Why on earth would I vote for that?
Presumably because you're happy to see the Tories get in again? Better another 5 years of this extreme Tory government than a Starmer led less extreme Tory-lite government?
By all means have your principles and look for a party that will deliver what you want. But when it's time to put a tick in a box, your vote/actions, and those of people like you, will have much wider implications for the poor, the sick, those who need support, and if your quest for a perfect government ****s them over for another 5 or 10 years, I hope you can sleep at night.
It is a terrible shame that Starmer’s entire political project can be brought down by a big brother contestant occasionally shouting incoherent stuff at a conference.
That would be a shame if it happened...Didn't though, so the point's moot isn't it.
Tories in charge, Labour fighting like cats in a sack, and Starmer taking time out to slag the SNP - I’m looking forward to seeing the next polls on support for independence 🙂
Presumably because you’re happy to see the Tories get in again? Better another 5 years of this extreme Tory government than a Starmer led less extreme Tory-lite government?
Yeah I don't personally want a less extreme Tory government.
That just puts us back to Cameron's government in effect.
That just puts us back to Cameron’s government in effect.
Whilst I'd love a much more radical government, I'd take this right now, given the shit show we currently have...
Democracy is just about compromising and picking the best option from the options on front of you.
If the option is not there you can throw a strop about it and take your ball home until one day when that perfect party/candidate will be there for you or you can actually have a say and pick the best option that is currently available.
Starmer taking time out to slag the SNP – I’m looking forward to seeing the next polls on support for independence
There are a lot of people in Scotland who are unhappy with the SNP. There record on education for example is woeful. I voted them in Westminster elections purely because the other option is Tory. There are many others in my boat.
This idea that Scottish Independence is a magic wand is as crazy as Brexit, I am not saying I wouldn't vote for it but the SNP have a lot of work to do to convince me its a good idea. Better to build bridges than walls.
My preference would be a Labour led Westminster government seeking closer ties to the EU, but if we continue down the constant road of tory governments then I will be more likely to vote Indy.
The SNP is a broadchurch and I don't think it's voters are quite as socialist as some would have you think. For example would the anti English morons would be more likely to go down a UKIP/Brexit party line once Indy is achieved, if they hate the English are the really going to be welcoming to foreigners? Then there are people like me who are on the fence with Indy but purely because we are so fed up with 10 years of Tory in Westminster.
Yeah I don’t personally want a less extreme Tory government.
That just puts us back to Cameron’s government in effect.
So happy to carry on with a shit show rather than a less shit show that then has the opportunity to become less shit, bit by bit, until they are actually quite good?
The general public won't accept a complete swing to the left all of a sudden, regardless of how much some poster on this forum wants it for their own ideals. The JC show proved that.
The general public won’t accept a complete swing to the left all of a sudden, regardless of how much some poster on this forum wants it for their own ideals. The JC show proved that
Exactly that.
But the Labour left shout about their loss in 2017 as some kind of win as a counter argument and fully blame the Labour right for this.
God only knows what he expected to gain by getting stuck into the SNP.
He needs to be building bridges with them instead, because the only way to unseat the Tory’s is through a coalition
If those bridges are visible before a general election the media in England will make a big thing about a vote for Labour being a vote for Sturgeon as defacto prime minister. The calculation is that this would lose labour votes...
Yeah I don’t personally want a less extreme Tory government.
That just puts us back to Cameron’s government in effect.
You honestly believe that the present labour party would have imposed austerity like George Osbourne did? Seriously?
And there we have it. In a nutshell how the labour party went from a political party to a bunch of placard-waving protestors, all in the thrall to the King of the Common Room
When you're prepared to re-engage with reality, and acknowledge all the messy compromises that are involved with attaining, then exercising power, give us a shout. Because to me that attitude talks of the hopeless self-indulgence of those not directly affected by the really pointy end of Tory policies, whose life would be immeasurably improved by pretty much anything other than this lot. A lot of people don't have the luxury of waiting it out until everyone sees the light and votes for a socialist utopia. Because they'd be waiting for ever.
And to claim that the labour party is just 'tory-lite' or any of that terminology is just juvenile nonsense
They made the assumption of business as usual.
You really think Starmer should've stood at a lectern yesterday and tried to extol the virtues of some esoteric point of macro economics?
because the only way to unseat the Tory’s is through a coalition
I'll ask again: What would induce the SNP to enter into coalition with the Labour party? and what d 'you their price would be should that situation arise?
Can someone point to the key items of significant difference between the Tories and Labour policy then, seeing as it's so clear?
That would be a shame if it happened…Didn’t though, so the point’s moot isn’t it.
Thanks captain obvious. I was being flippant of course but I'm bored of hearing how 'lefties' are helping the Tories etc after the vile mass backstabbing which JC received which was apparently fine and justified.
We'll never know how he would have done in 2017 with the party behind him - it's difficult to see how he wouldn't have done considerably better.
I’ll ask again: What would induce the SNP to enter into coalition with the Labour party? and what d ‘you their price would be should that situation arise?
The SNP have limited powers in Holyrood. I'd imagine that they'd love to be able to be in the heart of the decision making process in Westminster.
The price they'd extract would be huge
Labour forming a majority without them looks impossible at present
The SNP are not going to become the junior partner in a coalition with Labour. They watched what happened to the Lib-Dems along with the rest of the country...
Labour forming a majority without them looks impossible at present
Hence the need to tell the folks in Scotland that the SNP are doing a shit job. They need those seats.
after the vile mass backstabbing which JC received which was apparently fine and justified.
A majority of the PLP thought, correctly, that Corbyn and those around him were utterly incompetent and leading the party off into the political wilderness, so exercised their right to vocalise that, refuse to serve in a shadow cabinet and then overwhelmingly voted no confidence in his leadership. A vote he ignored.
Given that we're talking about a man who spent his entire career (such as it is) voting against the leadership of his own party, talk of 'back-stabbing' is a bit rich.
They stabbed him in the front, in plain sight
Is Reece’s “fiscal prudence plan” the one where she spends an additional £1/4 trillion over a 10 year term without any clue of how it will be paid for?
The whole thing falls apart with her very first announcement.
Hence the need to tell the folks in Scotland that the SNP are doing a shit job. They need those seats.
...won't get them though unfortunately, best outcome I can see being a minority lab govt able to survive confidence motions and other big votes with SNP support on a vote by vote basis. Hence my thinking it's about messaging: voting for Lab isn't voting SNP into the UK govt.
All feels a bit angels on pinheads atm though, and equally likely Starmer's the kinnock figure to lead the party back out of the wilderness with someone else taking it into power. (Which I think he'd personally be happy with fwiw, as long as it doesn't take a generation of more tory damage.)
Yeah I don’t personally want a less extreme Tory government.
You want the current tory government, again?
They stabbed him in the front, in plain sight
Which was a massive help to the Tories - which you seem strangely fine with.
Starmer's done well throughout his leadership IMHO at a very difficult time. His one wobble was the panic overreaction to the by election result a few weeks back - he should have waited a few days to see how things developed. I put that down to lack of political experience and he'll have learned his lesson.
As for this week 10/10 AFAIC. He's got control of the party back in the hand of the grownups. His speech was superb. He actually lauded Labour's record in office, and got a standing ovation for it. (The whole "we were rubbish when we're in office" message was never a good one except perhaps in the very early days around 2010.)
McDonald resigning seemed bad news at the time but, in fact, it's just highlights that the party has returned to sanity. Ditto the hecklers - the state of them - their heckles just underline the fact the grownups are back in charge. ...and if gave him the chance for a couple of first class pre-planned putdowns.
He's seen off the Socialist Campaign Group. Attacking the SNP was spot on.
Best of all the people in the hall seemed to be right on his side, a very good sign.
Starmer's spot on with his stance on £15pa minimum wage - that would make full time minimum wage *above* the median average full time wage! Nobody thinks that's credible, certainly McDonald doesn't.
Keeping quiet on specific policy until nearer the Election is quite obviously the right thing to do.
...and then he was actually on R4 today this morning making the case for Labour at 8:15. Corbyn and Boris won't even go on.
Personally, I think Labour can win next time but if they fail Starmer's going to leave it in the right shape for the time after that, perhaps with Andy Burnham as Leader. ....and that's the bad news for Starmer. In current UK politics I think if you lose an election you have to hand the baton on. People get fed up after 7 years of the same opposition guy. (In power, I think it's different, in opposition you spend all your time sniping and it get's wearing for voters.)
Result, the Spectator and New Statesman both seem to approve, people who want a Labour Government should be pretty bouyed up this morning.
people who want a Labour Government should be pretty bouyed up this morning.
...actually yeah, good post and that's the take away.
Perfectly summarised there.
And it will indeed do him no harm at all that the hecklers in the hall, shown on the news last night, ticked every single box in the Daily Mail Central Casting 'Loony Lefty' caricature
Mum, that weird woman from up the road, the one with all the cats, is on the telly, shouting at people....
Personally, I think Labour can win next time but if they fail Starmer’s going to leave it in the right shape for the time after that, perhaps with Andy Burnham as Leader. …
People need to move on past Burnham, it's not going to happen, he doesn't want it, he'll wilt under the pressure, his successes in Manchester will be forgotten. Just because he has some sanity doesn't mean he either wants or is capable of the job.
Result, the Spectator and New Statesman both seem to approve, people who want a Labour Government should be pretty bouyed up this morning.
You're one of those people who treat politics like supporting Chelsea.
Awash with dodgy Russian money?
Thats the other lot
People need to move on past Burnham, it’s not going to happen, he doesn’t want it, he’ll wilt under the pressure, his successes in Manchester will be forgotten. Just because he has some sanity doesn’t mean he either wants or is capable of the job.
I think Burnham does want it. He's in full on "King over the Water" mode but yeah, who knows what will happen. He's not even an MP, will he even have a seat next time?
...but I only offered Burnham as a "for instance", my point is that Starmer could win, but if he doesn't he'll have to go if a successor can be found - the days of one leader surviving multiple election defeats are gone, 7 years of the same bloke saying how crap the government are is wearing to voters. ....but he'll be leaving the party in a far better state than he found it. Sadly I don't think that will console him much, but that's politics.
You’re one of those people who treat politics like supporting Chelsea.
Eh?
Eh?
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
What's that got to do with either my post or treating "politics like supporting Chelsea."????
Wonder if tackling dodgy Russian money is still on SKS' agenda. Neither of the people mentioned here are in post any more I don't think - did he mention it in his speech?
Or does the new corporate-friendly Labour party not bother itself with such 'lefty' matters any more.
I’ll ask again: What would induce the SNP to enter into coalition with the Labour party? and what d ‘you their price would be should that situation arise?
The SNP would not go into coalition. It would be a supply and confidence deal ie support the budget / queens speech and in any confidence votes. they would not go into formal coalition.
The price would of course be a referendum on independence
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
Really? You honestly think that life would not be improved by having a Starmer led Labour Government in power compared to this current lot? It might not be the socialist utopia you yearn for but it would be an improvement on this current lot. To make changes you have to be in power and with a FPTP system that involves compromising.
Your all or nothing attitude will just give us years more of Tory, it is utterly infuriating and depressing.
("what's the difference between labour and tory?" keeps getting asked in different ways and degrees of rhetoriclal self satisfaction. There's pages of answers along this thread but anyone who genuinely doesn't know and has access to the internet will benefit more from working this out for themselves than by being fed a few more lines here.)
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
Vague question requires vague question. Can you explain why it wouldn't improve?
You honestly think that life would not be improved by having a Starmer led Labour Government in power compared to this current lot?
Well, it's not going to happen by magic.
It needs people to come up with ideas and to implement them. What are they?
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
He spent 90 minutes yesterday detailing how
Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?
Starmer listed things the last Labour government did to wild applause yesterday.
So presumably he has that kind of thing in mind.
Yes, but apparently the only thing that the last labour government did in 13 years in power was invade Iraq
DON’T MENTION THE WAR.
Well, it’s not going to happen by magic.
It needs people to come up with ideas and to implement them. What are they?
I don't think you are interested, you have made your mind up despite there being evidence out there for you to find, including a 90 minute speech yesterday. You want a socialist utopia and Starmer won't deliver this so you won't vote for him. This will result in another Tory government which is far worse than a Starmer led Labour government. Remember this when Labour lose again and the poor get poorer our NHS gets even worse etc.
poor get poorer
I don't think that's going to stack up at the next election. We're seeing blue collar wages go through the ceiling and those pay increases are largely being paid for by the white collar workers paying more for Latte out/Deliveries/Petrol/restaurant food/home improvements.
...but that wasn't central to your point.
That’ll be taxed back out of those workers (and all the workers who don’t get pay rises) while the staples of life get more and more expensive for them.
So; the Labour Party conference was a complete failure for Starmer, and all he's done has reaffirmed his position on dividing the party even further (funny, cos he claimed he was going to unify the party, when he got elected leader) and making it less democratic. And to see the usual deluded suspects on here, lapping up his bullshit in the mistaken belief it might actually be sincere, is quite depressing. And we are where we are. Labour in tatters; tory rule for the foreseeable. Hey ho.
