tories have started to understand it doesn't matter if you don't deliver - you just move on to the next vague idea.
Labour need to go back to the drawing board. They've got an easy line of attack. Start treating the electorate with intelligence, let them know what is possible and go for it.
I do feel Brits have been groomed to believe things can't possibly be any better. When the Tories fail, it's all about acceptance and excuses.
Enough of tinkering around this failed economic model the Tories have glued themselves too. It's doomed.
