In this case he apparently went on to talk about piles of bodies.
Or had a rant in the office and then locked us down again as advised by Whitty etc
He has just dumped a load of cash at the NHS, increasing taxes, breaking manifesto promises, all the right wing commentators are pointing out that it will be essentially irreversible so more taxation coming to enable social care budgets.
Johnson, the enemy of the NHS isn't going anywhere as an attack line
Well he doesn’t sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he’s been so successful running rings round the opposition, what does that say about them, apart from the fact that they are no match for someone who can smile and wave?
And this is ultimately the problem, does Labour have anyone who can take the wind out of his sails? If you can put him on the backfoot his own side will eat him, until then he runs the government and drives the agenda (takes credit for anyone's good ideas and disowns the stinkers)
Johnson, the enemy of the NHS isn’t going anywhere as an attack line
Agree. How the money gets spent and who gets it is an irrelevance as the headline is he raised taxes to improve the NHS.
Well he doesn’t sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he’s been so successful running rings round the opposition
It was one of Bidens aides that nailed Johnson when he called him a ‘shapeshifting creep’
Bang on!
He was your archetypal ‘metropolitan liberal’ when running for London Mayor as that was his route to power. That’s what would win.
He then took the exact opposite stance in the Brexit campaign, effectively nicking Farages clothes to become THE English Nationalist, then railing against that very thing he himself was but a couple of short years earlier - metropolitan liberals
Boris would embrace full blown communism in a heartbeat if he thought it would be in his interests to do so.
It absolutely staggers me that people are still buying his act, but they are. I wonder what the next incarnation will look like?
Since capitalist production is based on one class exploiting sv from another, it would be ludicrous to suggest that in some way class war is over. It might take different forms and eg Johnson might apply different policies depending on circumstances but the aim to to maintain the status quo at any and all costs. Wasn't long ago he was buying up water cannons ffs.
Since capitalist production is based on one class exploiting sv from another, it would be ludicrous to suggest that in some way class war is over.
Point proved, the left fighting yesterday's battles. What class is Mike Ashley? What class is Carol Kane of Boo Hoo?
It might take different forms and eg Johnson might apply different policies depending on circumstances but the aim to to maintain the status quo at any and all costs.
There isn't a status quo, Starbucks, Google, apple, etc have massively changed the paradigm, it will continue to change
Wasn’t long ago he was buying up water cannons ffs.
They were bought from the really nice Germans, imagine EU countries with water cannon! They'll be using CS gas for crowd control next
Simply, Tories have evolved. There's no point saying Boris isn't a Tory. Of course he is, it's just that the Tory party are good at finding new areas to move into.
At their core they are still free-market bullshitters/exploiters. That remains the same. How they achieve that goal has advanced. How they create the environment to thrive has changed.
I didn’t link that article it was binners that did
🤣 FFS I'm on a roll here!
So do I think the left has won the argument? Well I certainly think that it has made inroads, probably as much due to the self-evident failure and limitation of neoliberalism as that of the left offering a convincing argument. The left mostly doesn’t have a platform to reach the wider public.
And if the left had really won the argument we wouldn’t have a Tory government today, even one which is attempting to present an alternative post-thatcherism agenda.
Fair, can't disagree with you there.
I think class is being confused here with status. Whatever Mike Ashley's accent, origins, baggy belly, flat cap or hairdo, his class is determined by being an employer of other people's labour. Boo Hoo are super exploiters of vulnerable workers in Leicester's rag trade, that's what determines her class, it's relationship to the m.o.p. Not difficult. You sell your labour power or you exploit others'.
It was one of Bidens aides that nailed Johnson when he called him a ‘shapeshifting creep’
Bang on!
So you have now completely changed your mind. Yesterday you were claiming that Johnson couldn't think for himself and the most he could be expected to manage was to smile and wave.
Today he is a cunning shapeshifting creep. Although presumably you don't think he is very good at it, despite you listing all his achievements on the way to securing the highest office in the land, as you claim to be "absolutely staggered" that people fall for his con.
And one of the people who has fallen for Johnson's con is also one of the leading commentators on the Guardian, a newspaper which you seem to hold as truth incarnated.
It's a very good article imo, better than the Larry Elliott one which you linked yesterday, although they are both saying essentially the same thing.
And this bit is almost as if Freedland was thinking of you when he wrote it :
"Nor is there much mileage in suggesting Johnson is a fake, that he’s only posing as a tax-and-spend social democrat. Ideological consistency is a quality sought by other ideologues."
Are you an ideaologue binners?
And Freedland goes on to make a remarkably important suggestion :
Instead, it’s better to take Johnson on his own terms. A few licensed Labour outriders could run with that, welcoming the prime minister on to the red team, hailing Johnson as a TINO: a Tory in name only. “Spook his backbenches the same way Cameron spooked ours,” says one grizzled Labour operative.
What Starmer is doing is actually the complete opposite, he is repeatedly denouncing Johnson as 'same old same old Tory'. There is no doubt that there is nervousness and disquiet on the Tory backbenches, specially with commentators in the Tory press denouncing Johnson as a "Corbyn-lite". However they are still willing to go along with him, their willingness to back an increase in taxation to pay for a social service with almost no rebellion was remarkable.
If however Starmer was to welcome the new convert to anti- Thatcherism/austerity and simply offer a better way to achieve the same goals it would provide two benefits.
Firstly it would rattle the Tory backbenches to hear Starmer claim that Johnson was singing from the same hymn sheet as him.
And secondly it would send out a message to voters that Labour's alternative agenda was actually not alternative at all but what Johnson was purporting to be pursuing. It would actually throw the Tories on the defensive.
But Starmer offers no alternative and relies instead on simply denouncing Johnson for being a Tory.
his class is determined by being an employer of other people’s labour
A criteria that clearly doesn't determine class as numerous working class employers can demonstrate
Class doesn't determine whether you have crap morals or treat people unfairly
The left are fighting the old class war not understanding that it's all moved on, Corbyn was as middle class as any of the recent labour leaders, and probably most of the conservative party.
The conservatives have grasped that class has become increasingly irrelevant, that's why their political coalition is broadening whilst labour's seems to narrow and then doubles down by denouncing anyone who has voted conservative as racists etc
Not difficult. You sell your labour power or you exploit others’.
Yeah I was surprised when BnD asked what class Mike Ashley is. Presumably he thinks the answer is based on how he speaks?
Although I do agree that the whole class thing is outdated, about 10,000 years out of date. However we very obviously don't live in a classless society, and I can't imagine why anyone would think that we did.
Edit : I hadn't seen your post BnD when I posted mine
Corbyn was as middle class as any of the recent labour leaders, and probably most of the conservative party.
So what that Corbyn is middle-class? How is that relevant to what we are talking about?
Johnson can't be serving the interests of the existing ruling class because Corbyn is middle-class??
So what that Corbyn is middle-class? How is that relevant to what we are talking about?
Which classes are fighting each other?
Which ones are the baddies?
Yeah I was surprised when BnD asked what class Mike Ashley is. Presumably he thinks the answer is based on how he speaks?
What class do you think he is?
He's certainly not upper class, it just shows that a silver spoon isn't a prerequisite for treating people shabbily, same for Carol Kane etc etc. No idea if he's so of a third generation Dr, dentist or stockbroker
What sides are the combatants in this class war?
.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Tory Party and Labour Party don't serve different class interests?!
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
You really think that class doesn't come into it?
Perhaps it's just down to much better education that makes them decide to join the Tory Party rather than Labour?
And why are you pretending that because some social mobility exists it somehow signifies that we live in a classless society?
And no, I don't think Mike Ashley is working-class. The definition relies on things such as economic power and the person's role in production, services, etc, not the way they speak or whether they prefer lager.
https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1436698639779442702?s=21
Our whole tax system needs overhauling to not only make it fairer for workers, but also for smaller and medium sized businesses. And we need a real comprehensive plan for care that is more than just about protecting property inheritance for the very well off. Both these things are needed. They are two separate problems though. Blaming an increasingly regressive and not fit for purpose tax system on “fixing social care” when you are not doing anything of the sort is peak Tory. I hope that the public see though the wheeze, and that it is one more thing they consider when they cast their vote at the next election.
So you have now completely changed your mind. Yesterday you were claiming that Johnson couldn’t think for himself and the most he could be expected to manage was to smile and wave.
Today he is a cunning shapeshifting creep.
You think those two things are mutually exclusive? They’re the same thing.
When did I say he couldn’t think for himself anyway? He’s a clever bloke, but what I said is that he doesn’t do ideas. He doesn’t do ideology. Because that would involve effort, and he’s no interest in that. He’s lazy.
He’s a magpie. A thief. He’ll steal whoever’s ideas most enable his self-advancement, free from any particular belief system at all.
Like I said, he’d embrace and promote Buddhist philosophy, communism or whatever if he thought it’d benefit him
To get himself into number ten he basically stole Farages UKIP agenda, wholesale.
Now it’s served it’s purpose, he’s moved on from that and combined his right wing culture war with more left-leaning economics as that’s the way the polls tell him that’s the way the wind is blowing
There’s no such thing as a Johnsonian ideology. It’s just whoever’s ideas he nicks next
It won't work
It's not fwair
& It doesn't fwix swocial care
Tone needs work
To get himself into number ten he basically stole Farages UKIP agenda.
Yeah I get that binners. I am fully aware that Johnson waited until not long before the referendum to decide whether to back leave or remain, despite having decades to think about the issue.
He had to think very hard and calculate what would serve his best interests. I clearly remember when he announced that he had decided to back leave as it made the national headlines.
So does that mean that we can't call Johnson a brexit support because he only took that position to further his own ends?
Johnson is clearly a tax and spend Tory PM, the reasons he is are not relevant to whether he is.
And it does make him different to all other Tory leaders since Ted Heath.
Labour needs to deal with him in a different way to how they have dealt with other Tory leaders.
So does that mean that we can’t call Johnson a brexit support because he only took that position to further his own ends?
He’s no more a believer in Brexit than I am. It just suited his agenda
I look forward to you correcting anyone who refers to Johnson as a brexiteer and pointing out that he is a Remainer, just like you.
I hadn't noticed you doing so but perhaps I wasn't paying attention.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Tory Party and Labour Party don’t serve different class interests?!
Is labour the party of the metropolitan liberal elite class?
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
You really think that class doesn’t come into it?
Class is a legacy factor, has labour lost a lot of it's traditional areas because it represents the class based issues or because it stopped?
Perhaps it’s just down to much better education that makes them decide to join the Tory Party rather than Labour?
Strange hypothesis since academics are predominantly left wing
And why are you pretending that because some social mobility exists it somehow signifies that we live in a classless society?
No we don't, social selection does exist, I'll never be upper class, you could argue new classes exist, the new money class, the underclass, the Islington class etc
And no, I don’t think Mike Ashley is working-class.
Does the dissonance make your teeth itch? (I'm still clueless other than his classlessness)
The definition relies on things such as economic power and the person’s role in production, services, etc, not the way they speak or whether they prefer lager.
Nothing to do with their parents occupations, upbringing, area, education, outside toilet?
Does the dissonance make your teeth itch?
No
Even captain sensible is starting to look appealing to some 😳
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1436767684549611521?s=19
We haven't even been properly hit by inflation and supply chain shortages yet, not to mention the winter flu surge
Johnson wants to frame the next GE around brexit? If he's got any sense hell be making sure supply chain issues don't ruin Xmas for people or he's going to be in trouble.
Brexit was always going to lead to negative consequences, especially short term, we've been warned for many months that government wasn't prepared for it in earnest.
Fu enforcement of NI protocol has been deferred again, but by 2022 it will be in full. From next summer UK holiday makers will face new visa rules & a fee for EU holidays, not to mention all carriers charging for roaming again. And 2022 a lot of people will be looking for a foreign holiday
For Starmer its important he doesn't say 'I told you so' or those red wall voters will stay away
Wow, I never thought you would miss the point as spectacularly as that BnD.
I say :
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
And you respond by providing a link which refers to a Labour supporter going to Eton. Did you really not understand what I meant by "very few"?
Explain to me why so many who want to enter politics join the Tories. Or is it just an unexplained mystery?
Btw Tam Dalyell is a much better example of an Eton educated Labour politician.
You ask "Is labour the party of the metropolitan liberal elite class?". What if it is? How does that challenge my claim that Tories and Labour represent different classes?
Metropolitan liberal elite isn't actually a recognised socio-economic class, as far as I'm aware, but even if it is how does you making the association between it and the Labour Party challenge my claim that political parties represent different classes? You appear to be simply re-enforcing my claim by giving an example.
And if you think Mike Ashley doesn't represent a member of a ruling big business class because as a child he had an outside toilet then I frankly don't know where to begin.
I look forward to you correcting anyone who refers to Johnson as a brexiteer and pointing out that he is a Remainer, just like you.
You’re missing the point completely
He’s neither a Brexiteer or a remainer. He couldn’t care less. It’s served it’s purpose now and whatever happens now won’t effect him. Brexit got him the top job. That’s all that matters
Johnson has no belief in anything other than himself. No ideology. Nothing. An empty vessel of nothing but narcissism
He creates the conflict, then all that matters is which position to take to further his own interests
With Brexit he helped create virtually a 50/50 split which is the holy grail for a shameless opportunist like him.
I frankly don’t know where to begin
It's difficult to discuss seriously with such utter confusion. I'm surprised Hyacinth Bucket didn't get a mention.
Even captain sensible is starting to look appealing to some 😳
We haven’t even been properly hit by inflation and supply chain shortages yet, not to mention the winter flu surge
Yes, the longer it is till the next election the worse it will be for Johnson as a number of voters will realise that what he is doing and saying is BS and not fixing anything and not making anything better. The question is how many will work that out and how many will continue to think "well, the Labour party would be doing even worse" plus I won't lose my house when I need care now.
He’s no more a believer in Brexit than I am. It just suited his agenda
And it was known very publicly at the time that he was spinning a coin on whether to side with remain or leave. That doesn't sound like a committed remainer or leaver but someone who was weighing up which would benefit themselves the most. Looks like he chose the right side...
Johnson has no belief in anything other than himself. No ideology. Nothing. An empty vessel of nothing but narcissism
Well I'm glad to see that you are finally agreeing with me binners..... it's given me the warm fuzzies 😊
I have been saying since Johnson became Tory leader that he isn't really a politician just an attention-seeking clown who uses politics as a vehicle for his act.
I have also been saying that for those reasons he has no ideological commitment which means that he can pursue whatever he feels serves his personal best interests.
The consequence of that has led him to a position which is to left of Thatcher. He knows that austerity is not currently a vote winner, people are fed up with it, they want better services.
Furthermore without the baggage of ideological commitment he is probably smart enough not to believe the faith-based myth that neoliberalism provides economic stability and that any economic crises can be passed off as merely "adjustments".
He also knows that he will be long gone if any shit hits the fan.
However your reaction to my suggestion was ridicule and you mockingly claimed that I had fallen for a Tory/Johnson con. All Tories PMs were the same, you declared, and Johnson was not appreciably different to Thatcher. I think you might have even suggested that he was more right-wing than Thatcher.
(I am assuming that you don't think that Thatcher had 'no belief in anything other than herself. No ideology. Nothing.')
Welcome aboard.
I think you might have even suggested that he was more right-wing than Thatcher
Certainly not economically. He absolutely loves chucking taxpayers money around. Particularly in the direction of his mates
But Brexit is a right-wing political project that Thatcher would have baulked at. I know she loved a bit of flag-waving herself, but it was mainly posturing. Do you not think she'd have been absolutely horrified by the idea of erecting needless barriers to trade with our nearest neighbours? She was passionate about the single market and seemless trade. Boris should be too if he was a 'proper' Tory, but instead has put a bomb underneath all that for the sake of blue passports and a route into Downing Street
Certainly not economically.
Good to hear you confirm that.
So you think Johnson is possibly more right-wing than Thatcher on social issues? Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
And yes I agree with you, Thatcher was totally committed to the EU.
The “class war” is diminishing in importance, the left’s adherence to it’s doctrines part of the problems labour has
Point proved, the left fighting yesterday’s battles. What class is Mike Ashley? What class is Carol Kane of Boo Hoo?
The left are fighting the old class war not understanding that it’s all moved on,
social selection does exist, I’ll never be upper class, you could argue new classes exist, the new money class, the underclass, the Islington class etc
I don't understand this; so you're saying that 'class' doesn't matter, then you're saying it is just as real as it ever was?
I'm 'middle class'. But I grew up on a council estate, and was most definitely from 'working class' roots. So there is at least some limited social mobility. But class still very much exists, and is at the core of British politics. This is what those on the left are actually fighting against, rather than the imagined battle you seem to think they are waging. Probably because you don't actually know any real 'lefties', and simply make up a mental image of them based on stereotypes and caricatures.
the Islington class
I've seen this term badied about a bit on here, and I don't think those that refer to the 'Islington class' actually know what it means; the term 'the Islington Set' was coined in the 90s, and referred to Blair and his cronies, who lived in big, expensive town houses around the Angel, Canonbury and Highbury areas.
I think some of you desperately want to put Corbyn in with that 'set'. He most definitely isn't part of that, nowhere near it. He lives in a far less 'desirable' part of the borough. Starmer's house is worth approaching two million quid; Corbyn's is ex-local authority. Just to put that bit straight, so you understand that the 'Islington' thing was actually all about Blair. Awkward, I know, but there it is.
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
How about everything Priti Patel has ever said or done?
Though as far as I know Boris hasn't yet enacted any specific legislation against the 'tank-topped bum-boys' who he obviously has enormous respect for
Certainly not economically. He absolutely loves chucking taxpayers money around.
Thatcher burnt through a lot of taxpayers money for her projects. The massive increase in VAT is often forgotten as was the all the north sea oil money which she burnt through.
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
The proposed Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is pretty terrifying when you examine it closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/policing-bill-2021-data-surveillance-b1918664.html
He lives in a far less ‘desirable’ part of the borough
If you've live in the shitty end of Halifax, the finer details of the geography of the boroughs of London and their impact of house prices are immaterial, if you live in Islington, to those folks, you are by default; rich beyond the dream of Avarice. On the doorstep, Corbyn was "another London politician" with no connection to the poor areas like Bradshaw or Pellon. I don't think I'm "desperate" to label any Labour politician, it was just the reality of the North/South divide as it exists for these folk, on education, ambition, attainment, and outlook.
As for the class question: To my mind there are the Aristos and those that support them, and then there's the rest of us. That "the rest of us" can't agree a course of action amongst ourselves has been to the benefit of Aristos since the early middle ages onwards.
If you’ve live in the shitty end of Halifax
What if you live in the nice end of Wilmslow or Harrogate?
On the doorstep, Corbyn was “another London politician” with no connection to the poor areas like Bradshaw or Pellon
Blair was MP for Sedgefield; lived in Islington. The Islington slur is all about Blair; applying it to Corbyn is stupid. He's as far removed from the Islington Set as any of us.
The proposed Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is pretty terrifying when you examine it closely:
Indeed. And then we can get on to the current voter ID proposals which are the most brazen assault on certain specific groups to deprive them of their right to vote. Thats pretty right wing, bordering on fascism
He’s as far removed from the Islington Set as any of us.
When your outlook is "Folk from Sowerby Bridge are the Super Rich" then Islington or London in general is so far removed from your world, you may as well be from another planet. It not necessarily about Corbyn per se, it's just how these folk (and millions like them in the conurbation that stretches from Hull to Warrington along the M62 think) for them London is just Money, and the folk from there cannot possible understand their lives.
Quibbling that Corbyn is from a less well off bit is well into Angels on pinhead stuff...It's like saying OK, he's got a Ferrari, but it's in one of the stock colours...
To my mind there are the Aristos and those that support them, and then there’s the rest of us.
This. The greatest trick the elite play is convincing 'middle class' people that they are better than their working class neighbours. Most middle class people are still mostly working class, and rely on selling their labour to survive. They have far more in common with a homeless person or minimum wage gig worker than the millionaire classes who don't need to work. It always makes me laugh when I hear people on decent salaries in professional jobs deluding themselves about their social and economic status.
Class - there are many different definitions - ( correct me if I am wrong Ernie) but the marxist definition is all about your relationship to the means of production - Ie Ashley owns a series of companies - he is bourgeoisie. If you only have your labour to sell you are proletariat
Or you can have the socioeconomic class divisions if you prefer
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand. Its probably more important after years of right wing misrule. It defines everything from how long you live to how well off you are in retirement to how well your kids do at school
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand.
I don't think anyone has said that. Some have said that Labour can't rely on fighting a class war to get working class voters on side and be in a position to make changes for the better for them. I don't know. I do know that I would like Labour to be a government for all, which absolutely includes shifting tax and spend policy to benefit those that live paycheck to paycheck rather than those who make money with their money. It needs to explain why that would make this a better country for everyone to live in, from the poorest to the richest.
Though as far as I know Boris hasn’t yet enacted any specific legislation against the ‘tank-topped bum-boys’ who he obviously has enormous respect for
Which contrasts with Thatcher who was indeed responsible for anti-gay legislation, and which was left in place by John Major.
In the absent of you finding any legislation which Johnson is responsible for that is more reactionary than anything Thatcher brought in, I think it is fair to say that Johnson wasn't as right-wing as Thatcher on social issues too.
Btw tasteless and stupid jokes don't count. Johnson might think he is really funny comparing Muslim women in burkas with letterboxes but he hasn't even hinted at banning the burka, unlike "centrist" politicians in countries such France who are so appallingly islamophobic that government ministers applied concerted pressure on Decathlon until they agreed to stop selling sports hijabs.
