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The problem with relying on your tedious cut and paste is that it bears no relation to the quote you’re replying to.
On blimey! The committees arrived…
QED.
ransos - are you a mod or just pretending to be one? Thought you needed to be a subscriber/full member to be a mod, not a freeloader free member...since 2009.
ctk - what are you on about? Maybe take a bit more water with it.
ransos – are you a mod or just pretending to be one?
Maybe take a bit more water with it.
Quoting yourself? Is that like referring to oneself in the third person? 😂
Anything to contribute to actual subject in hand, ie the two facts I stated and the present leader of the Labour Party? The one the threads actually about, comrade?
Starmer needs to be disruptive, the Labour Party needs to be disruptive... its the only tool they have currently and with Boris they have someone who can't cope with disruptive attacks. Most of the Tory cabinet with the exception of Sunak cant cope qith disruptive questions, although Sunak has a big problem un as much he seems to address the question directly qhich is fine while your giving money away.. however i hope once those tables are turned that Starmer can utilise Sunaks answering style against him, i dont think Rishi can wing it like Blair?
Quoting yourself? Is that like referring to oneself in the third person? 😂
You obviously think you've scored some kind of point. Well done you.
Anything to contribute to actual subject in hand, ie the two facts I stated and the present leader of the Labour Party? The one the threads actually about, comrade?
You seemed to be keen on discussing Corbyn. Perhaps you should make your mind up.
I thought it was pretty clear from the statements I made that I’m hoping we’ll never ever have to discuss Grandad ever again.
Just to repeat for you.... when he belatedly departed, 3 years too late, having lost 2 elections, he left a massive Tory majority and a poll lead of 26 points.
Quite some achievement when you consider who we’re talking about here... Boris Johnson and a cabinet of complete political pygmies and utter incompetents.
Keir Starmer has reduced that lead to nothing in less than 6 months.
So he’s doing something right. Something that’s been woefully lacking in the Labour Party for quite some time
Anything to say about that?
I thought it was pretty clear from the statements I made that I’m hoping we’ll never ever have to discuss Grandad ever again.
Ah, so your strategy for not discussing Corbyn is to discuss him. Gotcha.
Nothing to say about that then, comrade?
As expected.
Gotcha.
Just one question for you...
Are you actually Jeremy Corbyn? He’s not had much to do of late, but you know.... you’d fit right in here 😃
Nothing to say about that then, comrade?
As expected.
You'd like me to compare Starmer with Corbyn, just after you said you didn't want to discuss Corbyn? It's almost as though you're not commenting in good faith.
It’d just be nice to hear you comment on something else other than me, if only for the novelty.
You’ve started to sound like all the other voices in my head.
That’s not a good place to be, maaaan 😉
It’d just be nice to hear you comment on something else other than me, if only for the novelty.
If you want to encourage debate, then it's probably best if you stop slagging off the people you claim to want to hear from.
No idea what this has to do with Starmer but I wouldn’t be so sure of Sturgeon rushing to join the EU as an independent nation. She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats
Jeez do you have any idea how the EU (or international politics) works or was that sarcasm?
If you want to encourage debate, then it’s probably best if you stop slagging off the people you claim to want to hear from.
We’re on a thread about Keir Starmer. You can start a thread about me if you like. That’s be fun. Shall we do that?
In the meantime, maybe you’d care to give us the benefit of your wisdom regarding the six months Keir Starmers been in the job since he took over from that other bloke.
Personally I think he’s doing a great job and seeing the Labour Party returning as a proper political force makes me a lot happier than the last 4 wasted years of pious, self-indulgent, sanctimonious, impotent virtue-signalling, that has lead us all into the absolutely hopeless state this country is presently in.
Personally I think he’s doing a great job and seeing the Labour Party returning as a proper political force makes me a lot happier than the last 4 wasted years of pious, self-indulgent, sanctimonious, impotent virtue-signalling
Can't help yourself, can you?
We still talking about me?
It’s all very flattering, but should we try talking about something else?
Maybe Keir Starmer? Seeing as that’s what the threads meant to be about.
I’ll start another thread about me if you like?
I hate to break into you but the conversation isn't entirely positive. Still, up to you: try being a teensy bit nicer and you might get the engagement you claim to want.
So.... this Keir Starmer bloke?
Any thoughts?
You’re looking great tonight by the way. Have you lost weight? Loving the new haircut....
Get a room you two, the sexual tension is unbearable...
Isn’t it?
*flutters eyelashes*
the sexual tension is
unbearabletiresome…
You’re just jealous 😛
binners, bit of friendly advice - why don't you continue posting in the Corbyn thread to give you an outlet for your hilarious Python images that you can post for the 1,000th time.
I also have an image of you walking down the street randoly shouting out "comrades", "6th formers","bunker" which I hope is not true.
Anyway, agree on Starmer and think he is doing fine and another 4 years of him acting as he is will help when it comes to election time (along with a small number of very clear policies, continuously repeated so the average voter can even understand what the party is about)
He still needs a voice coach.
So it seems like we are all agreed (although some just can't bring themselves to admit it openly).
Starmer is doing a better job than Corbyn. That job being to make his party electable to enough voters to make it a possibility.
The silence on this actual point is deafening from many posters on here.
So it seems like we are all agreed (although some just can’t bring themselves to admit it openly).
Starmer is doing a better job than Corbyn. That job being to make his party electable to enough voters to make it a possibility.
The silence on this actual point is deafening from many posters on here.
Well I don't know Danny: it doesn't feel like there's much room for those of us who don't believe that Corbyn is the devil or that Starmer is the messiah. Or the reverse!
It's pretty obvious that Starmer is a far more effective leader in the managerial sense, but sooner or later, he will have to set out what he actually stands for. Current opinion polls and PMQs may have the usual suspects jizzing their trousers, but are going to mean sod all at the next election.
but sooner or later, he will have to set out what he actually stands for
Stories are coming out that the Tories are trying to needle him into laying out specifics.
If that is what they want, give them the opposite. For now, just pointing at the fly-tipped sofa that leads them and saying "Not like that" is good enough.
Well I don’t know Danny: it doesn’t feel like there’s much room for those of us who don’t believe that Corbyn is the devil or that Starmer is the messiah. Or the reverse!
Youre as bad as binners at times
Most offering criticism of Corbyn just think he’s a bit crap, not the Devil.
Ive not seen anyone talk about Starmer as if he’s the Messiah either.
Current opinion polls and PMQs may have the usual suspects jizzing their trousers, but are going to mean sod all at the next election.
It is certainly a step in the right direction, though.
its 4 years until the next election. Starmer has time and bringing the polls to parity ( with Johnsons and the rest of the incompetent rabbles help) is a good step.
Firstly he gains a reputation for competence and being on top of his brief and saying what he means. I think many of you who do not follow Scottish politics do not realise how powerful this is. Sturgeon has done it and Davidson engineering a return to relevance in Scotland for the tories by doing so ( and by harnessing the unionist vote) Labour in Scotland have not and look where its taken them.
He also needs to make the tories own their mess - again he is doing this - work in progress but again the drip drip drip is hving its effect.
Once he has established these things then its time to set out a broad vision. Once the crises are beyond the acute stage is the time to do this. I expect some big set piece speeches from him in a year or two doing exactly this
The last step is a specific policy platform much closer to the next election
the time for specific policies is years away. doing it now gives the tories propaganda arm of the press time to hone attacks. At the moment they have nothing to attack Starmer on. thus his reputation is only enhanced
Yep Starmer doing well so far. My gut feeling of him is positive- I like him and I also think he can get better. I have no time for all the bell-ends who hate him because he's not Corbyn. You cant criticise the 'Blairites' for trying to oust Corbz and then do the same with Starmer. Suck it up - 2 wrongs do not make a right.
I would like him to ask some questions about Ayanda and the PPE scandal it seems a massive open goal to me.
Most offering criticism of Corbyn just think he’s a bit crap, not the Devil.
Narcissist, terrorist, traitor, anti-semite, racist, stalinist, no different to Trump, cabals, bunkers etc. All ridiculous hyperbole parroted on here as if it's fact by people who should know better. I've seen very little criticism of Corbyn which doesn't sound like the poster has been watching fox news or reading the sun. It's quite enlightening really.
As for Starmer, as ransos says he's a good manager. That's hardly a surprise given he was the DPP in charge of 7000 staff and a budget of £600M. It won't be enough though, because competence only goes so far. Tony Blair was also a good manager and look how that ended.
Binners doesn’t count at most
Although he does put the effort in admittedly
I’ve seen very little criticism of Corbyn which doesn’t sound like the poster has been watching fox news or reading the sun
Not sure how you reached that conclusion.
The main criticism is that he lost big (and I mean big) to a joke prime minister. I am of the belief that the UK has become genuinely more nasty and right wing, but Corbyn was thrashed, trounced, handed his arse, whatever.
He dithered and pissed about over Brexit because he was fundamentally at odds with the majority of his party and his support. In this he was totally the wrong leader. He was an open goal for the tory press and I know a lot of people who would have voted Labour if it hadn't been for Corbyn. Maybe they read The Sun too much? All of them?
Electability or doctrinal purity? Which do you prefer? If it is the former you have to assess Corbyn's performance in elections. If it is the latter then you might as well shut the door to the common room* and carry out interminable debates amongst yourselves until eternity. You will feel intellectually fulfilled as a result. The rest of the world won't give a monkey's.
*Couldn't resist.
Electability or doctrinal purity? Which do you prefer? If it is the former you have to assess Corbyn’s performance in elections.
Johnson got the former spot on, but I don't suppose you're suggesting that Starmer should follow the same path.
Johnson got the former spot on, but I don’t suppose you’re suggesting that Starmer should follow the same path.
No, because the reasons Labour were unelectable under Corbyn are different, as well you know. That's a weak, weak post.
You can bring out all the negative connotations you like about Blair and corporatising Labour. You can even go after the very bad choices he made afterwards if you like. You can even go for Iraq being the start of the slippery slope towards the popularity of 'anti-politicians'.
But the fact remains that the only labour leader to win a general election since 1974 was good old Tone. You don't like this, I can tell. "Oh if only the electorate could see what I see etc".
Well, the electorate don't. What they are currently seeing, though, is a tired old pissed-up panto act thrashing around in a mess entirely of his and his party's own making. And someone who is doing a good job of looking composed, on top of his brief and who is not offering anything up to the Tory press to use against him. It is working so far.
As I and others have said, what Starmer should be working proactively on is a road map out of Shitshowville and back to some form of sense and standing as a credible nation. I suspect he already is, but I'm afraid the public are going to have to actually feel enough pain first.
If it is the latter then you might as well shut the door to the common room* and carry out interminable debates amongst yourselves until eternity.
The implication here that there's no point trying to change our corrupt system of government to work in favour of normal people because 'that's just the way it is'. Well I don't accept that. The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it's on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable. It's absolutely not, but it will never be changed while people who suffer as a result of that system allow themselves to be misled and disenfranchised. The main question now is will Starmer seek to change this system or leave it as is? I think we all probably know the answer to that.
The implication here that there’s no point trying to change our corrupt system of government to work in favour of normal people because ‘that’s just the way it is’. Well I don’t accept that. The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it’s on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable. It’s absolutely not, but it will never be changed while people who suffer as a result of that system allow themselves to be misled and disenfranchised. The main question now is will Starmer seek to change this system or leave it as is? I think we all probably know the answer to that.
That's a really long way of saying "Ideological purity rather than electability".
So irrelevant debating club it is then?
Ace.
The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it’s on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable.
But you have to convince a majority of voters that you have a viable alternative to that. Last time this was attempted by blurting out electoral promises like an ADHD teenager with Tourette’s. Free broadband for everyone!!! And a puppy!!!
People just didn’t see it as credible, so delivered a thumping great majority to the Tories instead. If people won’t vote for it, then it’s dead in the water. You have to win power or your manifesto is just a wish list, not worth the paper it’s printed on. You might as well just wipe your arse with it.
So the trick for Starmer is to deliver increased equality and more social justice without scaring the horses.
There was another bloke who managed it quite successfully. What was his name again? Won three elections on the bounce? You remember him...
Free broadband for everyone!!! And a puppy!!!
I'm still waiting for my owl.
flash - anything worthwhile to say?
I see there have been multiple examples of tory gov incompetence today; just another 'day at the office' for them.
The trick for Labour is to not say they are going to reform but do it when they get elected a la les Tories.
Free broadband is a good idea btw. Just not a good idea for Corbz to promise when nobody trusted him with the purse strings.
Free broadband is a good idea btw. Just not a good idea for Corbz to promise when nobody trusted him with the purse strings.
I'm afraid working class people in this country are spiteful and pretty nasty, well the ones that bother to vote anyway. The ones I met saw it as pandering to the iphone generation, students ****ing themselves silly, starring into their phones all day "why should they get it for free when I have to pay" almost Paul Calf!
These people seem to vote on the basis of other groups of people being complete dickheads and it's their mission to put a stop to it. It really fires them up/get's them up in the morning, they love it.
As a Guardian-reading hand-wringer my thoughts were the polar opposite of that.
I thought ‘why on earth spend billions of pounds of taxpayers money on something most people like myself can easily afford? You’ll just end up effectively subsidising middle class peoples Sky TV packages. Why not just provide free broadband to the people who can’t afford it? Even better.., why not make the benefits system fairer so that people can afford it?
It was a stupid policy! Especially as it was announced with a huge TA-DAAAAAA! Flourish.
why not make the benefits system fairer so that people can afford it?
Don't start them on that topic it's like red rag to a bull!
A fair point.
When the furlough ends next month an awful lot of them are going to be finding out the difference between the “free massive telly, unlimited Stella and Lambert & Butler to sit around in your arse all day, watching Homes Under the Hammer” image portrayed in the daily mail and the actual reality of rent arrears, evictions, house repossessions, whole families living in one room of a gritty B&B and food banks so you can eat
The indoctrinated hate runs deep. There will always be some "scum" below them that's worse.
I like the idea of universal non means tested benefits. The NHS FFS! free further education makes moral and financial sense as does free broadband.
But to be clear it should not be anywhere near policy of Labour at the mo.
No, because the reasons Labour were unelectable under Corbyn are different, as well you know. That’s a weak, weak post.
Ah right,so electability as long as it's the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.
But the fact remains that the only labour leader to win a general election since 1974 was good old Tone. You don’t like this, I can tell. “Oh if only the electorate could see what I see etc”.
Sigh. I've posted on here before on what I think about Blair. It's rather more nuanced than your pathetic desire to caricature my view.
And someone who is doing a good job of looking composed, on top of his brief and who is not offering anything up to the Tory press to use against him. It is working so far.
Yep, it works well within its limitations.
Ah right,so electability as long as it’s the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.
General elections in this country are binary. You win or you lose. Full stop.
Voters don’t get a range of multiple choice answers. You put a cross in a box
That’s gone really, really well for Labour recently.
Yep, it works well within its limitations.
The ‘limitations’ are looking considerably less limiting than the 26 point ‘limitations’ that were in place 6 months ago. You know... the ‘limitations’ that say you will never, ever be anywhere near power, so will achieve the square root of **** all!
General elections in this country are binary. You win or you lose. Full stop.
Yup. So the Johnson strategy is the way forward.
Yes... because everyone who wants to be elected has to act like Boris Johnson.
That’s why he’s spaffed a 26 point poll lead in 6 months.
The country is obviously massively impressed with how that’s going and is looking for Starmer to replicate it
Anyway... how’s the common room looking, comrade? Got your new posters up? Those petitions won’t sign themselves
Yes… because everyone who wants to be elected has to act like Boris Johnson.
It's touching that you're so committed to proving my point.
Anyway… how’s the common room looking, comrade? Got your new posters up? Those petitions won’t sign themselves
And again.
You’re seriously suggesting that Keir Starmer is in any way, shape or form behaving like Boris Johnson?
Because to me, and clearly to an awful lot of other people, he is offering a very different and more importantly, Very much more credible proposition.
Oh, that we’d all had that proposition last December, instead of the threadbare alternative
You’ll be happy to provide examples to back up your carefully considered thesis then, obviously. I know you like to go heavy on detail....
You’re seriously suggesting that Keir Starmer is in any way, shape or form behaving like Boris Johnson?
I don't believe you're actually dim enough to believe that's what I suggested.
Not long until PMQs; johnson to be humiliated again, predictably.
If you're thinking about fact checking johnson, don't bother; he's a fact free bag of cells.
I don’t believe you’re actually dim enough to believe that’s what I suggested
Sounds exactly like what You’re suggesting, yes.
Maybe you should experiment with a less Gallic, Cantona-esque method of expression than a quote followed by an ambiguous one sentence ‘pithy’ comment?
Not that I don’t find the Cantona thing very attractive. Seagulls, trawlers and sardines and all that. Love it!
Not long until PMQs
Hoping he has a string of government quotes about testing and track and trace to throw back at Boris. Let's see him squirm some more
Not long until PMQs; johnson to be humiliated again, predictably
The problem is it doesnt really matter. Its not highly covered and his completely random soundbites are designed so they can be regurgitated in carefully edited form to the faithful showing how he is winning the arguments. Although admittedly he is badly missing the braying morons to provide unthinking support for him. Hence why they want to get everyone back to parliament so it can be covered up. Nothing new for a tory leader though. It was always entertaining watching the days when they decided not to back May.
Sounds exactly like what You’re suggesting, yes.
Oh well, nevermind. Make sure you have cream coloured trousers for PMQs.
Starmer was good on the news today. Short , concise and to the point on the latest Brexit shambles...
I’m paraphrasing, but...
Didn’t he tell us last year that this was all taken care of? Oven ready deal? He’d got Brexit done? What on earth is he doing now?
That was it. Job jobbed.
That’s going to resonate with a lot of people, surely thinking much the same.
There are plenty of people who voted for Brexit who aren’t ERG No Deal loons who can’t be thinking what Johnson is up to now is what they voted for. They voted last year for his ‘oven ready’ deal. Not this farce
Starmer was good on the news today. Short , concise and to the point on the latest Brexit shambles
Maybe he should just be a news reader then?
Lmao.
"The leave/remain argument is over" he said. Oh really. So you think all the remain at all costs PLP lot wasted their time sabotaging their own party.
Yeah so did I.
Could have done with that two years ago?
Seriously what is the point of him? Does he just arrive at the same conclusion as the Tory party but a bit later.
Just imagine if the Tory party we actually competent.
Seriously what is the point of him?
At this point (with 4 years to go until an election), To act with honesty and integrity and to question what the government are up to.
What would you be doing in his place?
Just imagine if the Tory party we actually competent.
Then he'd have to do something different. But you choose a shot to suit the ball that has been bowled, not one that might be bowled if there was a different bowler bowling
Ah right,so electability as long as it’s the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.
That has to be one of the silliest posts I've ever read.
Electability is absolute. The right kind of electability is the one that gets you elected. 50 odd million data points to collect, that should be enough to satisfy statisticians.
At least daz takes a while to get backed into a corner and post something genuinely ridiculous.
Literally 'wow'.
“The leave/remain argument is over”
Perfect line. Does not give the tory press any ammo. Leaves room to say "but you are effing it up" and to make policy "close working relationship" with the EU
That has to be one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read.
Only if you think politics is simply about winning power rather than actually changing things for the better. The problem with all the stuff about 'credible opposition' is that it really means 'no opposition', or more accurately no opposition worthy of the name which will worry those who benefit from our corrupt system. If the labour party fails to challenge a system which enables those at the top to enrich themselves at the cost of everyone else then it has failed in its primary mission.
As I've said many times, politics isn't a game of footy, where the only aim is to win to achieve temporary bragging rights over the opposition. The only people this hollowed out version of politics benefits are the politicians themselves, which goes a long way to explaining why it is how it is. It can be changed though, and the first step is for people to open their eyes and stop allowing themselves to be conned. That's not going to happen if we all just give up and accept the status quo.
Only if you think politics is simply about winning power rather than actually changing things for the better.
But. You. Can't. Change. Anything. If. You're. not. In. Power....
Hiding in the shadows is not showing honesty or integrity in my opinion. I was thinking of this thread when watching KS on the CH4 news last night, I was sure that nobody here would think he came across well 🤔 he appears afraid of himself, scared to upset anybody and everybody and already seems to have forgotten what he actually stands for.
Substance, direction and leadership (honesty and integrity) are all missing and he will not become PM with this strategy, the Labour party need to wake up to this very quickly, 4 years is not a long time at all. Every minute of everyday is relevant in this short marketing campaign and naive to think otherwise.
But. You. Can’t. Change. Anything. If. You’re. not. In. Power….
That's not actually true, but yes being in power is the best way to change things. Only if you win power on a platform of changing it though. I would support that, but I doubt that's what Starmer is planning. It'll be the usual fudge where the system is allowed to carrry on rewarding those at the top for doing very little (see the covid test thread), while throwing a few scraps to the proles. I've got very little interest in a labour government which doesn't want to eliminate the corrruption at the heart of the system.
That’s not actually true, but yes being in power is the best way to change things.
Are you suggesting a revolution or maybe a military coup?
Hiding in the shadows is not showing honesty or integrity in my opinion.
Absolutely agree. I said the same about the previous leader. PMQs is not enough... Starmer is great in parliament, and I still believe he would be great in government... but modern politics takes place elsewhere. We're years away from an election though, and during a pandemic the charge of "playing politics" can be made to stick... so the caution, although frustrating, might well be wise.
Starmer said, exactly what needed to be said last night, exactly what CCHQ didn't want him to
Seems pretty likely that he will be facing Gove/Sunak/Raab ? at next election, which will be both easier (none as populist as johnson) and harder (not as useless & unprepared as Johnson)
Are you suggesting a revolution or maybe a military coup?
I think he may be alluding to Farage/UKIP et al. They succeeded by providing a home for racists who would previously have voted Tory. The schtick was "give us what we want and you can have your racists back - on loan".
But this isn't about a splinter group pulling a main party's policy in a given direction by using their extreme elements.
This is about making Labour electable against a background of hostile right wing press and an electorate who largely have the attention span of a goldfish.
Starmer is off to a good start. He is creating an impression of quiet competence. He isn't rising to the bait and looking like he's about to spontaneously combust whilst losing bladder control like Corbyn did. He is not as easy to caricature as Grandpa. Quiet competence. Whispering "have you had enough of this pain/shitshow yet?".
I agree he is obviously going to have to get proactive soon, but letting Johnson dig his own hole is the most effective thing. For now.
“The leave/remain argument is over” he said. Oh really. So you think all the remain at all costs PLP lot wasted their time sabotaging their own party.
There is nothing Johnson would like more than to re-enact the great triumph against the evil forces of remain. It's literally all he has to show for his tenure.
Where's the benefit to Starmer or Labour to set himself up as a cheap punchbag for an ailing PM? Johnson knows he's cocked it up, needs to share the blame, and would like nasty remainers' 'obstruction of Brexit' to be billed alongside 'bullying EU technocrats' as the reasons for this shitshow.
Starmer is focusing on the things that Johnson promised, and which he is spectacularly failing to deliver.
Are you suggesting a revolution or maybe a military coup?
eh? That's quite a leap from wanting a labour party which challenges a corrupt system to armed insurrection. There are some things in between you know.
All I want is for a labour govt to stand on a platform of and then enact labour policies which eliminates the corruption and unfairness which infects almost every aspect of our political and economic system. Once that's done that it can then turn to practical problems like tackling climate change and poverty. I don't think that's particularly radical or unachievable.
All I want is for a labour govt to stand on a platform of and then enact labour policies which eliminates the corruption and unfairness which infects almost every aspect of our political and economic system. Once it’s done that it can then turn to practical problems like tackling climate change and poverty. I don’t think that’s particularly radical or unachievable.
Worst My Fair Lady lyrics eva.
All I want is for a labour govt to stand on a platform of and then enact labour policies which eliminates the corruption and unfairness which infects almost every aspect of our political and economic system. Once that’s done that it can then turn to practical problems like tackling climate change and poverty. I don’t think that’s particularly radical or unachievable.
Errrrrr.
I think there is a bit of work to do there.
'All' I want is an end to world poverty, hunger, disease, environmental damage and a secure and prosperous future for us all. One that doesn't degrade the planet in the process.
Then I'm going to move onto more 'practical' goals like the ability to change base metals into gold, but in an environmentally sustainable way.
There, that's the difficult bit done - just saying it. The practicalities are a piece of piss. I'll leave them to a mere functionary to figure out.
😇