Jesus f****** christ! Just say the words 'Capital gains tax', or 'Wealth tax'. Pathetically incompetent.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1436004573798350849?s=20
Except Labour have only gained very slightly and most Tory votes have gone to the LDs.
It's just a poll. And tells you nothing about geographic spread. Tory votes going to the LibDems is exactly what we need in many seats.
Jesus f****** christ! Just say the words ‘Capital gains tax’, or ‘Wealth tax’.
Nope. Don't pretend to hang Social Care off any one tax. Pay for it from general taxation. Reform taxation across the board.
Dazh- that is progress!
Don’t pretend to hang Social Care off any one tax.
That's not the problem. The problem is his continued inability to say anything straight which gives anyone a clue about what the hell he or the labour party stand for or would do in government. The current tory (and more widely in the media and the public) attack line on Starmer is that he doesn't have a plan, only complains from the sidelines, and doesn't say what he believes in. This interview amplifies that and gives the tories everything they want.
That’s not the problem. The problem is his continued inability to say anything straight which gives anyone a clue about what the hell he or the labour party stand for or would do in government.
An election is 2+ yrs away!!
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
I'd say starmers statement pretty good tbh, not everyone is a frothing at the mouth eat the rich lefty, quite the opposite
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
Is there a happy medium? He was asked 6 times in that interview if he supported a wealth tax to pay for social care - he eventually said they would 'look at it'. Such inspiring and brave leadership...
'hundreds of focus groups and our expensive consultants say this policy won't go down well with the Daily Mail, so we don't know what to do really. People said we should actually oppose the government more, so we say they're doing it wrong, but it's really hard when you don't dare do anything different.'
For someone who claims not to give a toss about my opinions why the need to tell me to get a grip? Why is important to you? And important enough to add “for Christ’s sake”
That bit was a general address to everyone who claims to care about Labour. The factionalisation is killing the party.
As for the rest, read what I actually wrote before accusing me of comprehension failure. I said saying BJ was the most left wing tory PM since Thatcher was such an incredibly low bar it wasn't worth mentioning. It also seems to hinge entirely on one policy.
BJ is for BJ, nobody else. That doesn't speak of leftism to me. Just because Poll Tax was worse doesn't mean this is good by any measure. You honestly sound like you've bought the con hook, line and sinker.
An election is 2+ yrs away!!
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
But that avoids a sense of urgency. It takes time get this in place.
We are way past urgent and I would say that's not long enough to turn it around.
Yeah I would rather have lots of good anouncements that none. Recovery bonds anyone?
That bit was a general address to everyone who claims to care about Labour. The factionalisation is killing the party.
Twas ever thus
Labour have a golden opportunity now to start talking about MMT based thinking and shift the debate away from the govt finances being the same as a household’s, but instead they think pretending to be a low tax, austere, ‘economically responsible’ party is the answer. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
For sure, Labour are constrained by Neoliberal thinking.
They lose these debates all the time.
was a general address to everyone
Okay fairy nuff. A bit misleading though writing it after copying and pasting a quote of mine and providing no other references.
It's good to hear that you presumably still don't give a toss about my opinions 😉
Edit : I hadn't read your edited post. Yeah I get that you don't agree with me. And if you think that I 'honestly sound like I've bought the con hook, line and sinker' that's up you, presumably you think the same about Larry Elliott and all the other commentators in the FT and Guardian who are saying pretty much the same thing.
‘hundreds of focus groups and our expensive consultants say this policy won’t go down well with the Daily Mail, so we don’t know what to do really. People said we should actually oppose the government more, so we say they’re doing it wrong, but it’s really hard when you don’t dare do anything different.’
I dont disagree, but you want policies that will help those that need it & help you get elected to do that.
Labour has struggled with that for some time
Starmer could be very straight on taxes he would increase/reform which would largely affect the better off. He is not going to lose much from doing so as the selfish well off are lost to the Tories and always will be. The less selfish well off who don't vote tory are not going to be turned away from increases as they want a fairer society even if they have to pay their part.
not everyone is a frothing at the mouth eat the rich lefty
Armrest is a rich right-winger. He's hardly going to endorse cannibalism...
The factionalisation is killing the party.
But which faction is it, that is seeking to expel anyone who disagrees with the right-wing neoliberal agenda that the party elite are pushing? Many factions have co-existed within Labour for many decades; only now are we seeing one elite group with power, seeking to destroy any vestiges of the party's traditional core values.
Pathetically incompetent.
Sums up Armrest perfectly.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/are-taxes-on-the-rich-too-high-or-low-in-britain
If you play with the drop-down menu you will see that even 45% of Tory voters think that the rich aren't paying enough tax, compared to the 7% of Tory voters who think the rich are paying too much.
The ground couldn't be more fertile for Labour.
And yet they sit on their arses too terrified of the Tory press.
Yeah I get that you don’t agree with me. And if you think that I ‘honestly sound like I’ve bought the con hook, line and sinker’ that’s up you, presumably you think the same about Larry Elliott and all the other commentators in the FT and Guardian who are saying pretty much the same thing.
Correct.
It's not left wing and neither is he. To claim otherwise is to have fallen for the con.
Also, weren't you lambasting the Guardian as anything but a lefty publication the other day? Apologies if it wasn't you.
Yeah quite likely me, I regularly lambast the Guardian.
It’s not left wing and neither is he.
Do you really not understand the concept of left relative to another position?
Johnson is clearly to the left of Thatcher. But he is to the right of Harold Macmillan. He is also to the left of David Cameron and John Major. But to the right of Ted Heath.
There's no "Tory con" involved here. Johnson has never claimed to be left-wing. But he has claimed not to be a thatcherite Tory, he prefers to see himself as an interventionist Tory similar to Michael Heselstine.
If you think my comments are hysterically funny and that I have fallen for a con hook, line, and sinker, as you apparently do, here's more stuff to give you a laugh :
https://www.ft.com/content/ad5061b8-6a16-42de-b5a9-824cf15b84b6
Margaret Thatcher raised the standard for the small state, public thrift, tax cuts, and the “creative” destruction wrought by free markets. Britain’s steel, shipbuilding and coal industries fell victim to her conviction that if a business needed state subsidy it should not be in business. Prosperity was rooted in the endeavours of enterprising individuals.
One supposes she was turning in her grave this week as Johnson trumpeted his organising mission as increased state support for “jobs, business and economic growth”. The scale of the reversal was laid out in his legislative agenda for a new session of parliament. He has called it one-nation conservatism. True Thatcherites might prefer “treachery”.
public thrift
Talk to anyone working in local government or education. Belt tightening enforced by central government is ongoing, but some people conveniently look the other way.
tax cuts
Inheritance tax. Stamp duty. Anything that benefits the well off rather then the working poor. Johnson cuts taxes for those with, and hits those without with every higher tax bills. Thatcher was also more keen on making tax more regressive, rather than actually reducing how much the total tax take was. See your spot on description of the the poll tax. Two peas in a pod on taxation. And on cutting and withdrawing benefits.
“creative” destruction
Johnson’s MO.
Kelvin, you're not wrong.
The right clip and Starmer can look good
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1436388471745220615?s=19
As Johnson stumbles from crisis to self made crisis, there's ground for Starmer to take
The next few years could well be a shitshow
Boriing & sensible is appealing at the right time, eg May or Major
I posted that before, I thought what he was saying is good but he comes across as quite priggish and sort of constipated. It's also all rather hollow when he doesn't have an alternative.
Ernie I understand completely. What I don't understand is why such a tenuous and marginal position would convince you the argument has been won.
It's not.
I'm sorry squirrel you've lost me, I'm convinced what argument has been won?
I genuinely don't know what you are referring to.
I must have been confused between the Guardian article you linked to that Kelvin was talking about and what was actually said. Lost the thread, the joys of a forum with less functionality than one 20 years ago.
See top of previous page.
Never mind, my mistake, sorry. As you were.
Johnson is clearly to the left of Thatcher. But he is to the right of Harold Macmillan. He is also to the left of David Cameron and John Major. But to the right of Ted Heath.
All the people I have seen interviewed on Johnson say he has no ideology except to be liked
See top of previous page.
Ah that. I didn't link that article it was binners that did, he thought Larry Elliott made a good case for MMT in it.
And yes, Larry Elliott claimed that the left had "won the argument". Do I agree? Well I think the narrative is changing, as the article mentions, and have look at my post at the top of this page.
The argument in favour of austerity clearly has less support these days, as do tax cut policies. I think neoliberalism is in retreat now, the sort of things that Thatcher espoused would lack much public support these days. And nationalising the utilities enjoys more support than privatisation.
Johnson is a populist whose instincts have served him well, he's PM FFS, well above his station.
So do I think the left has won the argument? Well I certainly think that it has made inroads, probably as much due to the self-evident failure and limitation of neoliberalism as that of the left offering a convincing argument. The left mostly doesn't have a platform to reach the wider public.
And if the left had really won the argument we wouldn't have a Tory government today, even one which is attempting to present an alternative post-thatcherism agenda.
All the people I have seen interviewed on Johnson say he has no ideology except to be liked
Absolutely. I have repeatedly made the point that imo Johnson is not really a politician, he is just a showman who happens to use politics as a vehicle for his act.
The advantage of that is that he is ideologically flexible, hence his rapid response with government intervention when the pandemic kicked off.
Rapid response? That one’s a joke, yes? The guy who talked about how by not following the likes of Spain and Italy with measures to stop the spread of Covid we would gain an economic advantage and keep the world moving? That rapid response? Shaking the hands of patients with Covid? That rapid response? Opening schools for one day in January? That Rapid response? Johnson has been slow to act at every stage of this pandemic, and we’ve paid the economic and personal cost of making him PM.
Over 18 months later and people asked to isolate are still only eligible for basic sick pay. It was the first and most necessary intervention to make isolating when asked possible without financial hardship, and he still hasn’t made the necessary response. Paying the full wages of even well paid furloughed staff, while expecting key and low paid staff to isolate to protect other people on the pittance that is the statutory minimum wage. Still… he gave us Brexit, so he can’t be that bad… where as Starmer is a rich right winger who can not be trusted on anything, apparently.
What hell are you talking about Kelvin?
Shaking the hands of patients with Covid?
You don't for a minute think I'm talking about that, so why pretend that you do?
You know damn well I'm talking about the economic response which however inadequate it might have been was still considerably more than a thatcherite PM such as John Major ( remember his response to the recession of the early 90s?) or Cameron would have committed themselves to.
And has resulted in considerable backlash from the right-wing press.
Covid socialism :
Yeah, right, "shaking hands"..... that was exactly what I meant. FFS
It’s nonsense. The Telegraph that is. And Johnson. Keep lapping it up.
hence his rapid response with government intervention when the pandemic kicked off.
I think you’ll find that was nothing to do with our present PM, but all the work of his successor
Think of Boris as a sort of ceremonial figurehead, a bit like the queen. He doesn’t do thinking. He’s happy to smile and wave, and take the credit when one of his underlings occasionally does something vaguely competent
The backlash from the right-wing press isn't, it is very real.
All the other Tory PMs since Ted Heath would have been very unlikely to have acted how Johnson did.
The difference is that Johnson has no ideological commitment to anything other than himself, which makes him very flexible.
I read one commentator in the FT today describe him as having 'no fixed political abode", which hit the nail on the head imo.
Still… he gave us Brexit, so he can’t be that bad… where as Starmer is a rich right winger who can not be trusted on anything, apparently.
It's stuff like that ^^ that drives home to me how futile it is to attempt to have a reasonable discussion with you Kelvin, daft, petty, and puerile comments, is what you ultimately rely on.
All Tories are bad. Johnson is a Tory. There is nothing more to discuss. It's so simple.
Think of Boris as a sort of ceremonial figurehead, a bit like the queen. He doesn’t do thinking. He’s happy to smile and wave, and take the credit when one of his underlings occasionally does something vaguely competent
You do realise that he's prime minister, don't you? And that it is very possible that he will the next general election?
But despite that he's incapable of thought, just smiling and waving?
Well he doesn't sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he's been so successful running rings round the opposition, what does that say about them, apart from the fact that they are no match for someone who can smile and wave?
All Tories are bad. Johnson is a Tory.
Not all Tories are bad. Johnson is one of the worst though.
Bread and circuses
Brexit Britain has the Prime Minister it deserves
Johnson isn’t a Tory. He’s an English Nationalist.
Hmmmmm…. Combining nationalist flag waving and vaguely socialist economic policies. If only someone had thought of that before? They could probably come up with a catchy title for it
But that's just it, all Tories ARE bad.
But some are worse than others.
Do you want Blue ones or Red ones?
It's all very well hoping for a better class of politician, or even a better discourse, but we live with the electorate on our doorstep. The agenda is driven by the 'right', the narrative is one contained and controlled by it, the outcomes are necessarily confined as a consequence.
One thing is certain, you can only change it from within. And that means being the Party of government. And that means sometimes being able to pinch your f***ing nose coz some of it stinks.
But that’s just it, all Tories ARE bad.
Yes they are. We need to remember that even those few that seem more reasonable are still MPs for the Tory party, a party they chose to represent and a party with a twisted view of society and people.
One thing is certain, you can only change it from within. And that means being the Party of government. And that means sometimes being able to pinch your f***ing nose coz some of it stinks.
Yes, some of us on this thread get that while others are waiting for a ideologically pure Labour party before they can support it. The last Labour government were far from ideal but I would rather have had Blair/Brown whoever running thing for the last 10 years given the choice.
Yeah, right, “shaking hands”….. that was exactly what I meant. FFS
Kelvin listed a bunch of areas where Johnson was slow to act, all of them valid. Whether Thatcher or Major (or Starmer) would have been slower is debatable, but Johnson's delay cost thousands of lives.
Yes, some of us on this thread get that while others are waiting for a ideologically pure Labour party before they can support it.
What a sage you are! I thought Corbyn brought you to Labour anyway?
Corbyn was hardly 'ideologically pure', he is more of a Leveller than a Digger. There's also an assumption that parliament can and will deliver, I see the workplace and the streets as greater levers for change.
Kelvin listed a bunch of areas where Johnson was slow to act, all of them valid.
Maybe valid in a completely different context, certainly not valid on the context I was referring to.
Kelvin knows damn well that I was referring to the "big state" response to the pandemic not some bollocks about shaking hands
It is widely accepted that Johnson has taken a very unthatcherite approach, from comment writers of Guardian and FT to those of the Daily Mail and Telegraph, hence comments such as 'covid socialism'.
When in the recession of the early 1980s unemployment was rising to the levels of the Great Depression of the thirties, Thatcher did nothing and continued policies which were guaranteed to make the situation worse. There was no role for the state, the market would solve everything, it was "adjustment".
When ten years later there was another recession under Tory rule which this time had a devastating affect on home owners, and in which the change from profit to loss in construction was the greatest of any industry in UK history, John Major sat on his arse doing nothing, there was no role for the state, the market was "adjusting", it would solve everything. Consequently it resulted in the highest levels of home repossessions ever, with all the associated human misery it caused.
When Johnson came out of hospital he announced before the cameras "there is such a thing as society", a direct attack on Thatcher and to signal the role of the state in the ongoing pandemic.
All politics is class-based, Johnson is there to serve the interests of the existing ruling class, that couldn't possibly be more obvious. But to narrow down the narrative to simplistic nonsense "all Tories are bad, Johnson is a Tory - that's all you need to know" is pathetic.
As pathetic as Kelvin's previous comments that I must be a fan of "Mr Blobby", because I don't follow the script of just inanely criticising him and only pointing out how terrible he is.
When Johnson came out of hospital he announced before the cameras “there is such a thing as society”, a direct attack on Thatcher and to signal the role of the state in the ongoing pandemic.
Heh! Suggesting a link between anything that comes out of his mouth and an action or principle is a bit far fetched 🙂
In this case he apparently went on to talk about piles of bodies.
narrow down the narrative to simplistic nonsense “all Tories are bad, Johnson is a Tory – that’s all you need to know” is pathetic.
Wow, couldn't have it better. As Binners pointed out Johnson isn't a serious Tory anyway, he's just used them as a vehicle, which does reflect badly on the traditional Tory party for letting him.
Intrinsic right of centre politics aren't evil, they don't automatically abandon people, often the ultimate goals are the same, it's how we get there that's different, a difference of opinion, just because you dont share the same view doesn't make the opposing view evil.
Anyway back on topic, Johnson us can out and out populist, he has no morals, no responsibility, nothing he won't do if he thinks he can get away with. FWIW Starmer is my kind of politician, sober, intelligent, little bit left of centre, however he's absolutely not the man to take Johnson down. We need someone politics light with lots of character who will step aside once in power to let the serious politicians back in. I suppose I'll have to wait a bit longer for my moon on a stick.
What a sage you are! I thought Corbyn brought you to Labour anyway?
Yes I am gifted or maybe just realistic on what can be achieved within the UK.
I first voted Labour in 1987 and continued to do so until 2019 when I voted Green so if anything Corbyn did the opposite although I did support his approach in 2017 it was clear by 2019 that he was going nowhere.
Yes I know the Green party is going nowhere, even though in current times you would think it would, but I can vote based on principles where I live as the 20 year safe seat tory gets 65% of the vote...
All politics is class-based, Johnson is there to serve the interests of the existing ruling class, that couldn’t possibly be more obvious. .
Errrr what class was Corbyn? Starmer, Blair, Brown, Miliband? Kinnock was the last working class leader of Labour
The "class war" is diminishing in importance, the left's adherence to it's doctrines part of the problems labour has
