Labour doing better generally would probably be a bad thing where I am, looks like in 2017 they took away some of the Lib Dem vote.
There are a bunch of posters who make it sound like they would rather the status quo if they can’t have a radical transformative agenda, which I don’t get.
All else being equal I'd prefer my shit sandwich on better quality bread but don't expect me to get excited about eating it.
There are a bunch of posters who make it sound like they would rather the status quo if they can’t have a radical transformative agenda, which I don’t get.
Without radical change, the status quo is what you get irrespective of the party in charge.
Without radical change, the status quo is what you get irrespective of the party in charge
This is nonsense, Johnson and his mates are dragging us way to the right. To say that Starmers Labour are just the same (which is what your hinting at) is just silly. He may not give the radical change you want but that is different to being the same.
Why do you assume they won’t do it?
Oh I don't know, the fact they're politicians, past experience, a record of massive unachievement, an inability and unwillingness to clearly define what they will do. Do you need me to go on? Politicians of all colours have a horrific record for doing the things they promise, Starmer being a very good example.
Johnson and his mates are dragging us way to the right.
Are they? Economically they're more to the left than the Blair govt. You certainly don't hearr Boris talking bollocks about balancing the books (not yet anyway).
Without radical change, the status quo is what you get irrespective of the party in charge.
This is one of the reasons that Starmer listed achievements under the last Labour government that were completely contrary to what the previous Conservative governments had done, and the Conservative opposition at the time were dead against. The status quo did change. Some if it was rolled back by the coalition, Conservative and Johnson governments that came after, but some of it is still the status quo now. A Labour government CAN change things for the better. I understand those that fear that it would not, but then I look at who will be left in charge of the country if Labour lost again, and my mind boggles that anyone wouldn't want to try putting Labour into power now instead. Including those of us that bridle at the very mention of New Labour [ DON'T MENTION THE WAR ] and never voted for it.
They were forced into that due to a pandemic, do you really belive they would have done it otherwise? Is increasing NI payments economically left?
If you don't trust all politicians regardless of party why bother getting so annoyed at Starmer? By your logic it doesn't matter what party or leader they will all lie and just do what they want.
This is nonsense, Johnson and his mates are dragging us way to the right.
I disagree. There's no substantive difference.
What are the policies announced by Starmer which shift politics to the left?
That speech today could have been delivered by Johnson or Cameron or Clegg or whoever.
Work. Patriotism. Education. Crime. Military. Green.
You also have the strange position where Tories can push through policies that would be hammered if they came from Labour. And you have Starmer, a career politician who's desperate to avoid ever being labelled as 'left' on any issue.
Economically they’re more to the left than the Blair govt
Only because they had no choice. I doubt V much they'd have spent so freely otherwise, do you?
You certainly don’t hearr Boris talking bollocks about balancing the books
No one cares if he does or not. Rishi Sunak on the other hand is taken very seriously by lots of folk in the Conservative party and he's been talking about it since last years...example
I will balance books despite Pandemic
By your logic it doesn’t matter what party or leader they will all lie and just do what they want.
It's not my logic, it's a time proven fact that politicians lie and do what they want. That's the nature and primary failing of representative democracy.
I disagree. There’s no substantive difference.
What are the policies announced by Starmer which shift politics to the left?
It's not all about policies though is it, the Tories don't have a policy to be corrupt but yet they are.
There’s no substantive difference.
I suggest you listen to the speech again. I think he did a very good job of explaining what the difference would be. Now, you might not trust him to deliver what he says, but it was clearly laid out, in many areas of policy and daily life, what Labour is proposing that is very different to what Johnson is doing.
but it was clearly laid out, in many areas of policy and daily life, what Labour is proposing that is very different to what Johnson is doing.
Care to list them cos I must have missed it. I heard about punishing criminals, building more windfarms, and a career advisor for every school student. Anything else?
I suggest you listen to the speech again.
Completely out of order Kelvin, reported.
..it was clearly laid out, in many areas of policy and daily life, what Labour is proposing that is very different to what Johnson is doing.
Help with home insulation.
Investment in green stuff.
Tougher sentences on rapists..or something.
Compulsory work experience.
Saving the union.
Could have been copy and pasted from a David Cameron speech.
Anyway, the ball is now firmly in the court of the centrists and rightwingers in the labour party. They need to do two things to prove their war on the left was worth it. First is win the next election, second is to do the things they always say they will once in power. I strongly suspect they'll fail on the first, and even if they do I'd put my house on them not doing the second. Fast forward 5-10 years and I'm almost certain we'll be here talking about missed opportunities and what a disappointment they are.
What do you lot want from him or any other politician? You don't like him or want him as leader we get that but now you are just nit picking. One question above was "what is the insulation made of?" Seriously how much detail do you want in a speech? According to danh they are all liars anyway so it would not matter who was in charge JC included as it would just end up being tory again no matter what. This thread is exasperating!
Danh you said they are all the same earlier so it doesn't matter if its left right or whoever in charge, they are all lying and in it for themselves.
I strongly suspect they’ll fail on the first
I think it would take a small miracle for Labour to be get into government at the next election. And a much larger miracle for them to do so without changing to a more engaging leader. This wasn't a bad speech though, was it? It was reaching out to the wider public though, there was little to no attempt to reach out to the "left" of the party. Call that part of a "war on the left" if you want, but it doesn't mean he isn't focused on trying to become PM... he clearly is... and I'd still love it if he managed it... but despite him delivering this speech better than I expected, I don't think he has what it takes to get there.
Old houses were not designed to be insulated to the gunnels. My house had cavity wall insulation- it was a disaster, we had to get it removed.
Doesn’t mean it can’t be done successfully. It just means that the current system where you have to get your insulation done by a registered company (who on the whole know 8/10 of sod all about what can go wrong), because that is the free market capitalist way.
A better system would be for the grants to be available to everyone but require them to be signed off by local authority building control (who tend to know a whole lot about what can go wrong and how to do it properly) but that is ideologically wrong because it is giving money to the public sector and even worse people who might make sure it is done right first time round.
Either way the costs would be the same (although you wouldn’t get the 30 year no quibbles, not worth the paper it is written on guarantee with building control)
Most of the registered companies I’ve seen don’t have a clue when it comes to anything more complicated than rolling out insulation in lofts and even then they are pretty clueless about maintaining air circulation. Last week saw a proposal which insulated part of the roof to 300mm but left all the ‘difficult bits’ completely uninsulated (about 30% of the roof).
I think it would take a small miracle for Labour to be get into government at the next election.
So let me make a prediction. When that happens, and assuming Starmer chips into Boris's majority in any significant way (because it couldn't possibly get worse, could it?), the usual suspects on here will be rejoicing in his supposed victory and how they've 'turned the corner'. Binners et al won't be saying 'but a loss is a loss', it'll all be how Starmer was proved right and how everything is better despite labour still not being in power. If you stand on a platform of winning at all costs, then you can't make excuses when you don't.
What do you lot want from him or any other politician?
Personally, I want a socialist politician who seeks to change society for the better.
Shouldn't be a big ask in a representative democracy.
FPTP isn’t a truly representative democracy. There are not enough people who call themselves “socialists” in enough seats to remove the Conservatives from government, and put a full blooded socialist into no10. This is the problem Labour face, they have to be a coalition of very different supporters, and voters, across the country, to be able to do anything, to change anything, to improve anything.
Dazh, if the Tories can form a government after next election, whoever is Labour leader should announce they are standing down immediately. It would be a loss, a failure, even if seats were gained. I’d be with you mocking anyone who described that as a win.
FPTP isn’t a truly representative democracy. There not enough people who call themselves “socialists” in enough seats to remove the Conservatives from government, and put a full blooded socialist into no10.
Which is why I support Welsh and Scottish independence.
So let me make a prediction. When that happens, and assuming Starmer chips into Boris’s majority in any significant way (because it couldn’t possibly get worse, could it?), the usual suspects on here will be rejoicing in his supposed victory and how they’ve ‘turned the corner’. Binners et al won’t be saying ‘but a loss is a loss’, it’ll all be how Starmer was proved right and how everything is better despite labour still not being in power.
I'm calling that, £10 it doesn't happen but you need to define the "usual suspects". More likely they'd all be calling him a useless twunt.
I'm only saying define as I cant see anyone that's a regular poster talking about Starmer in the same way the usual suspects were talking about Corbyn
Binners et al won’t be saying ‘but a loss is a loss’, it’ll all be how Starmer was proved right and how everything is better despite labour still not being in power
Are you out of your mind? There’s only one result that matters….Did you win? That’s it! End of story!
That’s what plenty of us have been saying for years
None of this ‘winning the argument’ bollocks of ‘increasing the share of the vote guff … blah, blah ****ing blah - that we’ve been hearing since 2017 from the sixth formers.
If you can’t deliver an election victory then jog on! As grandad should have done in 2017 instead of celebrating it, thus demonstrating that he never ever thought he could win (obviously!) and expected it to be ten times worse (didn’t we all?), and hanging around like a fart ina lift for years after his sell by date (his actual sell-by date being June 1975).
We won’t even bother mentioning the 2019 ‘winning the argument’ debacle
I don’t think we need to, do we?
So we are where we are. Cheers Grandad
By the time Starmer fights an election I reckon we’ll have a lot higher expectations than with the beardy messiah bumbling around in the bunker with the rest of he PFJ
Well, he’s just destined the Labour Party to perpetual opposition by getting on the Unionist side. Until Labour understand they’ll never win a majority of the vote and need to work in coalition, ignoring the 3rd biggest party in Westminster is not a winning formula. I guess they’ll remain the party of flat-caps and whippets because they’re irrelevant north of the border.
I couldn’t agree more. He should have left that well alone. God only knows what he expected to gain by getting stuck into the SNP.
He needs to be building bridges with them instead, because the only way to unseat the Tory’s is through a coalition
There’s only one result that matters….Did you win? That’s it! End of story!
So I presume you’ll back at some point in the next couple of years after the election to admit that rehashing 25 year old new labour tactics didn’t work? Or will you still be blaming Corbyn and lefty utopian 6th formers? There’s really no excuse now, it’s win or bust.
Depends if you think he’s just re-hashing Blairism.
I don’t, personally. And you think ‘rehashing Blairism’ is anything short of storming the barricades
Let’s be frank… neither you or I were the target audience today. My votes a given and you’ll vote Green or for some weirdo from the Socialist Workers Party to hand another win to the Tory’s, no matter what Starmer does, short of nationalising everything and parading the Royal Family in sack cloth through the streets of Todmorden
The greens probably won’t stand in Calderdale so doubt I’ll be voting for them. Then the question is can I vote for a party led by someone who dishonestly got me to vote for him to be leader? Probably not TBH, which is a shame cos I quite like labour’s candidate round our way.
So vote for them then. I thought Corbyn was an absolute bell end - on a political competency level he’s effectively a lefty Andrew Bridgen - but I technically voted for the absolute clown twice because my local Labour candidate is brilliant and any other vote would essentially be a Tory vote. So i’d rather hack my own ****ing arm off before I did that
Like most ‘loony lefties’ you could probably do with looking at the bigger picture and just consider the final outcome as the only thing that actually matters
I can live with pretty much anything other than a Tory majority so I vote accordingly
short of nationalising everything and parading the Royal Family in sack cloth through the streets of Todmorden
I’ll vote for that!
[ shut up Kelvin ]
[ I’ll be voting Labour ]
I’d definitely vote for it too
Binners at this point in time I don’t really think Starmer is much better than Boris. He’s a career politician who has proven (and admitted) that he’ll say anything and promise anything to win. That IMO is the central problem with our politics which has resulted in a deeply damaging culture war and clusterf***s like brexit. Why on earth would I vote for that?
And that would all be fine, but for the fact that if you genuinely think a Starmer government would look anything like what we’ve got at the moment then it’s quite possible that you’re clinically insane
Socialist Workers Party
As if. I spent most of my politico years arguing against the socialist worker idiots.
and parading the Royal Family in sack cloth through the streets of Todmorden
Got me wrong here too. The royal family are an irrelevance and not worth worrying about. In actual fact I quite like the queen, she reminds me of my granny who was born in the same year.
if you genuinely think a Starmer government would look anything like what we’ve got at the moment
There’s a simple answer to that. Wes Streeting, Lisa Nandy, Ian Murray etc. All intellectual giants on a par with Hancock, Williamson and Raab. A dishonest leader surrounded by idiots and funded by shadowy donors. Looks scarily familiar to me.
I think you’d have to get Richard Burgon involved to truly rival the intellectual firepower of the present cabinet
Like I said; if you think the former DPP is on a level with our present third rate Daily Telegraph columnist and Bullingdon Boy then you really need to develop a sense of perspective
You are aware that the Tory’s wake up every day and thank the lord for people like you and the Corbynite morons heckling Starmer today?
You’ve delivered them two election victories and seem hell bent on gift-wrapping them a third
He needs to be building bridges with them instead, because the only way to unseat the Tory’s is through a coalition
What would the SNP gain by being in coalition with Labour? They are effectually in charge of the country that they care about already. And what d'you think their price would be if somehow it came about that they actually started talking?
He’s a career politician
I think the definition of a career politician is some-one who goes straight from university into one of the major parties (after a PPE course preferably at one of the Russell Group Unis) becomes a bag carrier and researcher, stands at a un-winnable seat before a nice safe one and does nothing else...Yer man Starmer at least had a job that he was (by all accounts) pretty good at. I don't think he meets the criteria.
Personally, I want a socialist politician who seeks to change society for the better.
Shouldn’t be a big ask in a representative democracy.
If you haven't got one to vote for then become one and stand for election. You will then have a very clear idea of whether your constituency also wants a socialist politician. What is the vote split like currently where you live?
You’ve delivered them two election victories and seem hell bent on gift-wrapping them a third
Starmer will be responsible for that.
He's been gifted the opportunity to nail this government and has failed, even offering his support at key opportunities.
Don't ever forget his approach during the pandemic. Dire.
The press have left him alone, and he's had the backing of the Tory party individuals.
Look, we're probably about to enter recession: pre-pandemic (Nov 2019-Feb 2020) mostly negative or slowing GDP. Furlough is about to end. The usual Brexit supply issues, unemployment. Etc. The worst is yet to come.
Where is the economy going but down?
Let's see Starmer and Reeves trying to tackle the economics of it with their fiscal prudence plan.
https://twitter.com/StephanieKelton/status/1442179149582372871?s=19
The exact opposite of what we need.
The fact they didn't see this in their conference is beyond reproach. They made the assumption of business as usual. Starmer's speech was a huge missed opportunity to layout what is coming and what we needed to do.
On the other hand get ready because they will be ill-equiped when Johnson comes out on top and has to support the economy.
Centrist applause is about to get buried again. Sigh.
You are aware that the Tory’s wake up every day and thank the lord for people like you and the Corbynite morons heckling Starmer today?
You’ve delivered them two election victories and seem hell bent on gift-wrapping them a third
I saw Corbyn's own party heckling him in pmqs on twitter. Binners you have to see that the Labour centrists helped deliver the Tory govt in the last 2 elections. If you can't see that then you are 'clinically insane loony'.
Lovely language btw binbins! You really sound like someone who wants extra money spent on mental health.
It is a terrible shame that Starmer's entire political project can be brought down by a big brother contestant occasionally shouting incoherent stuff at a conference.
It's those pesky completely irrelevant but yet incredibly powerful and dangerous lefties again isn't it.
And yes, having large swathes of the party against the leader apparently wasn't relevant to the last two elections. What's changed?
