Marr push back – Tories have a plan, you don’t, so would you vote for it.
really? What is it?
their lazy stereotypes
I have always assumed that your total lack of self-awareness was genuine binners. You express it with so much passion that it's never occur to me that it could be anything other than genuine.
But now I'm starting to think it's possible that you are in fact just taking the piss. It seems inconceivable to me that anyone could truly lack that much self-awareness.
I know of no one on here who caricatures people with lazy stereotypes more than you do. From 'the left' to the working-class, you present a rigid stereotype which you endlessly repeat over and over and over again, stubbornly refusing to let go.
In case you didn’t notice the ‘working classes’ in the north just voted for a racist, Eton-educated, silver spoon Tory, daily Telegraph journalist
'The Left’ has some quaint 1970’s idea of what they believe the ‘working class’ (whatever that is) should want. And they’re simultaneous absolutely bloody furious at those very same people for failing to conform to their lazy stereotypes and get in line and vote for them
So you binners in contrast aren't absolutely bloody furious that the ‘working classes’ in the north just voted for a racist, Eton-educated, silver spoon Tory, daily Telegraph journalist?
It is not the impression which you project.
Although 'seething' would be a better description. To be fair you do appear to be angry with everyone..... the Tories, the Labour Party, voters, London-centric Southerners, whoever they are you are probably furious with them.
Btw both quotes came from the same post.
really? What is it?
Sadly doesn't seem to matter - headline story is more important than substance
really? What is it?
There is not yet a policy or a plan, even though Johnson promised one. Even this detail (an unrelated shift of tax towards the lower paid and away from the rich) is currently just rumour.
The idea that Starmer should dump Labour’s current (admittedly very broad brush) policy on social care, and announce a hypothecated tax rise right now, mid-term, while in no position to implement it, just because Johnson might be doing so at some point, is a trap. Yes, one that interviewers will be happy to play along with, but not one Labour should allow themselves to be pressed into stepping in.
kelvin
Full Member
but now you’re having a go at him for not being more pro brexit?He wasn’t saying that, was he.
Posted 23 minutes ago
REPLY | REPORT
No he wasn't saying that.
He was saying that the man who appointed Keir Starmer, a committed Remainer, as Shadow Brexit Secretary, and committed the Labour Party to a second referendum, was more pro-Brexit than a man who led a party whose sole purpose was to leave the EU.
It is hard to imagine a more ridiculous statement. Although binners doesn't seem to have a problem.
while in no position to implement it, just because Johnson might be doing so at some point, is a trap.
Aside from Starmer could attack it effectively by doing what that cabinet minister did and pointing out the leaked approach is deeply flawed. He could then go on and attack the Johnsons policy of trialling policies by leaking them to sympathetic press.
There seems to be a trend to announce everything is a trap and therefore silence is the response. At some point Starmer has to demonstrate some vision.
Specific policies aside - Starmer and Labour- need to be setting a vision for what Labour is and can offer - and how different to the Tories.
That's a pure leadership role - sadly not sure he's the person to do that. But if he can't get some energy something going on the back of conference we are in even deeper trouble.
He also needs to stop listening to those voices that are encouraging factional score settling. Nobody outside the party/narrow band of political nerds gives a shit but it takes up a huge amount of bandwidth within the party nationally and on the ground. If ever there was an place for pragmatism for the benefit of electability ( in terms of internal party coherence) it's on this
Lisa Nandy said on Marr this morning that she couldn’t comment on the social care plans because they don’t know what they are yet. That sums up everything to do with Starmers approach. Say nothing, don’t offer an opinion, let alone what they would do about it if in govt, and defer to the tories at every juncture. They couldn’t be more pathetic if they tried.
Lisa Nandy said on Marr this morning that she couldn’t comment on the social care plans because they don’t know what they are yet.
Not so stupid, is she.
Johnson is using media leeks and prompts to try and get Labour to help him avoid the kind of mess that May got into when it comes to paying for care. The mess that at one point looked like it might have delivered a Labour, and Corbyn, led government (for the record, I still wish we’d seen that happen). They should not indulge him with his “brief it anonymously and see the response” approach to policy making.
She’s not commented on it as she can see it for what it is, because they do it all the time
It’s kite flying
... but at some point Labour are going to have to do something to start to turn opinion. It can't be left to a final manifesto election run-in.
As it stands the Tory lead narrows in the polls when they do a specific **** up and then lengthens when they are just bouncing along with generalised incompetence and undermining liberties, public institutions and shafting poor people.
If we can't start to turn the tide we are never going to win an election - not least because the Tories can pick when to hold.
... this why I keep banging on about the need for a vision. But to create and generate energy around that needs a visionary leader. Sadly, not sure that's Starmer, even more sadly I think he will need to lose a GE before he goes.
I voted for Starmer as leader, as the best of what was on offer - not least as he seemed to offer a unifying voice at the time. But it's not really working out - some of which is clearly pandemic related.
This year's conference is key in setting put that vision and tone for the party. I really hope it's positive. Not least as I'll be back on the doors for the first time since Batley and Spen and could do with something positive to say
In what seems like a now familiar pattern Andy Burnham is coming up with suggestions, and the reform of social care is an area he’s been flagging up for years now.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1434449582927323146?s=19
Banging your head against a centrist do-nothing pole.
Yeah but he's doing this and doing that.
They are so smart at doing nothing in reality.
In what seems like a now familiar pattern Andy Burnham is coming up with suggestions, and this is an area he’s been flagging up for years now
Amazing.
The debate could be framed - we can afford the social spending without taxing anyone. That could be a Labour response. We don't run out of £££.
Labour in the Tory trap again for the nth time this year.
Banging your head against a centrist do-nothing pole.
Yeah but he’s doing this and doing that.
They are so smart at doing nothing in reality.
But the Red Wall Racists have got what they want now, so how can you win them back? Even when their standard of living is going down the toilet just run a story about hoardes arriving from Bongo Bongo Land, wave a Union Jack and show a few photos of bulldogs. Job jobbed.
In extremis do a 'free pint of Carling with your tenth' offer in the Sun.
This sounds pretty reasonable from Andy and a policy that Boris wouldn’t even dream of suggesting
“How can it be right to ask ‘generation rent’, already saddled with student debt, to pay for the care of a generation more likely to have generous pensions and to own their own homes?” he said.
“The fairest way of providing social care is on NHS terms through a national care service, and the fairest way of raising the funding to pay for it is by taxing wealth, not work. The government should be looking at reforming taxes and reliefs on assets, land, pensions, property and excessive earnings and profits before hitting younger, low-paid workers with the bill.”
I’d be interested to know how much he’s liaising with Starmers office? A lot, you’d hope. Obviously, not being an MP, he’s freer to make statements like that
Maybe in light of Tory kite-flying they’re doing some of their own. I’d certainly hope that this is the direction of Labour Party thinking
Lisa Nandy said on Marr this morning that she couldn’t comment on the social care plans because they don’t know what they are yet.
And, they are about to have a huge row about it at Conference.
I personally know that David Evans is strongly opposed to "taxing the rich" as I had a one to one conversation with him many years ago on that very subject, I suspect that these days he's even more right-wing. And I also doubt whether Peter Mandelson thinks any different.
David Evans and Peter Mandelson appear to be the two people who are currently advising Starmer. I doubt whether they share Starmer's moral case for socialism or his stance on economic justice.
If Starmer repeats this as a policy after the Tories have specific tax plans he will be a mockery
I believe it was an inherited policy from the JC days
I know of no one on here who caricatures people with lazy stereotypes more than you do. From ‘the left’ to the working-class, you present a rigid stereotype which you endlessly repeat over and over and over again, stubbornly refusing to let go.
There are some posting on this thread who run a close second to Binners on this.
This year’s conference is key in setting put that vision and tone for the party. I really hope it’s positive.
Starmer is going to keep things tight until conference, either because he has no ideas or because he wants to use the platform to make an impact and get on TV looking passionate etc
This thread could arguably be closed up to that point as it's clearly the moment he'll sink or swim as LOTO
There are some posting on this thread who run a close second to Binners on this.
Yup
^^^
I'll hold my hand up to being a centrist realist rather than an extremist fantasist.
“The fairest way of providing social care is on NHS terms through a national care service, and the fairest way of raising the funding to pay for it is by taxing wealth, not work. The government should be looking at reforming taxes and reliefs on assets, land, pensions, property and excessive earnings and profits before hitting younger, low-paid workers with the bill.”
Absolutely. Don’t deliver up one easily identified and hypothecated tax rise for the Tories to spend the next few years pinning on you. Propose updating all the tax system, including a shift from earnings to capital.
How or whether we increase tax take isn’t even the issue that needs solving… it’s how you spend and organise to deliver the care. Who provides the care. Where the workers will come from. How they will be paid. Who owns the facilities. How is any private involvement rewarded. Should local or National government control spending and audit the quality delivered. What choices should individuals face/enjoy over how and where they are cared for. Can people top up their care costs. On and on it goes…
That’s the plan that is needed. Focus on taxes is just an easy media narrative to avoid the really hard issue of delivery.
I’d be watching the SNP all the way, they’re learning, and will be learning, so much that is useful to us in the rest of the UK.
Propose updating all the tax system, including a shift from earnings to capital.
Sorry I am now confused. I thought you were in favour of Lisa Nandy's silence on the matter as opposed to doing the sensible thing of a)challenging it as a tax on the working and b)challenge the tory approaches of testing policies by leaks.
There is no plan for her to comment on. Until it is announced, be dismissive of the rumours of an NI focussed tax rise. Don’t focus on tax take at all, but on delivery.
It is a separate, but important, issue that we focus on income not wealth too much in our current tax system. It has nothing to do with care.
Johnson promised a plan for care, he doesn’t have one. Repeat that point until he’s brave enough to publish a plan, and then answer questions about it.
the fairest way of raising the funding to pay for it is by taxing wealth, not work
Land value tax?
Although isn't that a bit leftie...
.how would the super-rich 5% hide their wealth?
Talking of a lack of real plans to tackle the big issues we face…
https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1434455960899182592?s=21
And talking about “real democracy”…
https://twitter.com/davidlammy/status/1434489453058330627?s=21
https://twitter.com/davidlammy/status/1433393176547577858?s=21
Binners your partisan tribalism is ridiculous. Had Corbyn said what burnham did (‘national care service’, where have I heard that before?) you’d be on here wailing about 6th form commie fantasists, but because it’s come from your old mate it’s ‘pretty reasonable’. And the post before that you said stating a position on social care was falling into a trap, but then Burnham does exactly that and you’re gushing with praise! 🙄
I think Burnham is very much at risk of falling into the (pick a tax) trap… but then he’s not part of the front bench team, so his hand waving isn’t committing Starmer and his team to anything that can be hung around their necks come the election.
EDIT: To be fair to Burnham (I’m not a fan), he was just giving examples of all the taxes that could do with being updated to shift the tax burden, rather than suggesting hypothecation to pay for care. He’s on the right track.
Falling into a trap = even the potential of doing anything the Daily Mail doesn't like.
And this is why Starmer is too scared to do anything other than snipe away at the periphery.
To be honest I don't see much risk in the Burnham comments, they could and should have come from the frontbench lead on this. So that's a Jon Asworth and Rachel Reeves tag team
You even give it a snappy by line, "stop taxing work, tax wealth fairly"
Nothing to specific to be pulled apart on, those that can pay do, those struggling to get by don't, the left should love it as should pretty much anyone else who gets the issues of the dementia lottery
You even give it a snappy by line, “stop taxing work, tax wealth fairly”
Don't forget to stick a Union Jack on it or you can forget it.
And the post before that you said stating a position on social care was falling into a trap, but then Burnham does exactly that and you’re gushing with praise
Andy can say what the hell he likes. He’s not a Labour MP, let alone a shadow cabinet member, so he has no part in the formulation of policy
Any comments are just that: the speculation of a Labour Party member, albeit a very high profile one
The reform of social care has been a pet subject of his that he’s been going on about for 10+ years so this is hardly something he’s just blurted out
Are you still a member? Perhaps we could call a joint press conference to express our musings?
Don’t forget to stick a Union Jack on it or you can forget it.
Do or don't it doesn't make a difference for me
The last "flag shagger" I saw was just off the Rochdale Canal, but he was clearly a Scot so I suppose he gets a free pass with his saltires
snipe away
atfrom the periphery
FTFY.
Andy can say what the hell he likes. He’s not a Labour MP
So only those who aren’t labour MPs can say something that actually matters to anyone? Well at least we agree on their uselessness.
Whatever you may think of Novara media have a listen to this interview and see whether you think Young Labour is really some kind of extreme leftist threat to the Labour Party.
To me Jess Barnard comes across really well and is exactly the kind of smart, engaging, thoughtful person Keir Starmer ought to be doing his best to encourage. 🤷♂️
Do or don’t it doesn’t make a difference for me
The last “flag shagger” I saw was just off the Rochdale Canal, but he was clearly a Scot so I suppose he gets a free pass with his saltires
It makes enough of a difference to enough of the people otherwise Johnson, Farage, Cummings et al wouldn't do it.
To me Jess Barnard comes across really well and is exactly the kind of smart, engaging, thoughtful person Keir Starmer ought to be doing his best to encourage. 🤷♂️
Yep, but it ain't me you've got to convince.
It is either cash in hand Carling man or the huge number of sensible middle class, middle aged folk who know Brexit and populist politics are shit and dangerous, but still don't trust Labour with their jobs.
Jeez Danny you need to let go of your prejudices. It's not helpful.
I'm assuming you're middle class, middle aged and sensible?
I’m assuming you’re middle class, middle aged and sensible?
Yes that is how I would characterise myself. The very person the Tories (ENP) are telling Carling Man to hate. The ones who have been characterised as WFH bedwetters who need to get back in the bloody office.
In actual fact the ones who have been working from home, working longer hours than before, not furloughed at any stage and will continue to do so as I'm happy to give my previous commuting time to my employer free. The ones that often say to me "I don't want to be governed by an 'entertainer', I want to be governed by someone sensible, thinking and a bit dull. Just someone competent will do."
There is no political home for us normal folk in this current climate of needing to be volcanically angry about something all the time.
There is no political home for us normal folk in this current climate of needing to be volcanically angry about something all the time.
Are you taking the piss with that statement? You’re the most angry person on here.
I not sure Starmsky's main mission is to get elected and that would explain his apparent indifference to his poor ratings.
Are you taking the piss with that statement? You’re the most angry person on here.
Flinging words onto an Internet forum doesn't make me an angry person. Disdainful is probably the best adjective to describe my general opinion of the UK right now.
🤷♂️
Starmsky
His instinct is to go for the middle class sensible vote, but too many of us are locked up in safe Tory seats.
His realpolitik says try to win back the Red Wall Racists - but to do that you have to out-nasty the New Tories on immigration, minorities etc.
He's trying to walk both sides of the street and getting nowhere as a result.
Lisa Nandy chatting on righty Times Radio with Tom Newton Dunn (known for his documented botched conspiracy connection to Aryan Unity / antisemitic sources during the 2019 Labour Campaign ) - discussing the antisemitic Corbyn electoral damage!
YOU CAN'T MAKE IT UP.
Lisa Nandy has a small majority.
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1434472508586176514?s=19
