Sending gay people back to countries where they face torture and death doesn't count I suppose.
I think it is fair to say that Johnson wasn’t as right-wing as Thatcher on social issues too.
Thatcher was right wing through and through, Johnson blows hot and cold. Just watch out when he is blowing hot...
Class exists but it no longer a simple 3 layer problem it's a series of more complex groupings with barriers to entry which help define them. Arguably you can occupy more than one and move in a limited way between them but there are a few which are essentially are only inherited. The lack of clarity makes "class war" meaningless to most. Example, grouse shooting, a self made humble roots businessman buys a grouse moor and joins the shooting and fishing fraternity. He may behave as upper class inherited landowner but he's not one, he grew up on a council estate, he'll always be new money.
If you start to use the Marxist definitions good luck with that language on the doorstep
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand.
It's always mattered, as it does in most countries, we just have the cultural references. Mention areas of northern France to a Parisian lawyer and watch her nose wrinkle in disgust
Its probably more important after years of right wing misrule.
When was the left wing golden era?
It defines everything from how long you live to how well off you are in retirement to how well your kids do at school
As does where you live, whether you are public sector final salary pensioner, got on the property ladder in the hotspots 50-30 years ago, occupation, etcetera
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Mention areas of northern France to a Parisian lawyer and watch her nose wrinkle in disgust
Highly recommend watching “Bienvenue chez les Ch'tis”.
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Next step will be having police doing random ID checks in the street....... Sorry that's France
Sending gay people back to countries where they face torture and death doesn’t count I suppose.
That Johnson is more right-wing than Thatcher on social issues? Absolutely not.
I think some people have a quaint idea of what Thatcher was, as they look back at history through rose-tinted glasses.
Thatcher supported Pol Pot FFS. The Khmer Rouge were able to carry on killing people thanks in part to Thatcher's support. For those who recent history isn't a strong point they killed up to 2 million people. And just how murderous they were had been well-established at the time that Thatcher supported them.
Thatcher supported Pol Pot FFS. The Khmer Rouge were able to carry on killing people thanks in part to Thatcher’s support.
It's shocking, none of the players come out well. The SAS training teams part of the worst aspects. The Vietnamese invasion saved many. It's a sad indictment of the cold war which for many was very "hot".
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Not really. There have been 3 whole convictions for voter fraud in the last few years. So 40 million quid per conviction is a perfectly proportionate reaction to the threat posed.
It's definitely not targeted to stop specific groups of individuals from voting. Not a bit of it.
Thatcher felt a close affinity with her chum Augusto Pinochet, I think they shared similar opinions on social issues.
Edit : And economic issues.
It’s definitely not targeted to stop specific groups of individuals from voting. Not a bit of it.
What do you think Thatcher's abolition of the GLC was about binners?
Edit : You really need to stop this ridiculous conclusion that because Johnson is a terrible person he must worse than Thatcher.
Johnson is just as bad as Thatcher, his Brexit big boy pants just give him a get out of jail free card with an awfully large share of UK voters, as he makes their lot worse with every month he stays in power. We're only on year 3 don't forget. If we get to year 11, you can compare their legacies better then.
He has not been worse than Thatcher yet but could be if he feels it would provide a benefit to him.
Johnson is just as bad as Thatcher
Well his status seems to have improved on this thread now. He's gone from worse than Thatcher to as bad as Thatcher. Or perhaps Thatcher's status has worsened?
The issue isn't some bollocks about who is worse. The issue is that he is very clearly different to Thatcher, and that needs to be recognised so that the Tories can be dealt with on the basis of what they are now, not what they were years ago. Who is worse is completely irrelevant. Unless of course you are a Tory.
Of course he's different to Thatcher. The claim was that he was moving the party to the left... based on him giving tax breaks to the rich, tax rises and benefit cuts to the poor, cutting education, cutting local authority funding in the areas most in need, and handing over billions to private companies without ensuring value for money on what they deliver.
Edit : You really need to stop this ridiculous conclusion that because Johnson is a terrible person he must worse than Thatcher.
Why? How do you define 'worse'?
Having been brought up in the 80's in the north west of England, I loathe that bloody woman with every fibre of my being, because every day I saw the misery she wilfully inflicted on those people around me.
But I also have a slight grudging respect for the fact that she really passionately believed what she was doing was necessary and she clearly said what she was going to do, then did it (we won't get into the fact she went about it in the most callous, uncaring and destructive way imaginable). There was at least a defined purpose for it all, however much i disagreed with it.
I loath Boris Johnson because he believes in absolutely nothing other than his own self-advancement. Theres nothing of any more substance than that. And on the alter of that self-advancement absolutely anything and everything can and must be sacrificed. I have not even an ounce of respect for Johnson. I view him with complete and utter contempt. If he thought feeding babies into a wood-chipper on live TV would win him some votes, he'd do it without a seconds hesitation.
Anyway... you can't compare the two because Thatcher was a Tory, Johnson isn't. He's something far, far worse
Though you seem to like him
Oddly enough, I met members of the Welsh Guards in Harare's Monomotapa hotel in 1983 who'd be sent out there to 'advise' Mugabe's Fifth Brigade (SAS types).
The claim was that he was moving the party to the left
Made by numerous commentators, from the lefty Guardian and FT, to the raging right-wing Daily Mail and Telegraph. It is widely held view which is bizarrely ridiculed on stw
Presumably because we all hate Johnson so much that it is inconceivable to entertained the suggestion that he has shifted his party to the left.
There is no doubt that Johnson has embraced a great deal of Keynesian economics, whatever his ****ing motives, and there is also no doubt that Keynesian economics is to the left of Thatcherism.
It wasn't me that defined Keynesian economics as social-democratic and Thatcherism as right-wing, but those are the facts.
If you are not happy then perhaps start a movement to redefine what right-wing and left-wing means.
Moved the party to the left economically maybe - but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Though you seem to like him
I can't believe that a grown man comes out with attempted put-downs of primary school quality.
Not even sixth form quality.
If you are not happy then perhaps start a movement to redefine what right-wing and left-wing means.
It's increasingly irrelevant. Johnsons policies are a pick and mix of whatever suits him at any given moment. Thats why he's so difficult to oppose. It's like trying to nail down blancmange. His own backbenchers can't even fathom out what he is, never mind the opposition.
He enabled the most right-wing idealogical project this country has ever seen, then promptly started throwing (taxpayers) money around like a pissed sailor on shore leave.
Moved the party to the left economically maybe
Yeah that seems to have been rather temporary
https://www.ft.com/content/ea096afa-7747-4763-811f-46e79dd41990
Looking pretty RW to me
And of course Kimbers misses the point.
Yeah that seems to have been rather temporary
So now the argument is whether it's temporary or permanent?
This argument is moving faster than I can keep up.
that he has shifted his party to the left.
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else, but otherwise with cancel-culture, Immigration, voter registration, cronyism, and so on, he's moved them to the populist right into space previously occupied by UKIP as far as I can tell.
I'm not really interested if that makes him better or worse than a woman who was PM over 30 years ago.
So anyway back on topic, how is Starmer doing, is he going to continue with the strategy of deafening silence which has resulted in a stunning 2% lead in one poll?
Or is he perhaps going to join in with the Richard Nixon/Boris Johnson battlecry : "We are all Keynesians now" ?
but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Not really, but keep up the hyperbole
As for the drills, I'm surprised they didn't put their own drone up to get footage for every news outlet in the world.
Having said that, they could be getting trained by the Italians or Greeks, those nice EU countries that have been doing it for ages.
It's like watercannon and CS gas, common in the EU, never going to be seen in Britain. But you know, neo facist police state etc etc
Other countries use heavy handed border and crowd control non shocker.
The shocking aspect is how it's not confined to just neo-fascist UK.
Anyway back on topic, what is Starmer's plan for tackling rising fascism in the UK?
It’s like watercannon and CS gas, common in the EU, never going to be seen in Britain.
Possibly not the best example given Johnson did buy some watercannon before May told him no. So I am not sure where your confidence comes from. If we have some major riots next year for whatever reason I really wouldnt rule out the NI ones being borrowed.
Anyway back on topic, what is Starmer’s plan for tackling rising fascism in the UK?
We might find out in a week or so when he publishes his essay. So best to talk about Johnson and co a bit longer whilst we are waiting.
Possibly not the best example given Johnson did buy some watercannon before May told him no.
It typified him in so many ways. Didn't do any research beforehand, just went and did it, then had a massive sulk when he wasn't allowed to use his new toys (what do you mean I can't just do whatever I like?!) and it also cost the taxpayer a packet when they all then had to be sold for scrap
Johnsonian
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else
Very much this.
I said right at the beginning of the pandemic they would have to spend like no other time.
But in essence they revert to type and let the market offer up the way forward. It's doomed ultimately.
And I don't rule out them using more fiscal measures if things look grave for them.
The difference between Tories and Labour is that the Tories are not coy about doing it. Labour were saddled with their stupid fiscal credibility rule. Which is why we have the back to front economics of either party. Labour don't want to appear they're going to blow loads of money.
Blame Liam Byrne.
I loath Boris Johnson because he believes in absolutely nothing other than his own self-advancement.
And yet you support the rightwing careerists in the labour party who are no different. Your inconsistency knows no limits.
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else
I think the reason for that is Boris literally does not give a shit about ideology or anything else. He will do whatever makes him popular with enough people. If we were a socialist country he'd be banging on about socialism. He has no principles at all.
And yet you support the rightwing careerists in the labour party who are no different. Your inconsistency knows no limits..
Seriously mate.. get a grip.
Saying that centrists (boooo... hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Your inconsistency knows no limits.
Personally I think politicians, commentators and the public "sticking to their opinions" goes a good way to explain the problem we've managed to create in modern politics. It's the only part of life where no one can say "Yep, I was totally wrong about that" and not be made to feel as they're an idiot or a fraud. A little less consistency would probably do everyone some good
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
They (labour rightwingers that is) have a lack of ideology and prize self-advancement, or winning in other words, over everything else. Sentiments which you express support for on here all the time. How is that different to your stated reasons for hating Johnson?
but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Not really, but keep up the hyperbole
Yes really. Gerrymandering, reducing the power of the opposition by restrictive laws, toadying up to neo fascists. Both in the UK and the US under Trump fascism is really really close and the home office under patel is simply fascist.
Yes there are a lot of neofacists in the tory party and they have the upper hand. this is the most divisive nasty racist government in my lifetime. a party that Powell would be proud to be in. a party that jumps to Farages vision.
Call it what it is. centre economic policy ( vaguely) and hard right social policy based on racism class and based around disenfranchisement of many along with the creation of the enemy withing and the big lie - thats facism
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Right winger not centrists and remember these folk preferred a tory government to one led by corbyn. Not a cm between them and Johnson. Burnham is the classic example - not an original thought in his head and prepared to make overtly racist statements to get power
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Yes you're correct, they're further to the right on economics and much less effective at getting elected.
lets add Kate Hoey and Frank Field into the mix. tories in the labour party ( I do believe both gone now)
Gerrymandering
How?
Are you saying the independent boundary commission isn't
and the home office under patel is simply fascist
Remind me, how is she different to the last umpteen home secretaries?
Call it what it is. centre economic policy ( vaguely) and hard right social policy based on racism class and based around disenfranchisement of many along with the creation of the enemy withing and the big lie – thats facism
Except it isn't
You have IDS advocating to keep the UC £20 uplift
Yes, that IDS
You have what is essentially a open debate and market testing of ideas, it's not pretty but it's working for Johnson.
The voter law is IMHO pointless, but to get a job these days you need photo ID to assist in proving your right to work in this country. We don't have"papers please" in the street like lovely soft cuddly France does. Voter fraud can and does happen in limited ways but as many point out it's a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut
Barnier, remember him as the lovely soft voice of EU reason? This Barnier
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-eu-uk-michel-barnier-election-president/
the creation of the enemy withing
Who are these people who have been blackened with this label?
the big lie
What's the lie?
You are reading far too many Guardian Op-Ed's in your retirement.
It typified him in so many ways. Didn’t do any research beforehand, just went and did it, then had a massive sulk when he wasn’t allowed to use his new toys (what do you mean I can’t just do whatever I like?!)
And yet earlier today you made the claim that as London Mayor Johnson was projecting the image of a liberal.
Arguing in favour of water cannons on the streets of London doesn't sound particularly liberal to me.
I personally think that the most dangerous aspect of Johnson's premiership is his questionable commitment to democracy and human rights.
I don't think he has any. The rights of other people tend not to figure very high on the list of priorities for narcissists.
And yet Labour seems unable or more likely unwilling to tackle him on issues which presumably they consider to be electorally unimportant.
In the case of the overseas operations bill Starmer actually insisted on helping the Tory government by instructing Labour MPs to abstain, and he sacked three of his shadow ministers for having the temerity to vote against a bill designed to protect those guilty of torture and war crimes.
Edit : In a measure of just how rotten the Parliamentary Labour Party is only 14 Labour MPs voted against the bill.
