I'm no fan of this constant appreciation of courtroom PMQs - but the way the RW press and the likes of JHB (M&S Katie Hopkins) jumped on him yesterday for a bit of vocal contortion was ridiculous but not unexpected.
Looks like Sir Kier "won" yesterdays PMQ's after all. Nice U turn Boris.
What’s interesting is whether Starmer and labour had had any previous contact with the less unhinged elements of the Tory party before they raised this at PMQ’s.
Joris backed down because his own (sane, non-ERG headbanger) backbenchers made it clear this morning that if Labour tabled an amendment then they’d vote with them against the government.
That raises a very interesting dynamic, going forward. There are many Tory MPs who despise Johnson and the lunatics he’s surrounded himself with and certainly don’t share their rabid Brexity agenda.
Keep going Keir.
non-ERG
remind me, does ERG stand for 'extreme recession group'?
anyway.
Maybe it's my imagination, maybe something I drank last night, but it does appear sections of the media I would not have expected (as well as some Tory MPs, ye gods what is going on) are showing support for Starmer.
I think that Dom and Dommer are paying the price for leaving their usual press lap-dogs looking like idiots over the lifting of lockdown.
Even the Torygraph has been having a pop at Boris. And the Mail - THE MAIL FFS! - published an article by Piers Morgan (who seems to have become Boris's nemesis) absolutely lambasting Boris and the government.
And Boris arrogantly pissed off one hell of a lot of Tory MPs when he sidelined all of them to exclusively appoint his useless Brexity nodding dogs to the front bench. I don't think many will be feeling that loyal to this particular leadership given how they've dealt (or rather failed to deal) with all this.
Overall, I think we could be witnessing the slow detoxifying of the labour brand, post-Corbyn*
Fingers crossed
* awaits the usual Corbynite suspects to show up with the achingly predictable comments
* awaits the usual Corbynite suspects to show up with the achingly predictable comments
erm... ok
Overall, I think we could be witnessing the slow detoxifying of the labour brand, post-Corbyn*
Fingers crossed
Of course they're detoxified. They've gone from having self declared revolutionaries in charge who threatened tear up the corrupt old order in the interests of the working population, to a solid establishment man backed by Lord Sainsbury who will tip the balance a little bit but won't fundamentally change the system that makes the tiny few at the top rich and powerful. What a thing to celebrate.
Or you could look at it pragmatically and say; what is the least worst option here?
A Starmer-led labour government would be better than a Johnson-led Tory government in, at a conservative estimate*, about 120 million different ways.
In the same way that the Blair-led labour governments were approximately 90 billion times better than the 18-year horror show that preceded them, despite what the 'revolutionaries' would have you believe.
But by all means, you carry on agitating for your glorious socialist revolution while living under permanent Tory rule. I'm sure that will be the best option for everyone, comrade
*see what I did there?
Or you could look at it pragmatically and say; what is the least worst option here?
I'm not necessarily complaining. If he can win an election and smuggle labour policies in under the noses of the CEOs and billionaires by making them believe he's their friend then fine by me. My only worry is that he'll go the way of Blair and forget that he's actually in the labour party.
glorious socialist revolution
I'd love to know what you think this is. I don't think many on the left apart from a few socialist workers think this would be a good thing. Your view of the left seems to be as outdated as the things you think they want.
My only worry is that he’ll go the way of Blair and forget that he’s actually in the labour party.
If you believe the re-writing of history advocated by 'the Left'. We've been here countless times on this and other threads, so I won't bother listing them again (SureStart, Minimum wage, etc, etc, etc....), but the Blair government did a huge amount of good that a Tory government would never ever have countenanced for a second, and certainly won't now.
To not acknowledge this is just daft, churlish and self-defeating. You may not view Corbyn and Co's policies as particularly far left, but there simply aren't the numbers who share your view to ever make it an electoral reality. Thats the bottom line.
So what Labour has to do is have a leader who appears competent enough to be electable - which they look to now have - who will advocate policies that are popular enough to win a general election by not scaring the horses.
It's a simple enough theory. Quite difficult to achieve in reality
You may not view Corbyn and Co’s policies as particularly far left, but there simply aren’t the numbers who share your view to ever make it an electoral reality. Thats the bottom line.
There's tons of evidence to suggest the policies weren't the problem. The bottom line is that Corbyn wasn't electable because he allowed himself to be diverted from his instincts on brexit (by Starmer primarily), and was disgracefully smeared as a racist by the rightwing press and many of his own MPs.
Anyway, that's old ground. What Blair proved is that it takes more than a friendly establishment man with some competence to win. You also need to dilute the policies so that the billionaires and CEOs can be confident that their pay cheques are secure and their power and influence uninterrupted. Of course a war or two also goes down well, but lets not go there.
We’ve been here countless times on this and other threads, so I won’t bother listing them again (SureStart, Minimum wage, etc, etc, etc….)
Absolutely - Blair could've been one of the great reforming Prime Ministers, and made a great start. Then he turned his attention to bombing brown people instead.
The bottom line is that Corbyn wasn’t electable because he allowed himself to be diverted from his instincts on brexit (by Starmer primarily), and was disgracefully smeared as a racist by the rightwing press and many of his own MPs.
His instincts on brexit were muddled and wishy washy.
He allowed himself to look racist by not saying simple things (sorry!) that would have defused the situation. He was more concerned with being right.
It took the interviewing heavyweight Phil Schofield to trick him to say sorry, but it was a bit late by then.
His instincts on brexit were muddled and wishy washy.
His instincts were to respect the result and leave. Remember all the abuse he got when he suggeted invoking article 50? It was the policy that was muddled once Starmer persuaded him to water down his acceptance of the referendum result.
He allowed himself to look racist by not saying simple things (sorry!) that would have defused the situation.
So the racists in the rightwing press accuse a lifelong anti-racism activist of being a racist, and he was supposed to apologise? And you seriously think they would have just left it that? Really?
Remember all the abuse he got when he suggeted invoking article 50?
Rightly so. Even those who wanted Brexit laughed at the timing of that. Showed he didn’t have a clue about the preparations and adjustments required. In fact, with every year that passed, it became more and more clear that, while he may well have been a dedicated political activist, he had not a clue how anything works in any industry.
Even those who wanted Brexit laughed at the timing of that.
But we're not talking about whether it was sensible, but whether his instincts were correct. Given that labour lost the 2019 election at the altar of 'getting brexit done' it would seem that his kneejerk reaction was in fact what the people wanted. Had he stuck to that, he very well might have maintained his reputation for honesty and authenticity, and carried the people with him. Instead he doubted himself and allowed the only thing he had going for him to be eroded in the minds of the public. The voters didn't want 'preparations and adjustments' and weren't interested in 'how things work', they just wanted their will to be carried out. Boris promised that, Corbyn didn't.
Maintained his reputation for honesty and authenticity?
Seriously, mate? What planet are you on?
The lifelong Brexiteer who found himself, by some unfortunate accident, leading a massively pro-EU party? Who then spent the referendum campaign hiding in the shed on his allotment? Then called for article 50 to be triggered immediately? Then perched precariously and spinelessly on a fence for 3 years talking some utter bollocks about being an ‘honest broker?
Honesty and integrity?
Are you having a laugh?
He’s as much of a coward and an opportunist as Joris Bohnson. With just as many ‘principles’
Take your blinkers off FFS mate
If that useless old **** had actually done his job in reflecting the values of a massively pro-EU party instead of his own there’s a very strong possibility we wouldn’t have ended up in the midst of this car crash in the first place.
The moment he gave his typically juvenile, 6th form demand to enact article 50 immediately, everyone with anything between their ears should have seen him for the charlatan that he is
He’s as much of a self-serving chancer as Boris.
Absolutely – Blair could’ve been one of the great reforming Prime Ministers, and made a great start. Then he turned his attention to bombing brown people instead.
The first couple of years he did not have total control of the party - policy was decided by conference and he had to enact it. Once he got control he moved the party and policy to the right. Hence we had radical stuff in the first couple of years and not thereafter.
The rewriting of history is not being done by the left - its being done by the right and too many folk swallow it.
So the racists in the rightwing press accuse a lifelong anti-racism activist of being a racist, and he was supposed to apologise? And you seriously think they would have just left it that? Really?
He could and should have shown some regret for the issues in his party; apologised and made changes.
Doing none of those things does not show leadership. Probably because Lansman didn't tell him to.
The first couple of years he did not have total control of the party – policy was decided by conference and he had to enact it
One of the first things the Blair government did was to privatise (in all but name) the organisation I worked for. Just sayin’
He could and should have shown some regret for the issues in his party; apologised and made changes.
Yep. It may have ben exaggerated by the media and the problem in tory party were worse (but they are tories so low bar etc,.) but he showed no leadership at all. I would have said I am going to sort it and I would have sorted it out in a month. All complaints come to me as whatever process is in place is ineffective and only stop coming to me when I have put an effective process in place.
Yes I would have rather been doing other things but this was a priority
I do wonder about these ad hominem attacks on the young and the old. Clearly being middle aged is no guarantee against ignorance, nor stupidity.
I'm still trying to find an example of a politician who sucked up to polite society, got backing from major capitalists (was it even their money?), got elected then turned out to have progressive principles after all. His first act of backing the landlords over the renters gives us some clarity about him and his sponsors and yet we get renters rallying in his defence. Fascinating.
He’s as much of a self-serving chancer as Boris.
The overwhelming evidence would suggest otherwise. What did he do when Starmer took over? He went straight to the local food bank and vounteered his time, with no media and no fanfare. Say what you like about his shortcomings as the leader of a political party, but please don't pretend he's the same as Johnson as he quite obviously isn't.
If you want my opinion on why he ultimately failed, it was because he fundamentally a decent, compassionate man. Trouble is that decency in the world of politics comes across as weakness, and people don't want weakness in a leader, they want strength, calculation and ruthlessness, which is why people like Boris and Trump succeed. It was this decency which inspired such loyalty in his supporters, and its the reason they'll always defend him when those traits are questioned.
Labour have called for Johnson to front todays pandemic presser to explain the position on Cummings. A very, very clever move.
oops wrong thread
Yep, without an imminent PMQ to pile the pressure on him it's the best way to give him no real route of escape.
Do the presser and he'll have to give answers which can only open up a can of worms.
Don't do the presser and he'll be labelled as aloof, out of touch and having no control.
Either way he's going to be shitting himself.
Ok, credit where it's massively due, Starmer has nailed this. it's like watching Germany vs Brazil in the 2014 world cup.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1264640874165743616?s=20
Christ - can we just forget about J bloody C!
He was an irrelevance then & even more so now.
At least with KS we’ve finally an opposition who can find his arse with both hands & I really hope he mercilessly skewers Blojo - preferably with a rusty, faeces smeared pitchfork.....
KS, with a bit of luck could be our next PM. Though we’re going to have be brave little soldiers till he gets his chance.....’cos quite frankly this Tory shower of shite aren’t going anywhere just yet!
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1267216624244994049?s=19
I had forgotten we'd got a Labour part recently and then there was a small positive bump in the polls to pre-2019 election levels and then we get this.
This Country certainly knows how to self-harm.
More forensic stuff needed?
Starmer needs to start holding the government to account. There's clearly unease amongst the expert advisors as to whether we have this under control enough to be easing lockdown. Unless the figures this week support that decision, he's got to start making them justify their decisions properly and publicly.
All the other polls for the same period are on about 43 v 38%, you can check that with the same twitter account. The YouGuv one looks like an outlier, so far.
What is more concerning is that the big changes in the ratings for the leaders aren’t reflected in the voting intentions for the parties (yet).
Yes I've seen those. Outlier or not you would expect with the baggage recently things would be better.
One response to this:
https://www.thearticle.com/polls-show-johnson-has-lost-the-country-he-may-never-get-it-back
Keir is like a mini Piers.
he does do a stunning silence
unusual for someone, like many on here, who has trained at the bar
What was it Napoleon said about never interrupting your enemy while they're in the process of making a monumental ****-up?
He's allowing Boris and chums to keep digging, and perhaps handing them another shovel as they wear them out.
After the farce of the last couple of weeks, the Observer has the Tory's poll lead at +4 (down from +26 in March), and Johnsons personal approval ratings are in freefall even amongst Tory voters.
I'm thinking that the first PMQ's after recess is going to make for interesting viewing
It seemed apparent to me that Johnson et al were trying to say that everyone should unite behind the government because of the crisis we face. They then accused people of playing politics when they had issues. For example the ongoing Cummings saga. For Starmer to wade in without a lot of thought would open him up to up to the obvious "playing politics" counter. He needs to be careful to avoid this which I think he is doing.
We're not dealing with a government that want to debate facts in intelligent conversation. They exist on slogans, sound bites, ignoring difficult questions or just outright lies. One of the mistakes of the remain camp, and the Corbyn opposition was to not realise the rules of the game they were playing.
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King
A little warm up to make sure de Pfeffel doesn’t sleep too well tonight...
Nice one Keir!
Shame he only gets 6 questions at PMQs but I'm sure he will slide the stiletto in nicely.
Binders keeps quoting that Napoleon reference as if we're winning a battle.
Its our people dying by the thousands.
Somehow, Napoleon would not be standing by if he was losing people like this.
